Trial By Press...Again
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Trial By Press...Again
Sad to see on BBC this morning that a Maj Gen (sorry I've forgotten name) from the first GW, after trying to defend the Military against the actions of a few unworthy individuals in Iraq this last weekend, had the interview ended with what appeared to be a dressing down along the lines of "well, not a good week for the Armed Forces!" in an extremely condescending tone. The Maj Gen had explained that our boys and girls face a very difficult circumstance in the ME at the moment, and on the whole their conduct is exemplary. Whilst not condoning the acts of a couple of soldiers, he tried, very eloquently, to explain some of the stresses and strains that the troops are under. All that the BBC interveiwers pressed for was, how to blame the system, what shame our forces are bringing to our country and what we intended to do about it (I'd imagine they'd like an execution!). Whilst I understand the need for our leadership to take a formally strong view and completely villify the actions of these few men, why should we panda to a bollocking from some lilly-livered TV presenter? My advice would be to stay away from the press apart from the formal press releases from the MOD. The BBC just does not show balance any more and does not deserve our attention beyond that of the formal line! I feel for all our people in the Gulf at the moment who must ocassionally wonder why they bother.
Oh do give it a rest.
While we would all condemn the press for its lamentable standards of accuracy, and for its too frequent partisan coverage, and for its institutional ignorance of the armed forces, coverage of Iraq since the war has been pretty balanced and fair, and the BBC has stood up for issues which affect the lives of our servicemen in theatre, against a penny-pinching government who have always been willing to exploit the public popularity of the services while failing to provide the tools or the leadership necessary to get the job done.
While I would disagree with your contention that servicemen should "stay away from the press apart from the formal press releases from the MOD" it's certainly true that anyone dealing with a journo should be careful and selective about which journos he/she deals with, since the breed differ widely in their trustworthiness and sympathies. I often think that the media training dished out to those who are posted into Corporate Comms/Press/Public/Community Relations roles is inadequate.
But on this particular issue any journo (and not just the lilly-livered variety) will be giving the soldiers involved a metaphorical bollocking, quite rightly. NOTHING justifies the level of casual brutality meted out to unarmed shoeless teenagers. Even those who would accept the occasional need to beat information out of a dangerous enemy would surely see the difference between a rigorous and robust interrogation and what was a crude, unstructured and unsupervised beating?
Senior officers should not just "take a formally strong view" - this was entirely unacceptable and really does bring shame on our country and on the British Army, and those involved are scum who do not deserve to wear the uniform.
But what a shame that the Sun should publish the pictures and then distribute the video rather than putting it into the hands of the MoD first. I'm old fashioned enough to think that unless and until an MoD enquiry and process could be seen to have failed to uncover the problems and punish the guilty, it's NOT in the public interest for this video to have had a public airing.
While we would all condemn the press for its lamentable standards of accuracy, and for its too frequent partisan coverage, and for its institutional ignorance of the armed forces, coverage of Iraq since the war has been pretty balanced and fair, and the BBC has stood up for issues which affect the lives of our servicemen in theatre, against a penny-pinching government who have always been willing to exploit the public popularity of the services while failing to provide the tools or the leadership necessary to get the job done.
While I would disagree with your contention that servicemen should "stay away from the press apart from the formal press releases from the MOD" it's certainly true that anyone dealing with a journo should be careful and selective about which journos he/she deals with, since the breed differ widely in their trustworthiness and sympathies. I often think that the media training dished out to those who are posted into Corporate Comms/Press/Public/Community Relations roles is inadequate.
But on this particular issue any journo (and not just the lilly-livered variety) will be giving the soldiers involved a metaphorical bollocking, quite rightly. NOTHING justifies the level of casual brutality meted out to unarmed shoeless teenagers. Even those who would accept the occasional need to beat information out of a dangerous enemy would surely see the difference between a rigorous and robust interrogation and what was a crude, unstructured and unsupervised beating?
Senior officers should not just "take a formally strong view" - this was entirely unacceptable and really does bring shame on our country and on the British Army, and those involved are scum who do not deserve to wear the uniform.
But what a shame that the Sun should publish the pictures and then distribute the video rather than putting it into the hands of the MoD first. I'm old fashioned enough to think that unless and until an MoD enquiry and process could be seen to have failed to uncover the problems and punish the guilty, it's NOT in the public interest for this video to have had a public airing.
If this video had been handed staright to Ministry minders, do you think anyone would ever have got to hear of it?
Simiarly, the shocking revelation about the level of drug abuse in certain regiments in yesterday's Sunday Times "MoD payout to 'hush up army drug abuse' "
Time that very harsh action was taken against these miscreants.
Simiarly, the shocking revelation about the level of drug abuse in certain regiments in yesterday's Sunday Times "MoD payout to 'hush up army drug abuse' "
Time that very harsh action was taken against these miscreants.
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I`d like to know if "Whistleblower"
a) Received money for the video..
b) Attempted resolution through service channels first..
Arguably this type of thing should be dealt with (in the first instance) robustly and internally at the highest level rather than hysterically in public. The conclusions and actions then published to serve the Public Interest.
a) Received money for the video..
b) Attempted resolution through service channels first..
Arguably this type of thing should be dealt with (in the first instance) robustly and internally at the highest level rather than hysterically in public. The conclusions and actions then published to serve the Public Interest.
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Yes, what these people (if it is genuine - and I have no reason to suspect that it isn't) have done is very wrong and they do our cause (of trying to placate the Iraqi's in theatre) no good whatsoever - however do we really need to have all our washing done for us in public. The insurgent media machine in Iraq is far better than we give it credit for. The Arabic media would never release - let alone hype out of all proportion - images that would damage thier cause. Yet in order to sell papers (and I would doubt that 'The News of The World' is interested in much else) our own media seem fit to publish images/video that will do countless ammounts of damage to our creditbility and will spurn more insurgents on to take out British servicemen who, no-doubt, have nothing to do with the incident. These horrific looking incidents took place in early 2004 but 2 1/2 years later it is sailors, soldiers and airmen out there now who will pay for it. I am not suggesting that incidents like these should be brushed under the carpet but the way they are presented should be with a little responsibility. [rant off/]
But what a shame that the Sun should publish the pictures and then distribute the video rather than putting it into the hands of the MoD first. I'm old fashioned enough to think that unless and until an MoD enquiry and process could be seen to have failed to uncover the problems and punish the guilty, it's NOT in the public interest for this video to have had a public airing.
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Once again the high and mighty gutter living hacks jump on the bandwagon, they view a snapshot of life in the MEAO without knowing the full story and off they go!
I am sure it is very clear in a Home Counties public bar over your chardonnay to decide how to persecute the whole armed forces for the actions of a few idiots, who may just have had enough for one day!! As for some hacks being better than others, I saw none stand up when the mirror ran its famed fake story, and I see none with me now that the book deal and big story is not about to break. So sorry Jacko you are all the same to me you do not care who you hurt, put at increased risk or jeopardise in the quest for your next story.
Charlie sends from the frontline
I am sure it is very clear in a Home Counties public bar over your chardonnay to decide how to persecute the whole armed forces for the actions of a few idiots, who may just have had enough for one day!!
As for some hacks being better than others, I saw none stand up when the mirror ran its famed fake story, and I see none with me now that the book deal and big story is not about to break. So sorry Jacko you are all the same to me you do not care who you hurt, put at increased risk or jeopardise in the quest for your next story.Charlie sends from the frontline
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Jacko,
No member of the press has any right, even metaphorically, to bollock, dress down or generally 'have a go' at our armed forces. They should just report the facts; that is enough. How often do we see reports on the BBC morning news of the great job our troops are doing, keeping the peace, rebuilding infrastructure, helping to get a democratic Iraq on its feet. Warranted, there is an ocassional reference, an ocassional report here and there, but these acts of kindness and service are going on on a daily basis. As soon as something goes wrong, (again, I'm not condoning it or making light of a serious misdemeanor) the press jump on the sensationalist bandwaggon and paint a very poor picture of our boys and girls. How can you possibly claim balance in the current press reporting. Shame on you.
No member of the press has any right, even metaphorically, to bollock, dress down or generally 'have a go' at our armed forces. They should just report the facts; that is enough. How often do we see reports on the BBC morning news of the great job our troops are doing, keeping the peace, rebuilding infrastructure, helping to get a democratic Iraq on its feet. Warranted, there is an ocassional reference, an ocassional report here and there, but these acts of kindness and service are going on on a daily basis. As soon as something goes wrong, (again, I'm not condoning it or making light of a serious misdemeanor) the press jump on the sensationalist bandwaggon and paint a very poor picture of our boys and girls. How can you possibly claim balance in the current press reporting. Shame on you.
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Whoever sold the video and all involved with publishing it have achieved nothing more than creating the perfect recruting video for religious extremism and terrorism.
Undoubtedly this will lead to increased attacks on British forces and possibly British civilians. Those responsible for leaking this video will have the blood of their comrades and countrymen on their hands.
Undoubtedly this will lead to increased attacks on British forces and possibly British civilians. Those responsible for leaking this video will have the blood of their comrades and countrymen on their hands.
Press Release:
"These incidents happened several months ago.
The soldiers involved have been disciplined, and their SNCOs severely reprimanded. The matter is closed."
Only they weren't, were they? All those involved, and all the section who walked past doing nothing should be hammered.
But we big boys don't tell tales do we? Not manly.
CG
"These incidents happened several months ago.
The soldiers involved have been disciplined, and their SNCOs severely reprimanded. The matter is closed."
Only they weren't, were they? All those involved, and all the section who walked past doing nothing should be hammered.
But we big boys don't tell tales do we? Not manly.
CG
Makes my blood boil when people like Jacko leap to the defence of the press the instant someone dares to disagree.
Yes it looks like this video is real and the people involved (including the bystanders) deserve all they get.
What they dont need is reporters, the majority of whom, (well i never saw any) have never been to the sandpit, trying to run the British Military.
Walk the walk as they say.
Be good if they also stuck to the facts - no thought not.
Yes it looks like this video is real and the people involved (including the bystanders) deserve all they get.
What they dont need is reporters, the majority of whom, (well i never saw any) have never been to the sandpit, trying to run the British Military.
Walk the walk as they say.
Be good if they also stuck to the facts - no thought not.
"How often do we see reports on the BBC morning news of the great job our troops are doing, keeping the peace, rebuilding infrastructure, helping to get a democratic Iraq on its feet."
Not often in the morning news headlines, because it patently isn't news. "British Army displays great professionalism" is hardly "Man bites dog" is it? But new deployments, outstanding incidents etc. Army participation in news events (eg elections) are reported, and there are frequent 'Mike Hack reports from his patrol with the Queen's Royal Shunt Tappers in Basrah' type reports, which always seem to emphasise the professionalism of the troops, and the good they are doing in Iraq.
But there is a great deal of media coverage (on the BBC and elsewhere) of exactly what you describe. More often in regional and local programmes and in local and regional papers where there is a local connection with a particular individual or unit. There is certainly a great deal of supportive and sympathetic coverage of casualties, and the media tends to take the side of 'our boys' when procurement people or politicos let them down.
But again, when British troops act in a way that disgraces their uniform and shames their country, they deserve censure.
Not often in the morning news headlines, because it patently isn't news. "British Army displays great professionalism" is hardly "Man bites dog" is it? But new deployments, outstanding incidents etc. Army participation in news events (eg elections) are reported, and there are frequent 'Mike Hack reports from his patrol with the Queen's Royal Shunt Tappers in Basrah' type reports, which always seem to emphasise the professionalism of the troops, and the good they are doing in Iraq.
But there is a great deal of media coverage (on the BBC and elsewhere) of exactly what you describe. More often in regional and local programmes and in local and regional papers where there is a local connection with a particular individual or unit. There is certainly a great deal of supportive and sympathetic coverage of casualties, and the media tends to take the side of 'our boys' when procurement people or politicos let them down.
But again, when British troops act in a way that disgraces their uniform and shames their country, they deserve censure.
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I'd love to see a compound full of journalists attacked by a large riot of Iraqi civilians and insurgents with rocks, grenades, mortars etc. And then possibly having then seen some of their number; possibly some of their good friends blown-up, killed or injured.
And then, having caught some of the rioters see just how they would "interview them."
I suppose it would be tea and biscuits and such. Yeah right!
The army trains it's men to fight wars, not be Policemen; although they often do end up in a policing role and pretty much do a stirling job. However, I would expect that at times some will react a bit over the top.. but hey! nobody died!
And then, having caught some of the rioters see just how they would "interview them."
I suppose it would be tea and biscuits and such. Yeah right!
The army trains it's men to fight wars, not be Policemen; although they often do end up in a policing role and pretty much do a stirling job. However, I would expect that at times some will react a bit over the top.. but hey! nobody died!
Had this happened when the RMPs were murdered, or even when that APC was set ablaze and stoned by a mob, and had it been targeted against people involved in those events, then many people would take a more lenient view. Especially if the beating had been administered immediately, as soon as the youths were apprehended.
But it didn't, and there was enough breathing space for hot heads to have cooled as the youths were frogmarched back to the compound where these cowards then had their fun.
The level of violence was disproportionate, uncontrolled, and inexcusable. Beating unarmed barefoot teenagers with batons is not what the British Army should be doing, and that piece of pondlife who kicked one of them in the crotch, from behind, deserves to have the same done to him, the yellow bastard.
Thanks to these half wits, all Brits will now be hated and reviled more than they were last week, and the reputation of our armed forces will have dipped further.
But it didn't, and there was enough breathing space for hot heads to have cooled as the youths were frogmarched back to the compound where these cowards then had their fun.
The level of violence was disproportionate, uncontrolled, and inexcusable. Beating unarmed barefoot teenagers with batons is not what the British Army should be doing, and that piece of pondlife who kicked one of them in the crotch, from behind, deserves to have the same done to him, the yellow bastard.
Thanks to these half wits, all Brits will now be hated and reviled more than they were last week, and the reputation of our armed forces will have dipped further.
Well said Testing... where were the press when the Army policeman got a lot worse than these teenagers did.
As i said... walk the walk.
Edited becuase i sick of armchair writers
As i said... walk the walk.
Edited becuase i sick of armchair writers
I don't pretend to condone what was going on ...... but I am trying to understand what was going on in the minds of those soldiers, and all soldiers in Iraq, who have to face the daily dangers. Waiting for the next mortar, bullet (or hail of bullets, more like) or roadside bomb.
Do we really understand what that does to ones mind? Every day for months on end? Do we really? Terribly easy to sit in judgement back here in our comfy chairs. Iraq is on f****d-up place. No fun to be there, whatsoever.
Do we really understand what that does to ones mind? Every day for months on end? Do we really? Terribly easy to sit in judgement back here in our comfy chairs. Iraq is on f****d-up place. No fun to be there, whatsoever.
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the media and the forces
Time to put my head back above the parapet I think. The media do I am afraid have a role in reporting on and yes commenting on the behaviour of anyone in public life - that is actually the role they should perform keeping the public informed of what is going on - but the opinion has of course to be kept out of the news pages. Most of the hacks writing about this today will have been to both Afghanistan and Iraq and with respect most of them would have been there with the army which is perhaps why a bluejob wouldnt see them.
I realise that I am in danger of sounding like my grandad used to but I spent 15 years in the army and while there were of course the odd occasions when things went badly wrong in Northern Ireland - Bloody Sunday among them - I cannot imagine anyone I served with doing some of the things that have gone on.
It has not been just one regiment there has been a depressing series of them. Someone mentioned the drugs story. I may be being naive but I was seriously shocked when I heard the interview and the evidence of what appears to have gone on in that particular regiment. I was also seriously shocked by the evidence in the court martial involving the guys in the Breadbasket case where it was clear that officers had breached Geneva rules and not been even investigated, while a corporal who simply stopped the abuse the minute he saw it, and bawled out his men, but didnt report it up the chain, was put away for longer than anyone else.
There is something seriously awry with the British Army at the moment and while it is of course true that most of them are heroes who should make us all proud, it is no longer sensible to keep saying it is just a few bad apples. Certainly it is a very small minority but it clearly isnt just a one-off. Just read this evidence to the defence select committee on the treatment received by the parents of the kids who committed suicide at Deepcut. It's nothing to do with Iraq and being under immense strain, as the guys in the video undoubtedly were, this is just the behaviour of troops in bases in the UK and just as disgracefully officers in charge of them who clearly did not deserve to hold a commission. Given the circumstances, it is in some ways far more damning.
http://www.publications.parliament.u...3/41201p04.htm
I realise that I am in danger of sounding like my grandad used to but I spent 15 years in the army and while there were of course the odd occasions when things went badly wrong in Northern Ireland - Bloody Sunday among them - I cannot imagine anyone I served with doing some of the things that have gone on.
It has not been just one regiment there has been a depressing series of them. Someone mentioned the drugs story. I may be being naive but I was seriously shocked when I heard the interview and the evidence of what appears to have gone on in that particular regiment. I was also seriously shocked by the evidence in the court martial involving the guys in the Breadbasket case where it was clear that officers had breached Geneva rules and not been even investigated, while a corporal who simply stopped the abuse the minute he saw it, and bawled out his men, but didnt report it up the chain, was put away for longer than anyone else.
There is something seriously awry with the British Army at the moment and while it is of course true that most of them are heroes who should make us all proud, it is no longer sensible to keep saying it is just a few bad apples. Certainly it is a very small minority but it clearly isnt just a one-off. Just read this evidence to the defence select committee on the treatment received by the parents of the kids who committed suicide at Deepcut. It's nothing to do with Iraq and being under immense strain, as the guys in the video undoubtedly were, this is just the behaviour of troops in bases in the UK and just as disgracefully officers in charge of them who clearly did not deserve to hold a commission. Given the circumstances, it is in some ways far more damning.
http://www.publications.parliament.u...3/41201p04.htm
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Twenty five years ago I joined a professional service which took, and I believe still takes, pride in it's behaviour and conduct whether during operations or not. If we condone the acts of those few among us who abuse and commit 'atrocities', we are guilty of a crime no less abhorrent than those of the odious regimes whom we villify. I understand the pressure and frustrations of active service; I've done my share in recent times, but while stepping off the moral high ground is arguably understandable, it is never, ever acceptable !
