Westlands gets Merlin CSP contract

[Duncan Bucket]

TMT,
Believe me its not worth the effort. Many in the Lynx community think that Merlin/CSP is stealing their money and will attempt to discredit it whenever they can. Its like a broken record. Hopefully southside will back at sea soon, a place he mentions a lot but never seems to be there (unfortunately), and once again the Fleet will have their mail
Oh, and money aside for a minute, how does a Capability SUSTAINMENT programme involve adding an ASM? Surely that would be a Capability IMPROVEMENT?

[southside]

Good point there fella. So where are the weapons? And as far as crashes...How many have crashed? We bought 44....were sustaining 30...so 14 have crashed...?

Bloomin 'eck. Thats nearly 30% of them. So if we haven't crashed 14...where \are they? why are they not being upgraded?

Nope. Im sorry mate. In order for you to convince me that this white elephant os worth spending another penny on it the aircraft will have to stop being supported by the Lynx.

PS. I am at sea at the moment. Drifting around about 15 miles E of Eddy.

[tucumseh]

The original post does say “30, with an option for a further 8”. This is MoD speak for (pick any two);

a. We know we need 38 but can only afford 30
b. Further cutbacks are anticipated so don’t expect the option to be taken up
c. We can’t find the other 8, as we are no longer obligated to know how many assets we have, or where
d. We no longer have the ships to deploy on
e. Oppo no longer has the subs to detect

I question “sustaining” a capability which is the manifestation of an early 80s concept/doctrine/ requirement. The inference is that the original Naval Staff Requirement and Use Study still holds good, but some old kit just needs updating because it has become unsupportable.

[Jackonicko]

Wasn't Merlin CSP at one time to have included the addition of a robust ASV capability (including a missile), to allow it to be considered as a SCMR option?

Is such a capability no longer to be provided?

Is Merlin CSP really just going to be a more capable and more modern ASW aircraft?

Really?

And is the present fleet 38 aircraft, or more than that?

[Jackonicko]

Are the extra aircraft (those not to be converted) earmarked for MASC, or will those aircraft be modified from CSP airframes?

[sprucemoose]

What-ho, Jack-o,

The answer I got from the IPTL was that the eight options and the MASC requirement are merely coincidental.

But it's an interesting coincidence, isn't it?

[Jackonicko]

It is indeed, Sprucey.

Perhaps we'll discuss it further over a 'Sling?

Jacko

[fagin's goat]

Any tax payer defending the huge further cost of Merlin needs a visit to a doctor. Bang for buck? Crazy money for a good helicopter but add up the huge infrastructure and those shining various parts of their anatomy and it adds up to a sorry story.
No missile, no proper eo device, ancient computers, crap tail rotor......but made by Westland...so that's OK then?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

No missile: Valid point, but the Italians have got one, so why haven't we? I got told by someone from 824 NAS was that it was being talked about, but due to costs.........that was in March 2004 btw.
No EO: Then what about the Wescam thing.......see this.

Can't respond to your other points!!

Jacko, MASC has been mentioned elsewhere on PPRuNe, and also other places. See this very informative page.

Also this page about Merlin lists Anti Ship Missiles if you click on Armament.

Oddly, it also lists Airborne Mine Counter Measures as a possible role.........as if the MOD is going to pay for that.

[sprucemoose]

WEBF - the Merlin with the Wescam pod only has that because Lockheed have loaned it to the navy at company expense. They hoped it would get an EO/IR pod in as part of CSP, but it isn't currently included.

The Italians are currently integrating the Marte Mk2S anti-ship missile, but it's not operational yet.

Jacko: I'm afraid you'll have to have that sling without me - I'm staying home to do new dad stuff.

[Biggus]

Surely the Merlin situation is all the result of history. As I understand it the Merlin was designed in the days of the cold war. At that time the RN was committed to providing ASW capability in support of the American strike fleet as part of the NATO WWIII scenario. The CVS were full of ASW Sea Kings with only a nominal SHAR package (sorry WEBF) to 'hack' trailing Bears.

The RN invested almost totally in the future of ASW, by investing in towed array frigates, the Type 23s, with a very capable ASW helo on the back, the Merlin, to fix and destroy the subs located by the towed array. The Merlin was therefore designed almost entirely with ASW in mind, with ASuW as a very secondary role. Unfortunately the project ran very late, and by the time it arrived, ASW was not as prominent a task for the RN as it had been.

As for the number of Merlins being up graded, well how many Merlin platforms are there left, compared to when it was procured. I'm sure any recent copy of Janes will provide the answer. WEBF goes on about selling off Type 23s early, one is only 8 years old I believe, but he is right and you must realise that part of the 'hidden' associated costs of paying off such ships early is effectively the loss (in terms of it not being needed) of a £40+ million pound helo.

Feel free to disagree anyone, but hopefully in a more reasoned way than a Lynx vs Merlin p*ssing contest!

[southside]

so if we are selling the ships off to Chile...can we include a Merlin in with that package?

Oddly, it also lists Airborne Mine Counter Measures as a possible role.........as if the MOD is going to pay for that

besides, they wouldn't want to pinch that role from the Lynx

[comedyjock]

As always with Merlin it ends up in a p**sing contest against Lynx. They are 2 very different aircraft. As an airborne sensor the Merlin can't be beat (stand fast ASAC AEW) with the cost to run and crew involved. The Lynx is limited by its engines in hot weather (predominately where they are operating) however as a rapid reaction, easily deployable weapon asset it also can't be beat.
Put the 2 aircraft together in operations and I believe you have a very capable combination able to deal with most threats.

What you need is for IPT's to start talking o the Operators and buy useful kit that doe not take an age to procure. Whatever your opinion on SCMR is, I believe it is not the best aircraft we could spend the money on but will give the Navy a credible ASuW force. For what its worth NH-90 is proven and available to buy now.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Southside, how exactly does the Lynx do AMCM?

[NR DROOP]

WEBF , AMCM - Its not rocket science. I did it in the mighty Sea King Mk5 in GW 1 !

[southside]

BEADWINDOW from WEBF.......

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The point is, the USN has MCM dedicated helicopters. We do not.

[southside]

What you need is for IPT's to start talking o the Operators and buy useful kit that doe not take an age to procure. Whatever your opinion on SCMR is, I believe it is not the best aircraft we could spend the money on but will give the Navy a credible ASuW force. For what its worth NH-90 is proven and available to buy now.

and using the phrase of the magician....bollox..

NH90 is an unproven crock of poo. It is cumbersome, slow, underpowered and above all it is foreign.

F.Lynx will stun the world with its capibility, its speed, agiliity and its aggressive warfighting capibility. But above all, its British.

[southside]

The point is, the USN has MCM dedicated helicopters. We do not.

The point is..the USN waste their money on an aircarft with a single role whilst the Senior service use their assets wisely (apart from that crock of poo called a Merlin) and pool their capibilities. Our aircraft have many roles and are flown by professional, dedicated and extremely good aviators. Theirs are not.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Southside

You are an idiot. ENDEX.