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Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

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Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

Old 14th Apr 2006, 22:31
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Sub, 47 Sqn has been the most highly decorated RAF Sqn for the last 10 years. I do not know how much you know about the C130 world but rest assured, Lyneham is not short of risk takers - I am just trying to improve their odds. There is a lot of defence money out there and a lot of it is being spent on Typhoon. For the last 10 years Hercs, Helos etc have been on the front line all over the World in poorly equipped aircraft. The last time an RAF fighter pilot shot someone down was an awful long time ago. The money is there, but it is not being spent where we need it right now.

Do you want to tell a widow that the best the RAF could offer her husband was luck?

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Old 14th Apr 2006, 22:53
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who are you john reid or what???

lucky shots, luck with flying....to be frank it's a bloody joke. maybe they were aware of the risks. that said, it does'nt mean that they have to accept them. that doesn't mean that they have to leave if they don't. it just highlights the true professionals that they were.

if the foam gets given that means that" someone will go without something they need." that headache can belong to the higher powers who get paid the real money. let them take the risks, not our soliders. it's time the ministers earnt their wage. like you say...it ain't a perfect world! that line of thought will not stop the campaign for protection for all troops. the fact that the insertion of foam will help protect all crew/ troops and passengers on these planes highlights the fact that it's important enough and essential. if the planes are in theatre or on a cargo run elsewhere, with the amount of lives on board at any one time there is a need. look how we found out. what else needs to happen to underline the fact? is the loss of ten colleagues not enough? is the taxpayer paying £130,000 for the blairs to go on four trips on the queens flight on family jollies a wiser spend of our money than looking after our troops? i can tell you what the majority think. we live in the 21st century. not the third world. while we are entitled to our views, and it's good to hear, them we cannot make comparisons with the end of the cold or second world war. different centuries, generations, different times. you don't have to accept second best.

it's time the cobwebs are brushed off from our ministers, they earn their money. get with the programme. take part in the duty of care culture that they installed and the government have a shake up. remember ten men were lost. yes, they were doing the job they loved and accepted......but then they were stopped from doing their job. there had been warnings that this would happen. it can't be ignored any more..........and most importantly their lives are not to be written off. this must be learnt from.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 07:23
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And what if a rocket propelled grenade is fired into a cockpit of one of the aircraft in Iraq or Afghanistan- what do you suggest we fit then - 10 inch armour over all of the cockpit windows - it isn't a perfect world as I have said and yes there can be lucky shots.

There is not enough money and this will never change as the military is not as sexy to voters as the NHS or education.

Nige/Chappie -perhaps you should give more time to considering why exactly the crew were at low-level and stop blaming the lack of foam as the key contributor to the accident.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 08:34
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Sub, I'm not entirely sure what your problem is but I suspect you're a bit of a retired, it-was-good-enough-in-my-day, run-stark-naked-at-jerry type of fool.

No, you can't protect against an RPG round through the cockpit, you're right. So by that thinking we shouldn't bother doing anything I guess? What a facile argument. You protect yourself against those threats you can but accept that there are those that can't be defeated. By your logic, we shouldn't give troops flak jackets because they won't protect against a big VBIED so why bother. Genius

There is enough money to do these simple fixes but sadly the RAF is wrapped up in gibberish like Typhoon and various disastrous admin IT systems. As stated before, this is a cheap system. £50k to inert one of the RAF's largest, slowest flying, explosive targets versus the loss of a multi-million pound airframe, several aircrew, a few vehicles, a load of pax and god knows what else. It's not rocket science. The money is there - just witness how much is being allocated to move a few offices round at Lyneham to create a "Force HQ".

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Old 15th Apr 2006, 08:43
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Sub,
Inadvertently you have touched on another weakness in the Hercules. The RPG attack has already been done, talk to any Harrier mate. Force protection is going to be a real issue in the next few weeks, I tried raising it with HCDC but got nowhere with the politicians. The RAF could start by fitting lightweight easy to use kevlar matting to protect its passengers, just like the Australians have done. Guess what they do not want to spend the money. It appears that our guys are simply more expendable and it does not help much if you spout forth with your bile.

For the record, no criticism was made of the crew for flying low level, but the board recommended looking into fitting of foam. Would you like me to try and overturn the conclusion of a BoI? I find your logic difficult to follow.

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Old 15th Apr 2006, 10:01
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sub, what if, what if, what if!!!!! no way to conduct an argument really is it? no way to put forward your frankly outdated ideas my friend. certainly not in a convincing manner. methinks that you are scrabbling around for anything that will try and make the cold, hard facts look like we've gone all touchy feely lovely..........that is most definitely wrong. i could not be more cold or hard, even if i tried.

i tell you what sub, seeing as you clearly have a problem with the foam being fitted we'll make sure that all alberts you get to fly on can offer you no more protection than that of a glorified tin can! these are fantastic planes and are vunerable to attack. the implications of which are too expensive to cast aside. the loss of a frame, the loss of equipment on board, the loss of manpower due to the varied no. of troops that might be on board. if other parts of the forces are suffering due to the lack of/ poor state of equipment then fight for it to be changed! don't attack that some people have the where with all to change their own situation. how many more lives need to be finished off? how many more crew are expendable in your eyes?

as for the low level flying...the clue is in the title of their flight. you know full well that they were SF. flying in low is done for all types of reasons and has been seen to be necessary. at least that is what i've been told whilst around all the official bods! they don't deserve to die because they were in low.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 13:16
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Dr Reid must be so proud to see that some of his new drones are taking up his cause to save as much money as poss by accepting what ever rubbish is passed down the chain of command.
If this really is the mind set of some of the RAF today, then this only confirms the reasons why I left. You “ doubting Thomas’s” here can not seriously believe that just because you have accepted the Queens shilling that you have given up any form of free thought. You sound like you belong in the trenches, with a rifle you’re not sure is going to fire and a helmet made from cardboard, but still happy to go over the top!
I thought that the idea of slim lining the military was to make it a more intelligent and effective fighting force. Maybe I was wrong.
To even insinuate that the lads on XV179 were not fully aware of the risks and dangers involved in such Ops and willing to accept them, to the detriment of their family and social lives for NO extra pay or benefits, just goes to show that you have never served, volunteered, for such a unit. Before you ask, yes I did.
It is also a sad fact that it is the “yes” men like you who get promoted to the top ranks in this modern day force. This is the reason we are in such a state now. Men who get into a position of responsibility and as the ones before hide all the probs to the Lords above for fear of rocking the boat and a lesser pension! The guys who stay on the front line or do get promoted because they are actually exceptional at the job and not the Mess committee member, are the real backbone of the success of the RAF today.
I can not commend enough the work that Nige and the families have done to bring this to the forefront of the papers and news reports. They may have saved a life in the future, might even be your sorry @rse!
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 13:29
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Nige

Lots of time for your good work on the foam issue, however, subdifuge is not that wide of the mark IMHO. Governmental level cost controls and equipment budgets are only one of many very serious issues raised by this sad event.

Foam will be a distinct advantage, and may well stop a similar event in the future. However it would not necessarily, in isolation, have stopped the loss of XV 179 as we are all well aware. I fully concur that it's imminent arrival can only be a good thing for us all.

The BoI has mostly avoided the difficult questions raised by the low flying issue, as have many contributors both on this thread and in the wider military community. The responsibility for this doesn't lie with ten excellent blokes authorising themselves out in theatre. It lies further up the command chain. I was very pleased with the outcome of the BoI and specifically that no criticism was levelled at the crew. However, I would not be surprised that people further up the chain were pleased with the result for less noble reasons. Principally, that little or no criticism was aimed at the higher formations and supervision. Apart from a minor sideswipe at the A2 fraternity, which is difficult to reconcile, the BoI is rightly concerned with avoiding criticism (and therefore implied blame) of the crew.

Please don't read this incorrectly; I am not implying that the crew were to blame, but by doing their utmost to absolve the crew of any criticism the BoI has avoided an issue which I believe to be critical. There should be people at HQ STC, the AWC and 2 Gp who are worried about being sued by families and or investigated by the HCDC, but sadly that won't happen as the BoI let them off the hook.

The two big issues (in my opinion)and therefore the two issues I would be raising with the HCDC are;

1. Who authorises the ac to low fly? (Granted Skipper was self auth, but further up the chain giving direction to theatre)

2. Who authorised the ac to fly during the day? (still happening in theatre)

Ultimately, we don't do ourselves any favours by ducking this issue and being unnecessarily defensive/offensive to anyone who wishes to represent their opinion. This is precisely what has been done by elements who we wish to bring to task over these and many other issues.

RK

Last edited by rudekid; 15th Apr 2006 at 14:07.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 14:32
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I have never said that I didn't think foam would be a good idea, but we are being naive if we think that we will get all the kit we want on our aircraft to prevent a similar loss. This is purely down to the fact that the Government does place a cost on human lives and unfortunately whatever Nige, Chappie and others do, the panacea will never be reached. Flog your guts out if you want, but you will exhaust yourselves trying. I'm not saying that you shouldn't keep pressurising HMG, but you must understand that as I have already said, the NHS and schools are far more important to the Government than any number of body bags - fact.

ExALM - OK, I'll say it loud and clear. I think the crew were being utterly complacent in flying at low-level that awful day. The BOI may not have commented, but would you, with all of your 'special' experience have flown the same profile in that theatre with the greatest threats being AAA and RPG?
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 17:49
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It seems that the government don't really give a hoot about the Armed Forces, schools or the NHS if they are ready to throw £8 Billion of taxpayers money at african schools. Once the corrupt governments syphon off large chunks what will be left? How about they spend the money looking after those that are fighting their war, those that are looking after the injured when they come back from their war and educating those that will be fighting their future wars for them. Is it just too much to ask?
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 18:00
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Hey SubdiFuge, appropriate name by the way, do you know what the opening hours are at Kandahar? Do you know what the force protection issues are there? Do you know what runs round the airfield? Would you prefer to go in there with foam protecting your tanks? Guess what, if I had listened to you 10 weeks ago the J would not be getting foam now. You had a look at the Chinook thread recently? Do you know how difficult it is to change a BoI result? If I wanted to flog my guts out for the next 10 years I would take your advice. Hope you don't mind if I ignore it. You know what? My PM box has been full for weeks. People are helping me all the time. People from all trades, foreign military, politicians, lawyers. Ever tried helping anyone? It is a humbling experience. Think I am naive? Do you understand why our Prime Minister is giving up his job? It is nothing to do with the NHS or Schools. It is because of the unpopularity of the Iraq War. He lost his huge majority because of it and he had to do a deal with Gordon to stay in power. You appear to have little idea how damaging this war can be. We barely have enough assets for Iraq and now we are going to Afghanistan and week in week out military issues are all over the media.

I will take my own chances with what I am trying to achieve. I certainly did not start this thread to criticise my former colleagues. If you want to start having a go at the crew, please take your bile elsewhere.

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Old 15th Apr 2006, 18:28
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Nige - Yes to all of your Qs - been out there yourself recently, or have your ex flight mates been giving you access to material that you should no longer have access to - I'm sure that there is something in the OSA regarding this sort of thing!

The SoS made the decison to fit the foam after the pres of the BOI had briefed him on the likely cause of the crash. At that time, JR the SoS decided that all C130s in op theatres should get it and was recently very pissed off that no progress had been made following his quite clear direction.

Get your facts straight.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 19:01
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SubdiFuge, actually agree with you on the foam issue; briefings at the time of release of the BOI certainly implied that the decision to fit it had already been made. However, your accusation of complacency against the crew is unwelcome and untrue. As has been reported already on this thread this was not the first round to be taken by a UK C-130 in theatre, and clearly there had not been the same calamitous outcome. That the ac was fairly resilient to small arms fire was not an unreasonable conclusion to draw, and the presence of some very capable manpads in theatre a matter of fact. Obviously with the aid of your retrospectometer you would have made a different decision from the crew on tactics that day, but that was not a luxury available to them. They made the best decision they could with the information available, and to suggest otherwise does a great disservice to them and to yourself. Might I politely ask you to reconsider your statement and retract it?
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 19:26
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Hey Subby,
I am not interested in getting into a contest with you. I was having problems getting hold of the J numbers but now we have it from you. Every Hercules crossing the border is going to get foam. Nice one. Oh found one of your quotes earlier. Thought you said before that the Herc boys will never get any decent equipment and should quit trying to get it. hmm.

Originally Posted by SubdiFuge
I'd rather dig in or pitch a tent than be laughed outta town by the Matelots, Booties or Pongoes for failing to provide even a half-decent service because the 30 year old aircraft can't fly on ops because they do not have a DAS or are u/s. A disgrace, that's what the current AT fleet is....

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Old 15th Apr 2006, 21:50
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sub, seems to me you know a little too much about the goings on in government so either you have the misfortune to work for them or you must be very lonely in the forces that you serve. there is no place for someone so outdated or obnoxious as you. all has gone very quiet on the supportive front for you! no more spleen venting from the misfortunately mis-titled vage rot eh! should be called mind rot methinks as something has to be responsible for the outdated and crass opinions that are held. there are ways of putting forth a difference in opinion but it has to be said that you have not given any thought to the offensive way in which you have gone about it. the people on this thread are the ex colleagues of the crew of XV179 yet i struggle to see any respect shown for this fact.

regards the sexiness of the NHS i'm afraid to say guys you are wrong. having had the pleasure of working in it for over ten years the state that we are in now is frightening me. it is plain to see the government have lost their grip on reality. working in a neuro intensive care it used to be seen as a priority area. if you needed something then you had it. now i've had situations that i work in that would frankly make your hair curl. so monkey bum head (loving the name!) i agree wholeheartedly with you. as a result i think that ol' tony has interest in only how much arse licking he has to to keep the other countries happy. we all do such a good job of not complaining and keeping things going that he thinks that we'll carry on. it can't and won't he has to invest in his own people or it will be his downfall.....second best will not do.

nige and all those who have helped him are the real men in this. they don't kowtow to the authorities and join the rest of the yes men who basically have their heads in the sand. they identify a need and do something about it, no matter how insurmountable it appears. if we all accept the make do culture then there will be alot more bodies to bury.

so i suggest go away and think about the way to formulate your arguement properly and respectfully or don't enter into the lions den.
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Old 15th Apr 2006, 22:12
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Elegantly put Chappie. I am appalled that another military type can speak so aggressively to a bereaved relative and I apologise on his behalf. At least you are getting another view of the modern military. If only people would begin to realise that we are more powerful if we stick together and stand up for each other. Hang in there Chappie, I hope the ride is going to be worth it.
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Old 16th Apr 2006, 00:09
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[ExALM - OK, I'll say it loud and clear. I think the crew were being utterly complacent in flying at low-level that awful day. The BOI may not have commented, but would you, with all of your 'special' experience have flown the same profile in that theatre with the greatest threats being AAA and RPG?[/QUOTE]

SDF. Yes I would have and did, within places and times that were required. Strange that you pick and choose the times and situations where bravery is required, yet still not supprising!!!!!! Good luck on your poromotion push!

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Old 16th Apr 2006, 00:18
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Having read this thread from the start i applaud nige and chappie for their work and courage, and agree totaly with all that has been said and what is being done. For too long have the front line been forgotten when it comes to spending money on what is really important. One Army sergeant lost his life for the want of a piece of body armour, ten military personel lost their lives for the want of a piece of aircraft armour, what if it had been a full aircraft. How much effort would of gone into protecting our aircraft if nige hadn't of started this thread?
In the days of waisting money on JPA and BOCS, and we are not talking of small change, we are not able to provide protection as is required for some of our greater assets, (i include every soldier, sailor and Airman in theatre as our assests).
Sub, I do not see how your argument can stand, when vast amounts of cash are waisted on projects that will never enhance our ability to perform our primary role. We need to continue the campaign to obtain as much protection as possible for those in theatre, and its people like nige and chappie who are the couragous ones to take this forward.
As for the NHS chappie, couldnt agree with you more, its in as bad a state as the rest of the public services.
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Old 16th Apr 2006, 00:59
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Nige

Still only throwing one stone...

Keep your head down for the boulders then!

If you wanted to keep yourself out of a potential public slanging match, we maybe shouldn't be airing our views so frequently on a public forum. You aren't the only one with very strong opinions about this! Criticism of this thread, your opinion, my opinion is an inevitable consequence of indulging our vanities in a public forum.

I have already expressed my approval of your campaign to obtain foam for the C130 fleet. You appear to ignore, or denigrate, anyone who expresses a view outside of this or raises a further issue.

As you state in your earlier posts ' I will take my own chances with what I am trying to achieve'

Exactly what is your end state? You have a laudable aim in obtaining an additional safety system for our aircraft. Does this stop here, or are the wider and potentially more damning questions not part of your personal mandate? I would encourage you to take a wider view.

Chappie

Your Brother was a fine man, please don't take my opinions as a slight on him or any of the crew. Nige is doing a good job, it's just that we have different views on where the blame lies.

Please PM me if required.

Regards.

RK

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Old 16th Apr 2006, 05:10
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RK
You are welcome to place as many postings here as you like. I have no problem with people having a different point of view so long as it is placed with consideration for all reading this thread. But this is no ordinary thread. I am taking the Govt head on and I am especially interested in people who can help me do it. Furthermore I knew some of the dead crew very well and as a result I have been working closely with some of the families. I introduced some of them to pprune. Pprune has been incredibly powerful in all of this. I know that this thread is being read all the way up to the highest levels and I would ask that people are mindful of this. We are all working within the bounds of the BoI result. Frankly it is a waste of everyone's time to do anything else. You obviously feel that the crew were badly supervised. I would argue the opposite. SF crews work in a slightly different way. All I want is for the guys to get the right kit to do the job. I do not want to see the AOC lose his job. I have very good reason to believe that he is on side in all this. I have been open from the start as to my aims. Enhanced protection for every Herc that needs it including protection for passengers. I want to put us on an even footing. US SF Hercs have had foam for 40 years it is, in my view negligent that we did not have it. For that the relatives deserve an apology and compensation.

What I am not going to do is allow people to come on here and have a go at the crew. In fact I will pull the thread rather than see it happen.
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