Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
Chappie
Sorry it didn’t work this time. But the thing you have to remember about progs like Today is that getting something on is a matter of huge chance. The fact that we got you and Nige on first of all was perhaps not unexpected, because it is clearly ‘a good story’ in Today terms. But getting Jim Naughtie to ask Reid the question on 3 May was really a matter of luck - it is, after all, a live show - so it’s not all that surprising that we didn’t succeed this morning.
In fact, I think they’d backed themselves into a corner. The problem was that they had already had the Culture Minister on at 0740, and then they had a pre-prepared package from Afghan to run before they got to Browne, so they ended up with very little time before the weather forecast. A shame, but the point is we have to keep on at them, and be prepared for it not to work sometimes.
I did have a nice email from the Today Editor Ceri Thomas on 8 May saying they wanted to keep the pressure up on this - so maybe I’ll remind him subtly again!
I do agree all of the comments about Browne’s total lack of charisma....
Incidentally, Nige will know that I had planned to mention The Petition at the Cosford Air Show when the J had finished its display (as I did at Southend), but I’m afraid the RAF specifically asked me not to - and it is an RAF show on an RAF station. Never mind, there will be other shows.
Btw, Nige - thanks for kind words on Cosford Air Show thread.
Glad you enjoyed it!
nihil carborundum
airsound
Sorry it didn’t work this time. But the thing you have to remember about progs like Today is that getting something on is a matter of huge chance. The fact that we got you and Nige on first of all was perhaps not unexpected, because it is clearly ‘a good story’ in Today terms. But getting Jim Naughtie to ask Reid the question on 3 May was really a matter of luck - it is, after all, a live show - so it’s not all that surprising that we didn’t succeed this morning.
In fact, I think they’d backed themselves into a corner. The problem was that they had already had the Culture Minister on at 0740, and then they had a pre-prepared package from Afghan to run before they got to Browne, so they ended up with very little time before the weather forecast. A shame, but the point is we have to keep on at them, and be prepared for it not to work sometimes.
I did have a nice email from the Today Editor Ceri Thomas on 8 May saying they wanted to keep the pressure up on this - so maybe I’ll remind him subtly again!
I do agree all of the comments about Browne’s total lack of charisma....
Incidentally, Nige will know that I had planned to mention The Petition at the Cosford Air Show when the J had finished its display (as I did at Southend), but I’m afraid the RAF specifically asked me not to - and it is an RAF show on an RAF station. Never mind, there will be other shows.
Btw, Nige - thanks for kind words on Cosford Air Show thread.
Glad you enjoyed it!nihil carborundum
airsound
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airsound, thanks for that. i've been thinking about contacting angus again at radio 4 to talk a follow up concentrating on the petition. what do you think? maybe, the same for channel 4 also.
re:airshows. what about duxford. it's in the local area and the positive effect that it's having for marshalls helps to tie in the petition and keeping it local for me to get the people of cambridge to continue to sign the petittion. what about getting duxford to have copies of it, iither as a link from their web page , at the airshows or at the admission desk at the exhibitions. i could run it there it'd take me 20 mins at the most. any other ideas where i could leave the paper petition, grarefully received. i've about 50 paper signatures and i'm hoping that a friend who works in high profile palce in london is successful in getting famous people to sign.
re:airshows. what about duxford. it's in the local area and the positive effect that it's having for marshalls helps to tie in the petition and keeping it local for me to get the people of cambridge to continue to sign the petittion. what about getting duxford to have copies of it, iither as a link from their web page , at the airshows or at the admission desk at the exhibitions. i could run it there it'd take me 20 mins at the most. any other ideas where i could leave the paper petition, grarefully received. i've about 50 paper signatures and i'm hoping that a friend who works in high profile palce in london is successful in getting famous people to sign.
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Chappie, I think your comments about DB, if maybe a little harsh, are around the mark. I wouldn't go so far to say that......yet, but I know where you're coming from. I don't know him personally, but we are all aware of his past areas of employment in this worrying government.
I always like to give people a reasonable amount of time to 'bed into' a new job. Unfortunately, this man does not give me much hope for the future of an undermanned, overstretched and underfunded department by which human lives can be lost or saved with a simple signature or decision (or lack of it).
Hence my first ever thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230072
Keep the ball rolling guys, you're efforts are slowly being recognized at a higher level.
Permanent Sand.
I always like to give people a reasonable amount of time to 'bed into' a new job. Unfortunately, this man does not give me much hope for the future of an undermanned, overstretched and underfunded department by which human lives can be lost or saved with a simple signature or decision (or lack of it).
Hence my first ever thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=230072
Keep the ball rolling guys, you're efforts are slowly being recognized at a higher level.
Permanent Sand.
Last edited by Permanent Sand; 13th Jun 2006 at 17:02.
chappie
By all means talk to Angus and/or Channel 4 News - can't possibly do any harm! As far as Duxford is concerned, my experience of them (we're doing their commentaries this year, though not Flying Legends) is that, because they are part of Imperial War Museum, they are very careful about not offending the guvmint. Their definition of 'offending' seems pretty widely drawn!
However I will PM you with a contact - once again, no harm trying.
Good luck.....
airsound
By all means talk to Angus and/or Channel 4 News - can't possibly do any harm! As far as Duxford is concerned, my experience of them (we're doing their commentaries this year, though not Flying Legends) is that, because they are part of Imperial War Museum, they are very careful about not offending the guvmint. Their definition of 'offending' seems pretty widely drawn!
However I will PM you with a contact - once again, no harm trying.
Good luck.....
airsound
'Inadequately testiculated' sums up Des 'strangely' Brownie....
That the RAF asked anyone to hush up the petition is utterly outrageous. Had it been me on the end of the mike, I would have said "Incidentally, RAF PR has asked me not to mention the public petition aiming to ensure that the C130 is fleet is adequately protected in war operations, so I guess I'd better not" or words to that effect....
The little men with lots of stars seem to be running very scared of you, chappie!
That the RAF asked anyone to hush up the petition is utterly outrageous. Had it been me on the end of the mike, I would have said "Incidentally, RAF PR has asked me not to mention the public petition aiming to ensure that the C130 is fleet is adequately protected in war operations, so I guess I'd better not" or words to that effect....
The little men with lots of stars seem to be running very scared of you, chappie!
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Although I agree totally with the comments made about our short term leaders, my concerns with our 'blue' leaders are growing daily.Their decisions to request and then back a purchase of 144 fighters will always be the get out clause for any government.We as the airforce only recieve a finite amount of cash to pursue our goals and as always the fast jet centred leaders have chosen to spend the vast majority on a useless waste of space.
The main problem is, and always will be the airforce top brass...thats the area we should embaress at every opportunity.
5d2d
The main problem is, and always will be the airforce top brass...thats the area we should embaress at every opportunity.
5d2d
Originally Posted by BEagle
That the RAF asked anyone to hush up the petition is utterly outrageous. Had it been me on the end of the mike, I would have said "Incidentally, RAF PR has asked me not to mention the public petition aiming to ensure that the C130 is fleet is adequately protected in war operations, so I guess I'd better not" or words to that effect....
In any case, whilst every little helps, I’m not sure how many people watching an air show as they stand in the sunshine will be bothered to write down a web address.
I’m sure you know, as an old warrior, that much of the success in a war comes from choosing the right battlefield whenever you can. Some are just not suitable - and you fight on them at your peril.
So, this way, I live to publicise the petition another day, as I have previously. And none of the air shows that we’re doing for the rest of the year is an RAF show, so there should be more opportunities.
All the best
airsound
Sounds like a reasonable judgement call.
WWW
WWW
You're entitled to your opinions, of course.
But why do you think that someone actually had to ask you not to mention it? Are they that worried about freedom of expression?
But why do you think that someone actually had to ask you not to mention it? Are they that worried about freedom of expression?
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I think Beags has a very good point - why are 'they' so worried? Certainly, it is very worrying that 'gagging' has become a secondary duty. Are there any other people out there who have been gagged 'off the record'?
However, Airsound, in my opinion, did the right thing at the time - it was probably best not to stir that particular hornets' nest - well not yet, anyway!
However, Airsound, in my opinion, did the right thing at the time - it was probably best not to stir that particular hornets' nest - well not yet, anyway!
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i have to say that i did go a little OTT myself with my comments on des browne. it's just that his inertia makes me so mad, when i'm pushing myself on a daily basis to fight for what i believe. i'm so lucky and blessed to have the help and support from all of you and you continue to inspire me on a daily basis. i know that the best way to get what you want is not to insult but i struggle to both accept and understand his unwillingness to do something about this mess.
there is of course both sides of the arguement i agree with re: RAF requesting that the petition doesn't get mentioned. you have a job to do airsound and i for one would never wish to jepordise that, but on the other i see regualry that RAF have requested that the foam issue/petition doesn't get mentioned. why should i let them have what they want? why, should i cover up the fact that through the unwillingness of someone being prepared to take responsibility and spend the money there are ten fine men who are not here right now. why should i keep quiet at the risk of highlighting and/or emabarassing the officials. i've always been taught to take responsibility for your actions. if you are going to do something then before you do it be sure you are prepared for the consequences of those actions and that you can take them on and deal with them. they made their choice so here's the consequences of those actions. i'm reminded every day about the consequences when i realise all i ahve left of my brother is a photo, so they should be made to call over this to. please airsound, do not think that it's a case of just an online petition. you can all get it on a paper version. people can come sign it at certain desks where the petitions are laid out. i've always got a petition in my handbag. not that i'm suggesting that you get a handbag! it is in your hands for you to make your decisions. you are not under any pressure. just the RAF etc.
there is of course both sides of the arguement i agree with re: RAF requesting that the petition doesn't get mentioned. you have a job to do airsound and i for one would never wish to jepordise that, but on the other i see regualry that RAF have requested that the foam issue/petition doesn't get mentioned. why should i let them have what they want? why, should i cover up the fact that through the unwillingness of someone being prepared to take responsibility and spend the money there are ten fine men who are not here right now. why should i keep quiet at the risk of highlighting and/or emabarassing the officials. i've always been taught to take responsibility for your actions. if you are going to do something then before you do it be sure you are prepared for the consequences of those actions and that you can take them on and deal with them. they made their choice so here's the consequences of those actions. i'm reminded every day about the consequences when i realise all i ahve left of my brother is a photo, so they should be made to call over this to. please airsound, do not think that it's a case of just an online petition. you can all get it on a paper version. people can come sign it at certain desks where the petitions are laid out. i've always got a petition in my handbag. not that i'm suggesting that you get a handbag! it is in your hands for you to make your decisions. you are not under any pressure. just the RAF etc.
Airsound....
Editted to agree with South Bound upon reflection that RIAT is perhaps not the time and place - if it was full of politicians though I don't think anyone should have any worries about making them squirm a bit - it's what the majority of them do for a living 
Fantastic job on the XV179 "missing man" flypast last year by the way. I'm a humble southside spectator these days, but it had quite an impact where I was stood.
Fantastic job on the XV179 "missing man" flypast last year by the way. I'm a humble southside spectator these days, but it had quite an impact where I was stood.
Last edited by Wycombe; 14th Jun 2006 at 23:08.
WWW, Flipster - thanks for support! (I'll wear it always, as we used to say)
But I honestly don’t think it’s surprising that ‘they’ appear worried - in their situation I would be too! You might take it as an indication that the petition is already doing its work.
After all, this petition is highly critical of the MoD - and, by implication, of the RAF itself. You guys all know how they work - there’s nothing new in their attitude. What would have been really surprising would have have been if they had said, Go ahead, do it.
But we are getting there - at least in part because we’re attacking on a variety of fronts. Let’s keep doing that, and let’s keep making use of the great variety of talent that PPRuNe allows us to access in a way that just didn’t exist before.
airsound
But I honestly don’t think it’s surprising that ‘they’ appear worried - in their situation I would be too! You might take it as an indication that the petition is already doing its work.
After all, this petition is highly critical of the MoD - and, by implication, of the RAF itself. You guys all know how they work - there’s nothing new in their attitude. What would have been really surprising would have have been if they had said, Go ahead, do it.
But we are getting there - at least in part because we’re attacking on a variety of fronts. Let’s keep doing that, and let’s keep making use of the great variety of talent that PPRuNe allows us to access in a way that just didn’t exist before.
airsound
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Chappie makes a valid point about Top Brass having to face the responsibility of their decisions. I would describe it as reckless, armed with the knowledge we have now, to send Herc crews to Afg without foam. Safety provided by foam was never a factor in the planning process for this deployment. I am awaiting with interest the BoI result for XV206.
Could be the "Top Brass" rue the day they did not prioritise the fitting of foam.
NG edited iaw sb /as cheers!
Could be the "Top Brass" rue the day they did not prioritise the fitting of foam.
NG edited iaw sb /as cheers!
Last edited by nigegilb; 14th Jun 2006 at 13:30.
Hellbound
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Nige, Chappie, et al
Support the cause without question; however, I just don't see RIAT as the place for making the point. While embarrassing people into action is effective in certain situations, the only people one might embarrass at an airshow are the organisers and that could lead to reduced participation/trust in future events. Joe Public wants to see the air display, not get involved in a political fight over military spending priorities.
Perhaps a prompted moment of reflection as the C130 displays might be more appropriate, IMHO.
Support the cause without question; however, I just don't see RIAT as the place for making the point. While embarrassing people into action is effective in certain situations, the only people one might embarrass at an airshow are the organisers and that could lead to reduced participation/trust in future events. Joe Public wants to see the air display, not get involved in a political fight over military spending priorities.
Perhaps a prompted moment of reflection as the C130 displays might be more appropriate, IMHO.
Folks - thanks for all the advice! I'm sorry that this was all prompted by my explanation of what happened at Cosford. But I do think nuff sed about RIAT. OK?
airsound
airsound
Now that does take me back, Beags. I find I have to explain it sometimes nowadays - not many people remember deutschlish.
There was also 'qu' est ce que c'est vôtre valise, mon père' ('what's your case, dad' for non-franglais speakers)
sorry - thread creep rears its ugly head again.....
son de l'air
There was also 'qu' est ce que c'est vôtre valise, mon père' ('what's your case, dad' for non-franglais speakers)
sorry - thread creep rears its ugly head again.....
son de l'air
Last edited by airsound; 14th Jun 2006 at 18:41.