Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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hi, one and all! the bump returns! bigger and a girl! found out last week, so much for my so called instinct that it is a boy.
i have had two letters, both long awaited...from des browne and re the inquest!
it is looking like there is going to be the pre inquest review held in trowbridge in february 07. the pre inquest review is due to the fact that it is felt that the case is of signifcant complexity than first thought. take that and make of it what you will. i'll be sure to keep you posted!
des browne...has sent me the long awaited reponse tot he petition and my hassling of him! interesting that blairs office stated that a minister from the MoD would be writing to me...i was expecting some minion not the secretary state of defence, as pleased as i am that he has finally put pen to paper. i wonder if he knows that blair describes him in such a non descript way!
more importantly, the content of the letter.
blah, blah, hot air etc!three ac have been fitted and we have a demanding schedule in place to fit the rest over the coming months! as outlined by CAS we are fitting ESF to all those ac that operate in the highest threat environment and which most conseqently most at risk from the formed attack that caused XV179 to crash. these ac are fitted with a range of defensive measures, as well as other systems to provide a level of protection in proportion to the threat faced. not all of our hercules ac, however, operate within this threat environment and indeed some are not deployed to operations at all.
we are not aware of the past requests for ESF outlined in your letter to the PM, but we would of course be happy to recieve copies of any documents that you have in order to understand, and llearn letters from the circumstances of any such request and the decisions taken at the time.
in march this year we contracted marshalls aerospace to undertake work to fit the majority of our hercules ac with ESF.
the info from the letter is in no particular order, nonetheless, that is the official line. what can you class as a majority of the fleet, i would think that the number can be interpreted differently. we all know that the ac have huge demands placed on them and in some cases are at the on their last legs and are prone to breakdown. so a protected plane in operation breaks down and we need a new ac. the demands on the fleet is high and so that the only plane available is an unprotected one. what's going to happen, a crew are going to be left stranded as there is only ac minus foam and it can't possibly go to the high threat area, or you are going to send in the said ac and it will be shot at, then come down and BoI / repeated history here we come. i keep hearing from those in high places how bob was thought of extremely highly at all levels as were no doubt all those souls on board that day. well, i say this, if they were so well thought of, why the hell can you not, in their memory, or name not get it through your skulls that the tatics/strategy only go so far for the herc crews as the planes are so slow moving that you will protect the fine and brave herc community. there are no words that can be said that will reassure me the fleet and it's crews are safe unless 100% are with foam.
i am sure that the officail line would not confirm all the hercs will be done, as that is tantamount to admitting that we were right and our pressure has worked,as it will highlight their failings and how wrong they are/were. i have no reason to disbelieve my well placed sources. i do however have every reason have reason to disbelieve the penny pinching politicians!
the aforementioned previous requests for previous requests for esf were the ones/incidences set out that you sent me nige dating from 78,82 etc. it's sad that they think that denying any knowledge of those requests does not mean that is true. those incidences couldn't have gone passed unnoticed. it's interseting that they deny it, and yet fish for the documents!
well done everyone.
i have had two letters, both long awaited...from des browne and re the inquest!
it is looking like there is going to be the pre inquest review held in trowbridge in february 07. the pre inquest review is due to the fact that it is felt that the case is of signifcant complexity than first thought. take that and make of it what you will. i'll be sure to keep you posted!
des browne...has sent me the long awaited reponse tot he petition and my hassling of him! interesting that blairs office stated that a minister from the MoD would be writing to me...i was expecting some minion not the secretary state of defence, as pleased as i am that he has finally put pen to paper. i wonder if he knows that blair describes him in such a non descript way!
more importantly, the content of the letter.
blah, blah, hot air etc!three ac have been fitted and we have a demanding schedule in place to fit the rest over the coming months! as outlined by CAS we are fitting ESF to all those ac that operate in the highest threat environment and which most conseqently most at risk from the formed attack that caused XV179 to crash. these ac are fitted with a range of defensive measures, as well as other systems to provide a level of protection in proportion to the threat faced. not all of our hercules ac, however, operate within this threat environment and indeed some are not deployed to operations at all.
we are not aware of the past requests for ESF outlined in your letter to the PM, but we would of course be happy to recieve copies of any documents that you have in order to understand, and llearn letters from the circumstances of any such request and the decisions taken at the time.
in march this year we contracted marshalls aerospace to undertake work to fit the majority of our hercules ac with ESF.
the info from the letter is in no particular order, nonetheless, that is the official line. what can you class as a majority of the fleet, i would think that the number can be interpreted differently. we all know that the ac have huge demands placed on them and in some cases are at the on their last legs and are prone to breakdown. so a protected plane in operation breaks down and we need a new ac. the demands on the fleet is high and so that the only plane available is an unprotected one. what's going to happen, a crew are going to be left stranded as there is only ac minus foam and it can't possibly go to the high threat area, or you are going to send in the said ac and it will be shot at, then come down and BoI / repeated history here we come. i keep hearing from those in high places how bob was thought of extremely highly at all levels as were no doubt all those souls on board that day. well, i say this, if they were so well thought of, why the hell can you not, in their memory, or name not get it through your skulls that the tatics/strategy only go so far for the herc crews as the planes are so slow moving that you will protect the fine and brave herc community. there are no words that can be said that will reassure me the fleet and it's crews are safe unless 100% are with foam.
i am sure that the officail line would not confirm all the hercs will be done, as that is tantamount to admitting that we were right and our pressure has worked,as it will highlight their failings and how wrong they are/were. i have no reason to disbelieve my well placed sources. i do however have every reason have reason to disbelieve the penny pinching politicians!
the aforementioned previous requests for previous requests for esf were the ones/incidences set out that you sent me nige dating from 78,82 etc. it's sad that they think that denying any knowledge of those requests does not mean that is true. those incidences couldn't have gone passed unnoticed. it's interseting that they deny it, and yet fish for the documents!
well done everyone.
hello one and all, just to let you know that i have checked my earlier info about all the hercs being fitted. i can tell you a well placed source has confirmed what i had been told about all the hercs being done. THEY ARE!!!!!......
"we are fitting ESF to all those ac that operate in the highest threat environment and which most conseqently most at risk from the formed attack that caused XV179 to crash".
"we are fitting ESF to all those ac that operate in the highest threat environment and which most conseqently most at risk from the formed attack that caused XV179 to crash".
So it's to be a girl Chappie! A word to the wise, don't waste any time in deciding on her name(s), these things are best not left until the taxi to the hospital! Perhaps this Forum could assist you in suggesting appropriate ones? If so may I get the ball rolling? Have you thought about Prunella? A lovely name of a lovely actress, with a voice to die for, though you would have to wait a while for that perhaps. But how appropriate I hear you say! Very kind of you, but really it's nothing, nothing!
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any name suggestions would be great, i especially need to know ones that mean survivor, precious gift, blessing etc. reason why? i found out yesterday at best she'll need major surgery at worst disabled. just when you think that life can't kick you anymore. losing bob came at the end of two horrific years, now this. i've tried/waited over five years for her and now i don't even know if i'll even get to take her home. i must be such a horrible person because if there is anything in the truth of karma i am paying,big time. i've another scan on monday, in the mean time i'm going to try and get my head around how i'm going to cope with this.
Chappie, I'm so very sorry, please forgive my flippant post. It will take a lot of character and courage to see you through this challenge, and everyone who has got to know you on this forum knows that you have both in abundance. I'm certain that I speak for us all when I say that our thoughts and prayers are for your daughter, yourself and your family. Stay strong Chappie, and you will come through this. You are a very special person, your tenacity and resolve to see your brother's comrades properly protected as they do their duty on our behalf has been an inspiration to all. That is going to happen thanks a great deal to your tremendous energy. That energy must now be diverted, that is clear. But the fight will go on, fear not. Meanwhile your daughter will have the most remarkable mum in the world, and with such a champion fighting for her she has a lot going for her. Good luck on Monday. God bless you Chappie.
Chug
Chug
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It's not often I post here, but this thread is mainly where I do have a word to say.
Chappie, I'm sure everyone who has followed this thread is with you all the way. I speak for everyone when I say, we are 100% behind you and hope for the best outcome for you and the little one.
If you are really after ideas of a name for her.... how about 'Faith'? I know it's not the most fasionable of names but you know what I always say! (for those who don't know....Keep The Faith) You will know what I mean Chappie.
PS.
Chappie, I'm sure everyone who has followed this thread is with you all the way. I speak for everyone when I say, we are 100% behind you and hope for the best outcome for you and the little one.
If you are really after ideas of a name for her.... how about 'Faith'? I know it's not the most fasionable of names but you know what I always say! (for those who don't know....Keep The Faith) You will know what I mean Chappie.
PS.
Inquest condemns 'unforgivable' armour delays
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...uarmour118.xml
This brave finding by Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker in the Inquest into the death of Sgt Steve Roberts must surely have great relevance to the XV179 Inquest. Mr Walker is quoted as saying "To send soldiers into a combat zone without the appropriate basic equipment is, in my view, unforgivable and inexcusable and represents a breach of trust that the soldiers have in those in Government.
"This Enhanced Combat Body Armour was a basic piece of protective equipment. I have heard justification and excuse and I put these to one side as I remind myself that Sgt Roberts lost his life because he did not have that basic piece of equipment.
"Sgt Roberts's death was as a result of delay and serious failures in the acquisition and support chain that resulted in a significant shortage within his fighting unit of Enhanced Combat Body Armour, none being available for him......"
When the XV179 Inquest finally gets under way, we can surely hope for a similar finding, but with the words “Explosive Suppressant Foam”replacing “Enhanced Combat Body Armour”.
airsound
This brave finding by Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker in the Inquest into the death of Sgt Steve Roberts must surely have great relevance to the XV179 Inquest. Mr Walker is quoted as saying "To send soldiers into a combat zone without the appropriate basic equipment is, in my view, unforgivable and inexcusable and represents a breach of trust that the soldiers have in those in Government.
"This Enhanced Combat Body Armour was a basic piece of protective equipment. I have heard justification and excuse and I put these to one side as I remind myself that Sgt Roberts lost his life because he did not have that basic piece of equipment.
"Sgt Roberts's death was as a result of delay and serious failures in the acquisition and support chain that resulted in a significant shortage within his fighting unit of Enhanced Combat Body Armour, none being available for him......"
When the XV179 Inquest finally gets under way, we can surely hope for a similar finding, but with the words “Explosive Suppressant Foam”replacing “Enhanced Combat Body Armour”.
airsound
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And The Sun has published an 'exclusive' on XV206 from somewhere
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006580448,00.html
I don't know what has prompted this article, but there must be a reason.
...and its 90% bollocks
(and the XV206 thread has been locked)
I'm not looking for comments on this article, it is The Sun, after all. Just wondering what has prompted this exclusive.
By TOM NEWTON DUNN
December 18, 2006
THIRTY Brits and a VIP escaped when their RAF Hercules struck a landmine.
The device was planted on a runway in an Afghan desert airfield in Helmand.
The MoD originally blamed the disaster on a burst tyre, but The Sun can today reveal the real reason. The plane was later blown up to prevent parts being scavenged by Taliban fighters.
British envoy Stephen Evans, 56, escaped unhurt but two bodyguards were seriously wounded. Passengers dashed off the plane down its lowered tail gate.
The aircraft did not carry foam — now standard for C130s in war zones.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006580448,00.html
I don't know what has prompted this article, but there must be a reason.
...and its 90% bollocks
(and the XV206 thread has been locked)
I'm not looking for comments on this article, it is The Sun, after all. Just wondering what has prompted this exclusive.
By TOM NEWTON DUNN
December 18, 2006
THIRTY Brits and a VIP escaped when their RAF Hercules struck a landmine.
The device was planted on a runway in an Afghan desert airfield in Helmand.
The MoD originally blamed the disaster on a burst tyre, but The Sun can today reveal the real reason. The plane was later blown up to prevent parts being scavenged by Taliban fighters.
British envoy Stephen Evans, 56, escaped unhurt but two bodyguards were seriously wounded. Passengers dashed off the plane down its lowered tail gate.
The aircraft did not carry foam — now standard for C130s in war zones.
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I am as surprised about the Sun article as anyone else. MODs can we unlock the XV206 thread please? There are a series of photos linked in that thread. The BoI should be announced any day now, and within days of the crashof XV206 most informed people were suggesting the ac had hit a landmine. As for foam being standard, well, I think the officially agreed figure is 3 aircraft. Almost 2 years have gone by since the original crash of XV179. Ingram is saying that all ac will be completed by the end of next year so I can safely say the Sun are a long way off the mark. Still some conjecture until the BoI is announced and looking at the final photo it must have been a job to piece together the evidence. The big giveaway is the crater on the strip behind the ac. As for exclusive the pictures were carried on C4 News several weeks ago, but if it highlights the Hercules and frontline issues hey, I'll take a bit of publicity any day.
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To all of you who have worked so hard, for the right thing to be done, thanks.
Let us give thanks this Xmas, for all those who serve, have served, and especially to those who have given all, so that we can sit down with those who we love, and enjoy this Christmas.
In the madness that we see in this world, let us remember that truth not evilness will prevail in the long run.
In our home, we set an extra place, and sometimes it is filled by someone, who otherwise would have had to be alone.
All the best and have a safe one.
Regards
Col
Let us give thanks this Xmas, for all those who serve, have served, and especially to those who have given all, so that we can sit down with those who we love, and enjoy this Christmas.
In the madness that we see in this world, let us remember that truth not evilness will prevail in the long run.
In our home, we set an extra place, and sometimes it is filled by someone, who otherwise would have had to be alone.
All the best and have a safe one.
Regards
Col
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please remember that in february it is a pre inquest review that is being held. this is not the inquest that we are waiting for. i hope that will follow but there are no guarantees. the review is being held as the case appears to be of more significant complexity than first thought, whichcan only be a good thing...? can't it? surely that will mean it will go more in our favour, not that of the MoD? i know they will deny it as when i mentioned the incidences with hercs, such as 78 gatow and the falklands etc and that the MoD would have had paperwork etc i was told by the inert mr browne that there was no such paperwork or awareness in the ministry and he would be pleased to recieve them and discuss them. he must think that i'm a right muppet! i have my moments but he's got another thing coming. any advice as to my next move would be gratefully recieved.
i know my head has been else where recently but i have not left this campaign entirely. let us remember those who are not with their families this christmas/new year, nor will they be for a short time, or forever. it's the second christmas without bob and we go into a new year without him again, and i miss him more and more. enjoy your time with your family and friends and never forget who we are doing this for, friends who are still here and those who have sadly been lost. stay safe, take care and most importantly keep the faith !!!we will prevail. this is going to be an exciting year where we will acheive so much again. it is a priviledge to have met you all. happy new year love chappie and her troublesome bump!
i know my head has been else where recently but i have not left this campaign entirely. let us remember those who are not with their families this christmas/new year, nor will they be for a short time, or forever. it's the second christmas without bob and we go into a new year without him again, and i miss him more and more. enjoy your time with your family and friends and never forget who we are doing this for, friends who are still here and those who have sadly been lost. stay safe, take care and most importantly keep the faith !!!we will prevail. this is going to be an exciting year where we will acheive so much again. it is a priviledge to have met you all. happy new year love chappie and her troublesome bump!
Chappie, thank you for your inspiring post. How right to remind all of us in this campaign of the human cost of penny pinching with military equipment, and the pain and desolation that it leaves in its wake. That is why we shall prevail, even as Browne and Co twist and turn with their patronising lies. I wish I could find comfort in the legal complications of reviews into inquests, but I fear it is all part of the smoke and mirrors of their deceitful act. What they can't abide, what really throws them, is when a member of the public stands up and ridicules their posturing in public. Remember the WVS, the wife who berated Bliar outside a hospital, and of course yourself simply and sincerely pointing out the outrageous lack of care that they are guilty of. Their lawyers, their spin machine, their toadying backbenchers are all defenceless against such decency. What we urgently need is for Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to get off their fat backsides and do their constitutional duty. How about it Dave? But you are right Chappie, this will indeed be our year, which means it will be your year. So may I wish you, and yours (especially 'bump'!) a Happy New Year! We are all rooting for you Chappie, and sincerely hope that all goes well for you. Take really good care of yourself, best wishes
Chug
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PQs
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock:To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Hercules aircraft accepted from the contractor after being fitted with foam protection to their fuel tanks (a) were ready for active service and (b) required repairs due to fuel leaks. [117932]
Mr. Ingram:I am withholding the number of Explosion Suppression Foam (ESF) equipped Hercules C-130 aircraft that are available for operations, as this information could prejudice the security of our armed forces.
Fuel leaks were reported on two Hercules C-130 aircraft fitted with ESF. Both aircraft were returned to the contractor for repair and subsequently returned to the Front Line Command.
Further to Ingram's answer. I understand that 3 Hercules aircraft delivered from Marshall's have suffered from fuel leaks. Ingram stated earlier that all of the Hercules ac scheduled for foam will be fitted out by the end of the year. Well, the acceleration of the foam fitting program, promised to me in person does not appear to be happening. 5 x US helos shot down in 3 weeks in Iraq, I ask again, what the hell is happening to this program? Pre-inquest review will take place this month. This issue is not going away and if anything is becoming more urgent.
Mr. Hancock:To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Hercules aircraft accepted from the contractor after being fitted with foam protection to their fuel tanks (a) were ready for active service and (b) required repairs due to fuel leaks. [117932]
Mr. Ingram:I am withholding the number of Explosion Suppression Foam (ESF) equipped Hercules C-130 aircraft that are available for operations, as this information could prejudice the security of our armed forces.
Fuel leaks were reported on two Hercules C-130 aircraft fitted with ESF. Both aircraft were returned to the contractor for repair and subsequently returned to the Front Line Command.
Further to Ingram's answer. I understand that 3 Hercules aircraft delivered from Marshall's have suffered from fuel leaks. Ingram stated earlier that all of the Hercules ac scheduled for foam will be fitted out by the end of the year. Well, the acceleration of the foam fitting program, promised to me in person does not appear to be happening. 5 x US helos shot down in 3 weeks in Iraq, I ask again, what the hell is happening to this program? Pre-inquest review will take place this month. This issue is not going away and if anything is becoming more urgent.
Last edited by nigegilb; 8th Feb 2007 at 12:43.
As I feared! The words up and brewery come to mind. What affects the security of our Armed Forces, Mr Ingram, is the likes of you and the incompetent gang of wallys that work your wicked ways! So from less than one aircraft RTS per month, they will push them out at one a week? I don't think so. Enough of this nonsense. It would seem that UK plc is unable to fit a a straight forward mod and get it right. AFAIK there are others in the USA and Australia who can. Set the contracts up now! The days of "Good enough for Government work" must come to an end, especially when, as here, it is putting servicemen's lives at risk. Stop making excuses for those who can't cut it, they have to go. We are at war, and that includes Cambridge and Whitehall. If the forces were as pathetic as these people, the Taliban would be holding a victory parade at Horseguards by now!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 9th Feb 2007 at 12:02. Reason: misquoting WC!