Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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FF
I'm surprised that we didn't pay extra to have it removed!! Nothing would shock me with our current budgeteers masquerading as leaders!
Flip
Are we all doing enough to get more signatures on the petition?
http://www.petitiononline.com/XV179/petition.html
I'm surprised that we didn't pay extra to have it removed!! Nothing would shock me with our current budgeteers masquerading as leaders!
Flip
Are we all doing enough to get more signatures on the petition?
http://www.petitiononline.com/XV179/petition.html
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I have come across a small number of fellow aviators that believe that foam and inerting systems are of no interest to civilian operators.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
READ THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system
some info on this thread as well:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231356
Flip
Keep up the petitioning everyone
Flip
Nothing could be further from the truth.
READ THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inerting_system
some info on this thread as well:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231356
Flip
Keep up the petitioning everyone
Flip
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well well well we are nearly at 2400 so well done. i've seen that on this is wiltshire webpage there has been a link to the petition which is brilliant as i want the links to be made available to the lyneham community as they are the ones who feel the loss the most when a herc and it's crew sadly go down. they are the ones who pick up the pieces when their children are bereft and without fathers/uncles and the like. the government need to listen to us if they do not want to breed a generation of anger and hate towards them when their constiuents are children.
i'm waiting for everyone who i've written letters to to get back to me. it's been suggested i get an early day motion and in the list of MP's james grays name cropped up. i've thought about it though. he states he will help the families from XV179. well that's what i am. when i wrote to him you could see he has shown that he supports the call for foam and he enclosed a copy of his letters to des browne in his letter to me. plus, it would be a picture to see his face! i do love a challenge!
regards blair, here's something that will come back to bite him on the bum. on the front of my local paper was a strory about blair helping local children to see the world cup as he intervened. they were ripped off and actually the tickets for the match did not exist so they had to come home. blair decides to intervene, have a word in fifa's shell like and away they go back out to germany to see a match....all because blair intervened. now, i do not want to appear heartless at the expense of these children but it goes to show he can step in for worthwhile causes. well guess what i'll be asking him to do!
i'll keep you posted.
please keep posting from time to time.....and keep the faith! we're doing fine.
i'm waiting for everyone who i've written letters to to get back to me. it's been suggested i get an early day motion and in the list of MP's james grays name cropped up. i've thought about it though. he states he will help the families from XV179. well that's what i am. when i wrote to him you could see he has shown that he supports the call for foam and he enclosed a copy of his letters to des browne in his letter to me. plus, it would be a picture to see his face! i do love a challenge!
regards blair, here's something that will come back to bite him on the bum. on the front of my local paper was a strory about blair helping local children to see the world cup as he intervened. they were ripped off and actually the tickets for the match did not exist so they had to come home. blair decides to intervene, have a word in fifa's shell like and away they go back out to germany to see a match....all because blair intervened. now, i do not want to appear heartless at the expense of these children but it goes to show he can step in for worthwhile causes. well guess what i'll be asking him to do!
i'll keep you posted.
please keep posting from time to time.....and keep the faith! we're doing fine.
Last edited by chappie; 24th Jun 2006 at 17:41.
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Chappie,
All I can say is outstanding effort. You never fail to impress with the commitment you give to what you feel is right.
To everyone else who has mis-laid this thread....
I am no expert on the Hercules, but I do fly on them from time to time, and I ask these questions.....
Is the Hercules fleet, old and new, in perfect order to carry out the tasks required of them?
Are the operators totally happy carrying out these tasks?
And, can these massive deployments be manned in the air and on the ground without failure or delay?
I can't answer these questions, maybe you can.
PS.
All I can say is outstanding effort. You never fail to impress with the commitment you give to what you feel is right.
To everyone else who has mis-laid this thread....
I am no expert on the Hercules, but I do fly on them from time to time, and I ask these questions.....
Is the Hercules fleet, old and new, in perfect order to carry out the tasks required of them?
Are the operators totally happy carrying out these tasks?
And, can these massive deployments be manned in the air and on the ground without failure or delay?
I can't answer these questions, maybe you can.
PS.
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chappie, whilst not wanting to detract in anyway from your topic, i`m happy to offer my services and produce an animated banner or the like for websites in which you can use as a link, or anything else computer based if you like.
Keep up the good work
CM
Keep up the good work
CM
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Words of support
I've just spent some while reading through this thread. I recall the loss of our Hercules and how my heart sank when it became apparent that the cause was enemy action. Nige; I applaud your steadfast campaigning in this matter and also acknowledge the courage of chappie at such a sad time.
What makes me particularly angry is that politicians (supported by top brass) went to great lengths to assure us all that whilst trimming our armed forces was necessary, the benefit would be that those who remain would gain in terms of having tha best kit and specialised training.
At the time I was dubious and sadly I was right to be so. It was just more spin. Sending our transport aircraft into operational areas whilst insufficiently fitted for the task is one of many failings which our people have to endure. Lack of flak jackets, poor comms etc, the list goes on.
How many times do we have to hear of the death of soldiers on patrol as a result of a roadside bomb... Then see the TV footage of a burnt out plastic armoured LandRover!!! Those heaps of trash were 'armoured' to cope with 9mm pistols and the like in the streets of Belfast, not for a theatre where RPG's are around every damn corner.
We still seem to be under the old school influence which says that you can't sue the Crown. Such attitudes belong in the 19th Century.
Keep on exposing the lies. If you want an ordinary taxpayer to write to his (pro-armed forces) MP with any pertinent questions, just PM me.
What makes me particularly angry is that politicians (supported by top brass) went to great lengths to assure us all that whilst trimming our armed forces was necessary, the benefit would be that those who remain would gain in terms of having tha best kit and specialised training.
At the time I was dubious and sadly I was right to be so. It was just more spin. Sending our transport aircraft into operational areas whilst insufficiently fitted for the task is one of many failings which our people have to endure. Lack of flak jackets, poor comms etc, the list goes on.
How many times do we have to hear of the death of soldiers on patrol as a result of a roadside bomb... Then see the TV footage of a burnt out plastic armoured LandRover!!! Those heaps of trash were 'armoured' to cope with 9mm pistols and the like in the streets of Belfast, not for a theatre where RPG's are around every damn corner.
We still seem to be under the old school influence which says that you can't sue the Crown. Such attitudes belong in the 19th Century.
Keep on exposing the lies. If you want an ordinary taxpayer to write to his (pro-armed forces) MP with any pertinent questions, just PM me.
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all is well in the world of chappie. i'm releived to know that nige is safe and well. that fills me with utmost relief. thank you to all of those who have been very patient with me and my ramblings!
high cirrus prey tell sire what is an early day motion and what does it achieve? i'm intrigued and thinking of doing it. i'm also thinking of asking our old friend james gray. he is the one who has stated he has helped the families of those who lost their loved ones from XV179. he is the chap who distessingly called nigel a self publicist but he is supporting the call for foam. well, that is what he put in his letter to me and enclosed the letter that he sent to des browne pushing for answers about the foam. i would've asked my MP or the other chap who was helping but they have both fallen off the edge of the world it would appear! what do you chaps and chappesses think?
high cirrus prey tell sire what is an early day motion and what does it achieve? i'm intrigued and thinking of doing it. i'm also thinking of asking our old friend james gray. he is the one who has stated he has helped the families of those who lost their loved ones from XV179. he is the chap who distessingly called nigel a self publicist but he is supporting the call for foam. well, that is what he put in his letter to me and enclosed the letter that he sent to des browne pushing for answers about the foam. i would've asked my MP or the other chap who was helping but they have both fallen off the edge of the world it would appear! what do you chaps and chappesses think?
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chappie
From my posts on this thread, of 11/12 June 2006:
Probably best to try Michael Ancram, especially if James Gray may be a little unenthusiastic. From memory, Ancram is a shadow minister and he’s also a Privy Councillor. If he were to put down an EDM, it would certainly be taken note of and would draw other MP’s in for their share of any future brownie points which might become available. Another advantage of approaching Ancram is that he is new to this particular fray and may genuinely wish to help. He will also, of course, wish to embarrass the “government”.
Might be an idea to request nigegilb’s assistance in drafting the letter of request and his accompanying you to see Ancram, as he now has plenty of experience dealing with our esteemed representatives!
Keep up the excellent work.
PS. For an MP to call a member of the public a “self publicist” beggars belief and, coming from any member of that band of self-regarding, preening egotists, is perhaps the finest possible example of the “pot calling the kettle black”.
From my posts on this thread, of 11/12 June 2006:
Perhaps you should ask them to put forward an “Early Day Motion” – defined as follows:
An Early Day Motion, or EDM, is a motion put down ("tabled") by Members of Parliament calling for a debate on a particular subject. In practice, there is rarely time to debate EDMs nowadays and their true modern-day purpose is to enable MPs to draw attention to an issue and to canvass support for their views by inviting other Members to add their signatures in support of the motion. Members may table amendments to existing EDMs.
Below is a list of Wiltshire MPs, surrounding Lyneham, taken from the UK Parliament Website.
You will be able to contact them either by email here or by letter/telephone here. Do not be afraid to approach them – they are your representatives and your servants and they know that you can make life very difficult for them if they do not take you seriously – especially as your brother was a casualty.
I would imagine that the majority, being Conservative MPs, will be absolutely delighted to support your cause and wreak havoc with the present “government”. Better be quick though, before the summer recess.
Finally, I have in the past organised a lobby campaign with a cross party selection of MPs – all were absolutely delighted at the prospect of easy personal publicity and brownie points with their constituency voters! I'd guess that things have not changed too much in the intervening years.
Wiltshire (County including Swindon unitary authority)
Devizes Rt Hon Michael Ancram, Earl of QC (Con)
North Swindon Mr Michael Wills (Lab)
North Wiltshire Mr James Gray (Con)
Salisbury Robert Key (Con)
South Swindon Anne Snelgrove (Lab)
Westbury Dr Andrew Murrison (Con)
Keep at it and continued good luck.
You will be able to contact them either by email here or by letter/telephone here. Do not be afraid to approach them – they are your representatives and your servants and they know that you can make life very difficult for them if they do not take you seriously – especially as your brother was a casualty.
I would imagine that the majority, being Conservative MPs, will be absolutely delighted to support your cause and wreak havoc with the present “government”. Better be quick though, before the summer recess.
Finally, I have in the past organised a lobby campaign with a cross party selection of MPs – all were absolutely delighted at the prospect of easy personal publicity and brownie points with their constituency voters! I'd guess that things have not changed too much in the intervening years.
Wiltshire (County including Swindon unitary authority)
Devizes Rt Hon Michael Ancram, Earl of QC (Con)
North Swindon Mr Michael Wills (Lab)
North Wiltshire Mr James Gray (Con)
Salisbury Robert Key (Con)
South Swindon Anne Snelgrove (Lab)
Westbury Dr Andrew Murrison (Con)
Keep at it and continued good luck.
Might be an idea to request nigegilb’s assistance in drafting the letter of request and his accompanying you to see Ancram, as he now has plenty of experience dealing with our esteemed representatives!
Keep up the excellent work.
PS. For an MP to call a member of the public a “self publicist” beggars belief and, coming from any member of that band of self-regarding, preening egotists, is perhaps the finest possible example of the “pot calling the kettle black”.
Last edited by highcirrus; 26th Jun 2006 at 01:46.
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chappie
Further information on Michael Ancram here. As a Tory Defence Spokesman in 2005, with a majority of 13,194 and currently on the Conservative Defence/Foreign Affairs Policy Committee, I'd have thought he was a natural for an EDM on the subject of Hercules DAS/ESF. Contact him here. Website here.
Further information on Michael Ancram here. As a Tory Defence Spokesman in 2005, with a majority of 13,194 and currently on the Conservative Defence/Foreign Affairs Policy Committee, I'd have thought he was a natural for an EDM on the subject of Hercules DAS/ESF. Contact him here. Website here.
OLD RED DAMASK
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As said before am ex squaddie but have RAF interests at heart as my Uncle is an ex pilot.This excerpt from yesterdays commons defence questions just sums up the attitude of this goverment.Full of empty promises and not wanting to resolve anything in the short term as they put it.So more lives lost needlessly.
Chappie All the best and keep up the good work.
Nige YYou have done lots and I presume you are extremely busy behind the scenes..well done.
As said sorry for cut and paste but this just sums up the whole Armed forces situation.
Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. The Snatch Land Rover was a popular option earlier in the campaign in Afghanistan, because it was mobile and a good all-rounder, and had the right profile to help our troops to engage with the people of Basra in Multi-National Division (South-East). I think Members will appreciate that a vision of our troops thundering down narrow streets with battle tanks was not exactly what we wanted to convey to the people of Basra and other parts of south-east Iraq.
Things are changing. As I have said, the level of violence in Basra has increased. I will not go into detail for obvious reasons, but the weapons that the terrorists are using have changed radically, as I have seen for myself on visits. I have seen that that is a serious issue, and have asked for a review. There are medium and long-term plans relating to vehicles, and I shall be considering what we can do to respond to the situation in the short term—although we do also respond by means of tactics and operational instructions.
So appearances to the locals are more important than soldiers lifes...What total BS.
Chappie All the best and keep up the good work.
Nige YYou have done lots and I presume you are extremely busy behind the scenes..well done.
As said sorry for cut and paste but this just sums up the whole Armed forces situation.
Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. The Snatch Land Rover was a popular option earlier in the campaign in Afghanistan, because it was mobile and a good all-rounder, and had the right profile to help our troops to engage with the people of Basra in Multi-National Division (South-East). I think Members will appreciate that a vision of our troops thundering down narrow streets with battle tanks was not exactly what we wanted to convey to the people of Basra and other parts of south-east Iraq.
Things are changing. As I have said, the level of violence in Basra has increased. I will not go into detail for obvious reasons, but the weapons that the terrorists are using have changed radically, as I have seen for myself on visits. I have seen that that is a serious issue, and have asked for a review. There are medium and long-term plans relating to vehicles, and I shall be considering what we can do to respond to the situation in the short term—although we do also respond by means of tactics and operational instructions.
So appearances to the locals are more important than soldiers lifes...What total BS.
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keeping up appearances
unfortunately laser it is all about that. i have also had the misfortune about of hearing that the poor sods that are out on patrol are in the lightweight version of the land rovers as amoured vehicles offend the locals.
memo to des browne....i'm afraid sir that there is disgruntlement amongst the public of great britain as the killing of soliders due to incorrect or lack of equipment is also rather upsetting to say the least!!!GET IT SORTED!!! i am aware though that the general feeling is this....
!
what does it take to get the man to listen, instead of hiding his head in the sand hoping that i'll go away. des, i'll still be here when you are ready....i'm going nowhere. i WILL get the legacy in place for those men who died. you can continue to hide behind your answers about the breaching of security that you've got off pat, but ultimately you know we are not breaching security or compromising those already out there. it's a wide known fact that the plane was brought down so no amount of talking about it after the event is going to hide the fact!
i had it pointed out to me that 25 men have died as a result of having the misfortune of being in a snatch land rover, couple that with the 10 that died on the hercules and the poor sos that was on foot patrol when the IED went off that gives you a total of 36 men...roughly 36% ish of those who died in iraq because the government failed to provide the proper equipment for it's soliders. i saw a news article a while back with a canadian (i think) soliders in their amoured vehicles. an explosion went off, the cars were shunted into one another and the loud bang that was caught on camera was actually a suicide bomber driving into the patrol. the soliders were saved and the explosion was deflected killing people in the market. yet again, i ask this simplistic question. why can't we provide our soliders with the same and lead by example instead of following? i know what i'd prefer.
memo to des browne....i'm afraid sir that there is disgruntlement amongst the public of great britain as the killing of soliders due to incorrect or lack of equipment is also rather upsetting to say the least!!!GET IT SORTED!!! i am aware though that the general feeling is this....
! what does it take to get the man to listen, instead of hiding his head in the sand hoping that i'll go away. des, i'll still be here when you are ready....i'm going nowhere. i WILL get the legacy in place for those men who died. you can continue to hide behind your answers about the breaching of security that you've got off pat, but ultimately you know we are not breaching security or compromising those already out there. it's a wide known fact that the plane was brought down so no amount of talking about it after the event is going to hide the fact!
i had it pointed out to me that 25 men have died as a result of having the misfortune of being in a snatch land rover, couple that with the 10 that died on the hercules and the poor sos that was on foot patrol when the IED went off that gives you a total of 36 men...roughly 36% ish of those who died in iraq because the government failed to provide the proper equipment for it's soliders. i saw a news article a while back with a canadian (i think) soliders in their amoured vehicles. an explosion went off, the cars were shunted into one another and the loud bang that was caught on camera was actually a suicide bomber driving into the patrol. the soliders were saved and the explosion was deflected killing people in the market. yet again, i ask this simplistic question. why can't we provide our soliders with the same and lead by example instead of following? i know what i'd prefer.
Hellbound
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I genuinely do not know what type of LR the troops that died last night were driving, or if having an armoured vehicle would DEFINITELY have improved their chances of surviving the RPG attack and follow-up, but I know what I would prefer to be in at the moment.
My thoughts are with the families and the boys on the ground that will go out on patrol regardless...
My thoughts are with the families and the boys on the ground that will go out on patrol regardless...
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here here. having contact with the mothers of those men who have already lost thier sons because of this i've seen first hand at the suffering it brings, alongside the the pain i have in losing my brother when he could have survived. in fact most of our soliders i'm sure would have survived had they been properly supplied. our friendships are starting to blossom and we're coming together as military families do and we're fighting hard to stop this from happening to other families. what makes it worse is the apparent waste of money that blair takes part in....for christs sake the man has ordered two bloody jets to ferry him and his family around in . as a taxpayer i'd prefer my money went on saving the lives of our soliders...not him!
OLD RED DAMASK
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Sorry to cut and paste again but a relevant question to this thread was put up by James Gray yesterday and the answer from Des Browne.....
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I know that the Secretary of State will agree that central to a successful deployment in Afghanistan will be the heavy-lift capability provided by the Hercules aircraft from RAF Lyneham, which is in my constituency. In that context, he will know that one of the contributory factors to the tragic crash of a Hercules in Iraq last year might have been the absence of foam flame retardant in the wing tanks. Will he tell us how quickly the retardant will be fitted in the Hercules fleet and
26 Jun 2006 : Column 12
how many planes will be fitted with it? Will he confirm that all the planes that are deployed in Afghanistan will have that safeguard fitted to them?
Des Browne: I am happy to accept the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to pay tribute to the contribution that the Hercules—and, more importantly, those who fly the Hercules—have made to military operations in not only Afghanistan and Iraq at present, but elsewhere. He knows, as I am sure that the House does, that we intend to fit the flame-retardant foam into Hercules and to ensure that those that are deployed to the theatre are fitted with that. I have said in public, so I have no reason to say anything different from the Dispatch Box, that we hope to be able to do that by August for the first of them. We will ensure that sufficient numbers of Hercules are fitted with the appropriate retardant foam so that operations can be conducted.
So now it's August for the first one at the moment,how long to get the fleet done I wonder????
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I know that the Secretary of State will agree that central to a successful deployment in Afghanistan will be the heavy-lift capability provided by the Hercules aircraft from RAF Lyneham, which is in my constituency. In that context, he will know that one of the contributory factors to the tragic crash of a Hercules in Iraq last year might have been the absence of foam flame retardant in the wing tanks. Will he tell us how quickly the retardant will be fitted in the Hercules fleet and
26 Jun 2006 : Column 12
how many planes will be fitted with it? Will he confirm that all the planes that are deployed in Afghanistan will have that safeguard fitted to them?
Des Browne: I am happy to accept the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to pay tribute to the contribution that the Hercules—and, more importantly, those who fly the Hercules—have made to military operations in not only Afghanistan and Iraq at present, but elsewhere. He knows, as I am sure that the House does, that we intend to fit the flame-retardant foam into Hercules and to ensure that those that are deployed to the theatre are fitted with that. I have said in public, so I have no reason to say anything different from the Dispatch Box, that we hope to be able to do that by August for the first of them. We will ensure that sufficient numbers of Hercules are fitted with the appropriate retardant foam so that operations can be conducted.
So now it's August for the first one at the moment,how long to get the fleet done I wonder????
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i heard today that it takes eighteen months to fit the planes with the foam. if that is the case then it won't be august that the plane will be ready. on the other hand it won't take eighteen months if the plane is to be ready in august. shame that des browne couldn't extend his acknowledgments to the crew that lost their lives in the crash...or would it be a case that if he did that he'd be underlining the fact that because of the lack of foam they're dead! thankyou for that info lasernigel.
i've also seen des being interviewed on the steps of MoD saying that money has been spent over the last three years on protection for our troops! what he failed to do though was follow up with examples about where the money was spent. there was no protection for those troops that have perished at the hands of our government and their inability to protect their best asset....our british armed forces.
what i'd also say is this. why are the government so worried about not offending the people of iraq? why doesn't the british public matter? have the government not realised about the offence in hearing that statement causes the families left behind? it really deepens the sense of hurt and loss that we endure every day. why do we not count/ why are we treated like a dirty sleazy secret that they are ashamed of? especially when we have done nothing wrong. why treat our troops, peoples loved ones as nothing more than collateral damage in a game of hearts and minds. i think that they should concentrate in winning the hearts and minds of the british nation first.
i've also seen des being interviewed on the steps of MoD saying that money has been spent over the last three years on protection for our troops! what he failed to do though was follow up with examples about where the money was spent. there was no protection for those troops that have perished at the hands of our government and their inability to protect their best asset....our british armed forces.
what i'd also say is this. why are the government so worried about not offending the people of iraq? why doesn't the british public matter? have the government not realised about the offence in hearing that statement causes the families left behind? it really deepens the sense of hurt and loss that we endure every day. why do we not count/ why are we treated like a dirty sleazy secret that they are ashamed of? especially when we have done nothing wrong. why treat our troops, peoples loved ones as nothing more than collateral damage in a game of hearts and minds. i think that they should concentrate in winning the hearts and minds of the british nation first.
Last edited by chappie; 27th Jun 2006 at 21:55.
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keeping focussed
dear fellow ppruners, my following reply will seem a little odd but please bear with me as it's something that i have to do. it would appear that the thread has been watched from afar for personal reasons trying to identify a misuse of bob. this both saddens and hurts me deeply, but here is what i'd say to you.
morning col! i found out today that you have been watching the thread trying to catch me out. i have stated before when there were attempts to make it personal for me to be PM'd so any concerns can be discussed. this thread is about a campaign to save lives nothing more nothing less. please feel free to add your thoughts regards the campaign to get fuel suppresant technology fitted.if you feel you have personal issue with what i'm doing i will stress again for you to send me a private message so this page does not spiral into anything more than a personal attack on me and detract from the outstanding work being done by others and myself to achieve safety for all.
morning col! i found out today that you have been watching the thread trying to catch me out. i have stated before when there were attempts to make it personal for me to be PM'd so any concerns can be discussed. this thread is about a campaign to save lives nothing more nothing less. please feel free to add your thoughts regards the campaign to get fuel suppresant technology fitted.if you feel you have personal issue with what i'm doing i will stress again for you to send me a private message so this page does not spiral into anything more than a personal attack on me and detract from the outstanding work being done by others and myself to achieve safety for all.
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Chappie
absolutely - this thread is not about Bob, or Steady or any of the others that died. While it was inspired by the tragedy that involved them, it is actually about the boys and girls that remain behind still flying the same aircraft.
absolutely - this thread is not about Bob, or Steady or any of the others that died. While it was inspired by the tragedy that involved them, it is actually about the boys and girls that remain behind still flying the same aircraft.
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Well said that man!
Chappie
You are an inspiration but there will always be 'knockers' (ie people who wish to snipe at you!)
Ignore them and their pettiness. Those that are still flying Albert are our prime concern but of course, the emotional 'drive' comes your loss.
By the way, although there are other threats out there and defences required for them, I haven't yet found a single person who would refuse having foam fitted to their ac!
Keep it up dear girl.
Chappie
You are an inspiration but there will always be 'knockers' (ie people who wish to snipe at you!)
Ignore them and their pettiness. Those that are still flying Albert are our prime concern but of course, the emotional 'drive' comes your loss.
By the way, although there are other threats out there and defences required for them, I haven't yet found a single person who would refuse having foam fitted to their ac!
Keep it up dear girl.
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thankyou guys. i really appreciate the support. i was loathe to have to do that but i really felt that it was needed. just to say, please do not feel as though you have been abandoned. there is alot going on in the background. letters have been sent to blair, david cameron and des browne.not sure if to pursue the early day motion as all the MP's are on their jollies. tomorrow, i'm doing more media tomorrow about the campaign and attending a large conference where more signatures will be got! keep the faith!
Last edited by chappie; 2nd Jul 2006 at 20:45.