Afghanistan Deployment
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Stretched RAF may use civilian aircraft for Afghan mission
From the Scotsman.
Stretched RAF may use civilian aircraft for Afghan mission
JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
THE RAF will be put under such pressure by the deployment of British troops to Afghanistan that soldiers could be flown out to the mission on chartered civilian aircraft, it has emerged.
John Reid, the Defence Secretary, will today tell MPs about the deployment, which could see another 3,500 troops sent to Afghanistan as part of a NATO mission.
The Ministry of Defence yesterday confirmed that 3,000 troops from the 16th Air Assault Brigade had been training on Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire this week "for a possible deployment to Afghanistan".
The mission is already beset by confusion. Britain and NATO partners argue about the precise role British forces will play in Afghanistan, as well as how many troops other countries will offer to the mission.
Now Air Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the head of the Royal Air Force, has publicly warned that supporting the Afghan deployment will put his fast-shrinking service under severe strain.
The RAF is losing more than 12,000 personnel and more than 100 aircraft as the government restructures the armed forces.
"Two [simultaneous] operations will put considerable stress on our air transport fleet," Sir Jock said.
"We can cover the operations, but it will be testing."
The problem facing RAF planners is the shortage of transport aircraft equipped with defensive aids systems and anti-missile countermeasures.
Hundreds of troops due to return from Iraq were effectively stranded for several days before Christmas due to the shortage of such planes in working order.
One option under consideration for the Afghan mission is said to be using commercial flights to ferry troops to relatively stable countries in the region such as Pakistan or Uzbekistan, before transferring them on to RAF planes equipped for the hazardous flight into southern Afghanistan. Once they have arrived in Helmand province, the British troops will embark on a mission that is still poorly defined.
British military planners see their principal responsibilities as helping reconstruct the shattered region, and in the process tackling local drug gangs who grow poppies for heroin, as well as any remnants of the former Taleban regime.
But other NATO members, particularly the US, are calling for the British forces to take on a counter-terrorism role, helping American special forces pursue members of al-Qaeda in the unstable Pakistani border area.
Last week, the Ministry of Defence accused Victoria Nuland, the US ambassador, of being "misleading" about the British mission after she suggested that UK forces would be hunting terrorists.
There are also questions about which countries will serve alongside Britain's forces. NATO expects the Netherlands to provide up to 1,200 troops, although that deployment is subject to a knife-edge vote in the Dutch parliament next week.
In the Commons yesterday, Dr Reid conceded that uncertainty over Britain's allies could prevent him from making a definitive announcement to MPs today.
"I am not satisfied... that we have a NATO configuration of military troops around us which satisfies me," he said.
Stretched RAF may use civilian aircraft for Afghan mission
JAMES KIRKUP
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
THE RAF will be put under such pressure by the deployment of British troops to Afghanistan that soldiers could be flown out to the mission on chartered civilian aircraft, it has emerged.
John Reid, the Defence Secretary, will today tell MPs about the deployment, which could see another 3,500 troops sent to Afghanistan as part of a NATO mission.
The Ministry of Defence yesterday confirmed that 3,000 troops from the 16th Air Assault Brigade had been training on Salisbury Plain, Wiltshire this week "for a possible deployment to Afghanistan".
The mission is already beset by confusion. Britain and NATO partners argue about the precise role British forces will play in Afghanistan, as well as how many troops other countries will offer to the mission.
Now Air Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the head of the Royal Air Force, has publicly warned that supporting the Afghan deployment will put his fast-shrinking service under severe strain.
The RAF is losing more than 12,000 personnel and more than 100 aircraft as the government restructures the armed forces.
"Two [simultaneous] operations will put considerable stress on our air transport fleet," Sir Jock said.
"We can cover the operations, but it will be testing."
The problem facing RAF planners is the shortage of transport aircraft equipped with defensive aids systems and anti-missile countermeasures.
Hundreds of troops due to return from Iraq were effectively stranded for several days before Christmas due to the shortage of such planes in working order.
One option under consideration for the Afghan mission is said to be using commercial flights to ferry troops to relatively stable countries in the region such as Pakistan or Uzbekistan, before transferring them on to RAF planes equipped for the hazardous flight into southern Afghanistan. Once they have arrived in Helmand province, the British troops will embark on a mission that is still poorly defined.
British military planners see their principal responsibilities as helping reconstruct the shattered region, and in the process tackling local drug gangs who grow poppies for heroin, as well as any remnants of the former Taleban regime.
But other NATO members, particularly the US, are calling for the British forces to take on a counter-terrorism role, helping American special forces pursue members of al-Qaeda in the unstable Pakistani border area.
Last week, the Ministry of Defence accused Victoria Nuland, the US ambassador, of being "misleading" about the British mission after she suggested that UK forces would be hunting terrorists.
There are also questions about which countries will serve alongside Britain's forces. NATO expects the Netherlands to provide up to 1,200 troops, although that deployment is subject to a knife-edge vote in the Dutch parliament next week.
In the Commons yesterday, Dr Reid conceded that uncertainty over Britain's allies could prevent him from making a definitive announcement to MPs today.
"I am not satisfied... that we have a NATO configuration of military troops around us which satisfies me," he said.
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All done now!
Re the Scotsman post... I think it was foolish of them to be so speculative prior to the statement made today. The mission has clearly been defined as reconstruction and redevelopment; whether forces can be seconded to the US-led war on terrorism from the NATO-led ISAF has yet to be seen, but that would constitute a departure from the mission at hand. Bearing in mind one of the key principles of war is selection and maintenance of the aim, that would be a foolhardy thing to do.
If security for Afghanistan means defeating terrorism within the area of deployment, however, that may fall within the TORs. The main thing here is that we'll have to wait and see what the exact TORs are.
Dr Reid HAS made a definitive statement. He did not say that this deployment might happen, he said that it WILL happen.
The mission in Helmland is NOT poorly-defined. The end state has been defined, and all other plans will, in the time-honoured and historically sound way, be set up to achieve the end state.
The Scotsman, along with other organs like the Independant do more damage than anything else to the morale and fighting effectiveness of British servicemen. Yes, we are beset by budget constraints, we face shortages of manpower and aircraft, we don't necessarily have the best kit in the world, but we are to a man the best fighting force in the world. How are we supposed to respond when newspapers peddle rumours of poor mission planning, ill-defined missions, lies, indecision, etc? How can we concentrate on the task at hand if all we receive from some of this country's supposedly best newspapers is a stream of invective, criticism, and unjustified complaints against the abilities of British commanders? Really, they should let us get on with our jobs and report the NEWS, as is their job, instead of the GOSSIP, which is what people buy the Sun and the Mirror for.
Re the Scotsman post... I think it was foolish of them to be so speculative prior to the statement made today. The mission has clearly been defined as reconstruction and redevelopment; whether forces can be seconded to the US-led war on terrorism from the NATO-led ISAF has yet to be seen, but that would constitute a departure from the mission at hand. Bearing in mind one of the key principles of war is selection and maintenance of the aim, that would be a foolhardy thing to do.
If security for Afghanistan means defeating terrorism within the area of deployment, however, that may fall within the TORs. The main thing here is that we'll have to wait and see what the exact TORs are.
Dr Reid HAS made a definitive statement. He did not say that this deployment might happen, he said that it WILL happen.
The mission in Helmland is NOT poorly-defined. The end state has been defined, and all other plans will, in the time-honoured and historically sound way, be set up to achieve the end state.
The Scotsman, along with other organs like the Independant do more damage than anything else to the morale and fighting effectiveness of British servicemen. Yes, we are beset by budget constraints, we face shortages of manpower and aircraft, we don't necessarily have the best kit in the world, but we are to a man the best fighting force in the world. How are we supposed to respond when newspapers peddle rumours of poor mission planning, ill-defined missions, lies, indecision, etc? How can we concentrate on the task at hand if all we receive from some of this country's supposedly best newspapers is a stream of invective, criticism, and unjustified complaints against the abilities of British commanders? Really, they should let us get on with our jobs and report the NEWS, as is their job, instead of the GOSSIP, which is what people buy the Sun and the Mirror for.
Last edited by tablet_eraser; 26th Jan 2006 at 13:14.
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UK more than doubles Afghan troops
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/News...AIN-TROOPS.xml
LONDON (Reuters) - The government announced 3,300 new troops as part of a major mission to southern Afghanistan on Thursday, without waiting for NATO allies who have so far failed to commit to sending forces.
The new deployment, announced in parliament by Defence Secretary John Reid, will take Britain's total force in Afghanistan to 5,700 after it assumes command of a NATO mission there in May.
The troops would take the NATO force into the dangerous south of the country for the first time. Until now, NATO has operated in the north and west, but the more volatile south has been patrolled by the United States outside NATO.
The announcement of the British mission to the south has been expected for months but has been held up as other European countries dragged their feet, notably the Netherlands, which has yet to confirm whether it will contribute 1,200 troops.
Reid said he had spoken to his Dutch and Danish counterparts earlier on Thursday. Previously he had said he would not announce the UK force until he was satisfied that allies would provide enough troops.
Asked if Britain would be left to fill a potential gap left by the Dutch or others, Reid said London would not commit more troops and expected NATO to provide the necessary numbers.
"Over and beyond the troop numbers I have mentioned, no, we are not going to plug any gaps for others," he told parliament.
Reid expressed confidence all NATO nations would decide to join the mission and said he hoped Britain's troop announcement would have a "catalyst" effect on other countries' decisions.
JULY OPERATIONAL DATE
He said he aimed for the new British mission to be operational by July, several months after Britain takes over command of the NATO peace force.
The team will include Apache attack helicopters as well as a "provincial reconstruction team" aiding the rebuilding of Afghanistan, under a Canadian commander reporting to the British commander in Kabul.
The government acknowledges that the mission to the south, where American troops have fought Taliban guerrillas, is more dangerous than the existing NATO mission. But as Washington's main ally, it wants other European countries to share the risk.
"The risks are nothing when compared to the dangers to our country of allowing Afghanistan to fall back into the clutches of the Taliban and international terrorism," Reid said.
The UK forces would not have a counter-terrorism role, which will still be handled by the U.S.-led coalition in the south, but would have enough muscle to respond "robustly" if attacked.
The 3,300 new troops are in addition to about 1,000 extra troops that Britain has promised for the headquarters in Kabul when it takes over NATO's ISAF Afghan peacekeeping mission, and about 1,000 in place already in the north.
Engineers will be sent to help build a base, and Reid said the total British force in Afghanistan would peak at about 5,700 and then stabilise at about 4,700.
They would form part of a NATO force that would expand to more than 18,000 troops countrywide, including about 9,000 in the south, Reid said.
The United States has about 18,000 troops in the south, but expects to reduce their numbers as NATO takes more responsibility for that part of the country.
LONDON (Reuters) - The government announced 3,300 new troops as part of a major mission to southern Afghanistan on Thursday, without waiting for NATO allies who have so far failed to commit to sending forces.
The new deployment, announced in parliament by Defence Secretary John Reid, will take Britain's total force in Afghanistan to 5,700 after it assumes command of a NATO mission there in May.
The troops would take the NATO force into the dangerous south of the country for the first time. Until now, NATO has operated in the north and west, but the more volatile south has been patrolled by the United States outside NATO.
The announcement of the British mission to the south has been expected for months but has been held up as other European countries dragged their feet, notably the Netherlands, which has yet to confirm whether it will contribute 1,200 troops.
Reid said he had spoken to his Dutch and Danish counterparts earlier on Thursday. Previously he had said he would not announce the UK force until he was satisfied that allies would provide enough troops.
Asked if Britain would be left to fill a potential gap left by the Dutch or others, Reid said London would not commit more troops and expected NATO to provide the necessary numbers.
"Over and beyond the troop numbers I have mentioned, no, we are not going to plug any gaps for others," he told parliament.
Reid expressed confidence all NATO nations would decide to join the mission and said he hoped Britain's troop announcement would have a "catalyst" effect on other countries' decisions.
JULY OPERATIONAL DATE
He said he aimed for the new British mission to be operational by July, several months after Britain takes over command of the NATO peace force.
The team will include Apache attack helicopters as well as a "provincial reconstruction team" aiding the rebuilding of Afghanistan, under a Canadian commander reporting to the British commander in Kabul.
The government acknowledges that the mission to the south, where American troops have fought Taliban guerrillas, is more dangerous than the existing NATO mission. But as Washington's main ally, it wants other European countries to share the risk.
"The risks are nothing when compared to the dangers to our country of allowing Afghanistan to fall back into the clutches of the Taliban and international terrorism," Reid said.
The UK forces would not have a counter-terrorism role, which will still be handled by the U.S.-led coalition in the south, but would have enough muscle to respond "robustly" if attacked.
The 3,300 new troops are in addition to about 1,000 extra troops that Britain has promised for the headquarters in Kabul when it takes over NATO's ISAF Afghan peacekeeping mission, and about 1,000 in place already in the north.
Engineers will be sent to help build a base, and Reid said the total British force in Afghanistan would peak at about 5,700 and then stabilise at about 4,700.
They would form part of a NATO force that would expand to more than 18,000 troops countrywide, including about 9,000 in the south, Reid said.
The United States has about 18,000 troops in the south, but expects to reduce their numbers as NATO takes more responsibility for that part of the country.
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Oh Bugger ,
Boys just be safe...and give em 'Hells kitchen' if they want a fight. I heard a good man once say that "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 8". So it's on my command unleash hell..............or hellfire or whatever!
I hope that our lords and masters endure many sleepless nights to come hoping that their bluff to the ministry pays off!
Good Luck....and remember 'if it glows then it goes' ..........'those that are not running away are only well dicisplined'.......'a fight thats fair is badly planned, bug out if you don't have the advantage'.......better to evade, re-attack and win.....than fight the unknown and loose!
PP
Boys just be safe...and give em 'Hells kitchen' if they want a fight. I heard a good man once say that "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 8". So it's on my command unleash hell..............or hellfire or whatever!
I hope that our lords and masters endure many sleepless nights to come hoping that their bluff to the ministry pays off!
Good Luck....and remember 'if it glows then it goes' ..........'those that are not running away are only well dicisplined'.......'a fight thats fair is badly planned, bug out if you don't have the advantage'.......better to evade, re-attack and win.....than fight the unknown and loose!
PP
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Dunno. I'm on ERS for a unit that might deploy, and given the length of the deployment if they do go I'm sure I'll follow shortly afterwards.
My interest has more to do with the fact that I'm on watchkeeper's stand-down and have the time to spend watching BBC Parliament and honing my dubious journalistic skills!
My interest has more to do with the fact that I'm on watchkeeper's stand-down and have the time to spend watching BBC Parliament and honing my dubious journalistic skills!
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The problem with this being a so-called NATO push, is just that - its NATO and frankly it simply don't work!
The 10 years we spent policing Bosnia and Kosova proved that. The Germans don't fly on this day, the Dutch on another day. Some will fly over this area, some won't, its a complete farce. I regret to say I spent some time flying NATO AWACS during GW1, and frankly, how we didn't lose a jet amazes me!I was scared on more than one occasion. Was I glad to get back home and onto the E-3D, at least you had people and crews you could rely on, even if they were a little inexperienced at first.
Good luck to all you boys and girls going out there, may God speed you all safely home quickly.
Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, time to raise a glass to our even more streched armed forces'
The 10 years we spent policing Bosnia and Kosova proved that. The Germans don't fly on this day, the Dutch on another day. Some will fly over this area, some won't, its a complete farce. I regret to say I spent some time flying NATO AWACS during GW1, and frankly, how we didn't lose a jet amazes me!I was scared on more than one occasion. Was I glad to get back home and onto the E-3D, at least you had people and crews you could rely on, even if they were a little inexperienced at first.
Good luck to all you boys and girls going out there, may God speed you all safely home quickly.
Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, time to raise a glass to our even more streched armed forces'
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Compressorstall:
''NATO needs to cut its teeth, unfortunately this will be in a country that has given even superpowers a good shoeing.''
Oh really? And which superpowers would that be then???
''NATO needs to cut its teeth, unfortunately this will be in a country that has given even superpowers a good shoeing.''
Oh really? And which superpowers would that be then???
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Arty, some reading for you on your long trips:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...lance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...lance&n=283155
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Reservists in 'Stan
Our Reserve Sqn was asked to provide volunteers for this deployment back as far as Oct 05. Several of our people have put up their hands to go, and will be off with the rest of the deployment in due course.
Perhaps I'm a little over sensitive about reservists, but I'm not sure if Wycombe was taking the p**s or not. Us weekend warriors have been busy for some years in all sorts of places doing all sorts of jobs that are considered necessary by the powers that be. I have been back in uniform a couple of times for extended periods, as have almost all of the guys and gals I know in reserves various country wide. I would not hide the fact that somes years back there was an element who considered the reserves to be a bit of a social club, but these have been removed (in the main) over the last few years, and the force is now much better trained, much fitter and keen to do the job.
I must say that I get a little annoyed at times with the attitude of people who should know better. Regulars are complaining about everything in sight, and saying how they want out as soon as poss. My people can walk whenever they like just by handing in their ID card and uniform, yet they turn up whenever they can and volunteer to give up the easy civi life to go to crap parts of the world and get shot at. Then they come back and often ask to do it again.
Our respective services are now so short, that they rely on reservists to fill everyday posts in order to get the day to day job done. Bit of a sad state of affairs in my view.
Good luck to all off this time both regular and reservist, keep yer 'eads down, and I wish you all safe return to your own lands in due course.
Ray
Perhaps I'm a little over sensitive about reservists, but I'm not sure if Wycombe was taking the p**s or not. Us weekend warriors have been busy for some years in all sorts of places doing all sorts of jobs that are considered necessary by the powers that be. I have been back in uniform a couple of times for extended periods, as have almost all of the guys and gals I know in reserves various country wide. I would not hide the fact that somes years back there was an element who considered the reserves to be a bit of a social club, but these have been removed (in the main) over the last few years, and the force is now much better trained, much fitter and keen to do the job.
I must say that I get a little annoyed at times with the attitude of people who should know better. Regulars are complaining about everything in sight, and saying how they want out as soon as poss. My people can walk whenever they like just by handing in their ID card and uniform, yet they turn up whenever they can and volunteer to give up the easy civi life to go to crap parts of the world and get shot at. Then they come back and often ask to do it again.
Our respective services are now so short, that they rely on reservists to fill everyday posts in order to get the day to day job done. Bit of a sad state of affairs in my view.
Good luck to all off this time both regular and reservist, keep yer 'eads down, and I wish you all safe return to your own lands in due course.
Ray
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As a serving member Ray, I would say that I appreciate the role reservists play today. I weould go as far to say I admire them for what they do, as a regular it's what I get paid for and what I signed up to, and whilst the same is true to a certain extent for reservists, the contribution many of them make is beyond what certainly I would do in the same position.
Thought it was good of CAS to go public on the effect this would have on the AT fleet. "Testing" is certainly an apt word for the coming months......
Thought it was good of CAS to go public on the effect this would have on the AT fleet. "Testing" is certainly an apt word for the coming months......
Is this the sound of elastic stretching beyond limits I hear again !!!
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Originally Posted by tablet_eraser
The British Helmland Task Force will include:
Elements of HQ 16AAB and and airborne infantry battle-group based initially around 3Bn Para Regt.
8 Apache AH-47 from 9 Regt AAC.
4 Lynx SH from 9 Regt AAC.
6 Chinook SH from 27 Sqn.
Elements of HQ 16AAB and and airborne infantry battle-group based initially around 3Bn Para Regt.
8 Apache AH-47 from 9 Regt AAC.
4 Lynx SH from 9 Regt AAC.
6 Chinook SH from 27 Sqn.
Is that 8 tandem rotor attack helicopters I see there? Where have they been hiding this wondrous new invention???? Somebody seems to have done the right thing and issued it to the Army though, hurrah!
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Grunt, it would simply be reinventing the Go-Go bird:
http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/ach47a.htm
The RAF is quite good at operating things with weapons on too.
http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/ach47a.htm
The RAF is quite good at operating things with weapons on too.
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Let me get this right.
NATO coalition deploys to Afghanistan (not true if Australia nd NZ are involved, they used to or still are part of SEATO), so is it a UN Force?. This; overtretches UK completely (IRAQ, Bosnia still running) and US (ditto and trying to re-org into 35 Bde Structure), Dutch may or may not play. French and Germans certainly will not.
Hamas now ruling party in Palestine move against Isreal, Syria who have garaged and stored most of pre 2003 Iraqi hardware, come out in support. US jewish lobby cries foul and demands US intervention to assist, al la Yom Kippur. Iran send military aid and funds to Hamas. They who have blagged their way to developing a Gen 1 nuke, call the US bluff and warm it up. At the same time mass forces on the East Iraq border, near to UK TOR who have diddly squat left and are containing a corrupt new model Iraqi Army and police Force. USAF deployed to bomb Iran back to the stone age. Overstretch !
China who has slowly been building a reasonably well equipped and sizable force with a reach capability, notes all this, and makes good its long standing promise to repatriate Taiwan! US has a non-aggression pact with the former part of China and has to deploy all capital carriers, all Far East based forces and hold a theatre large scale operation to assist Taiwan.
N. Korea with its large standing army of under nourished conscripts, wacks a few long thong missiles into Seoul and crosses the border to raid all food retail outlets. US Forces in Korea assist...or answer B, already gone to Taiwan.
UK unable to bail out George W, with his hold win hold scenario, as Robert Mugabe starts land filling Zimbabwe with executed opponents, who are all British Commonwealth citizens and or passport holders. UK deploys the Army Cadet Force by Virgin Atlantic to conduct a policing action and repatriation mission.
Russian communists stage coup in Moscow in order to turn the Gas back on.
Meanwhile in the UK, the NHS which has the biggest budget since records began, refuses to fund Defence, as gay, one legged, single parent, ethically challenged, doley's scream to be protected from Ivan and French Farmers.
This sounds just great...could only be make believe...could it
NATO coalition deploys to Afghanistan (not true if Australia nd NZ are involved, they used to or still are part of SEATO), so is it a UN Force?. This; overtretches UK completely (IRAQ, Bosnia still running) and US (ditto and trying to re-org into 35 Bde Structure), Dutch may or may not play. French and Germans certainly will not.
Hamas now ruling party in Palestine move against Isreal, Syria who have garaged and stored most of pre 2003 Iraqi hardware, come out in support. US jewish lobby cries foul and demands US intervention to assist, al la Yom Kippur. Iran send military aid and funds to Hamas. They who have blagged their way to developing a Gen 1 nuke, call the US bluff and warm it up. At the same time mass forces on the East Iraq border, near to UK TOR who have diddly squat left and are containing a corrupt new model Iraqi Army and police Force. USAF deployed to bomb Iran back to the stone age. Overstretch !
China who has slowly been building a reasonably well equipped and sizable force with a reach capability, notes all this, and makes good its long standing promise to repatriate Taiwan! US has a non-aggression pact with the former part of China and has to deploy all capital carriers, all Far East based forces and hold a theatre large scale operation to assist Taiwan.
N. Korea with its large standing army of under nourished conscripts, wacks a few long thong missiles into Seoul and crosses the border to raid all food retail outlets. US Forces in Korea assist...or answer B, already gone to Taiwan.
UK unable to bail out George W, with his hold win hold scenario, as Robert Mugabe starts land filling Zimbabwe with executed opponents, who are all British Commonwealth citizens and or passport holders. UK deploys the Army Cadet Force by Virgin Atlantic to conduct a policing action and repatriation mission.
Russian communists stage coup in Moscow in order to turn the Gas back on.
Meanwhile in the UK, the NHS which has the biggest budget since records began, refuses to fund Defence, as gay, one legged, single parent, ethically challenged, doley's scream to be protected from Ivan and French Farmers.
This sounds just great...could only be make believe...could it
..at which point the Martians decided that enough was enough....
“Lffr ujf cmppez opjtf epxo, zpv mpu” ,they said to G Dubya, “..ps xf’mm sfbmmz hjwf zpv tpnfuijoh up uijol bcpvu!”
“Lffr ujf cmppez opjtf epxo, zpv mpu” ,they said to G Dubya, “..ps xf’mm sfbmmz hjwf zpv tpnfuijoh up uijol bcpvu!”