Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
What many of the critics of the possible strike action forget is that we work in a capitalist society. It is up to me as a "worker" to get as much for my services as I can to support my family. It is up to the employer to get my services for as little as pay as possible.
A skill will produce a pay rate commensurate with that skill. If there are lots with the skill then pay will be low etc. It doesn't matter that people have pensions or a stable lifestyle there is still a rate for the job. PFI contracts tend to be awarded to the lowest bidder who is the lowest because he pays the lowest wages, as fixed costs are the same for all bidders.
In the past ex-service pilots have been willing to work for less because they want stability but this is changing as they realise their true worth to the company. We have very successfully driven up our wages in the N Sea by being aware of our true value and demanding to be paid as such. There is no box of experienced pilots to replace us and I would presume this is the case at Shawbury
If you think you are worth more then stick to your guns, especially if there is nobody to replace you. Managers may think it is they who earn their company the money but we know different
HF
A skill will produce a pay rate commensurate with that skill. If there are lots with the skill then pay will be low etc. It doesn't matter that people have pensions or a stable lifestyle there is still a rate for the job. PFI contracts tend to be awarded to the lowest bidder who is the lowest because he pays the lowest wages, as fixed costs are the same for all bidders.
In the past ex-service pilots have been willing to work for less because they want stability but this is changing as they realise their true worth to the company. We have very successfully driven up our wages in the N Sea by being aware of our true value and demanding to be paid as such. There is no box of experienced pilots to replace us and I would presume this is the case at Shawbury
If you think you are worth more then stick to your guns, especially if there is nobody to replace you. Managers may think it is they who earn their company the money but we know different
HF
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Originally Posted by swerve
Interesting again that the SERIOUSLY deranged "a good hedin" is firing from the hip - is it your life ambition to just irritate people by all you say and do - can't you just stick to doing that in your day time job as an airtrafficer.
Mighty funny you go on about ATPL and BALPA etc when you as a self confesed airtraficer are viewing and passing comment on a military AIRCREW forum - do us all a favour and irritate someone else who might be remotley interested in your bleeting.
Mighty funny you go on about ATPL and BALPA etc when you as a self confesed airtraficer are viewing and passing comment on a military AIRCREW forum - do us all a favour and irritate someone else who might be remotley interested in your bleeting.
Do I detect that Swerve does not like Air Tragic? Has he had a bad experience? Did he not get a good headin from one of our lovely ladies?
Maybe he only has a small chopper?
As for comments about MILITARY air traffickers playing on the MILITARY aircrew page I think it's better than being a bitter and twisted Civvy pilot bleating about how much money they should get paid! Maybe you should take your CIVILIAN bleatings over to the Airline pilots pages, after all you did leave the Military? Somehow I don't think they would be interested either!
Finally, you also said
Fact - most ATC types are failed aircrew
I have served on the ATC School for 6 years and in that time we have had ZERO chopped fast jet/multi eng reject aircrew come thru'. We have had 6 RN and 3 RAF chopped rotary. Of those RN studes 4 have failed and are now driving boats as Warfare Officers, 2 RAF failed and are now working in Admin and 1 is still in training at CATCS. The only Wings you will see in ATC these days is on the Duty Pilot!
So, as for me firing from the hip, maybe. At least at don't talk b*ll*cks!
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
The Turkey strikes again - "a good headin" - managed to strike a bit of a nerve then, truth hurts. But must put you right on one fact in your little insular world down there, who ever said I was not in the Military still - only you decided I was a bleating civie - even the still in's can have an opinion, even a balanced one!!! and suport a sensible campain, which you are obviously intent on trying to rubbish at any oportunity. Bit of advice - stick to what you can do, and I will stick to what I know about, then we can all have some peace - remember ATC are there to serve the aircrew, we know it hurts at times but that's how the pecking order is.
Good luck to the BALPA lads at Shawbury, just hope that one day when the long overdue posting to a real world airtrafficer does get prised out of his little hole he doesn't get a job with the CAA, cause he sounds perfect for their world. Love him!!!!:
Good luck to the BALPA lads at Shawbury, just hope that one day when the long overdue posting to a real world airtrafficer does get prised out of his little hole he doesn't get a job with the CAA, cause he sounds perfect for their world. Love him!!!!:
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
" ShyT, there are at least 2 Nigels who returned to Shy from the BA front line. One ex-A320 and one ex CRJ. For both it was time with family and quality of life that 'encouraged' their decision. You see there is more to life than money. In the case of the A320 chap, BA moving A320 from BHX to LHR and the associated nause of travelling at god forsaken hours meant that the salary drop was worth it. CRJ mate returned to uniform, albeit not the one he left! Jetset does not suit everybody all of the time.[/QUOTE]
I left the military for the same reasons. I was fortunate enough to gain immediate rotary employment overseas at a much higher salary. When I decided to return to UK I took a (very) large drop in salary but it was quality of life that counted. I still earn considerably more than these chaps, despite some of them being better QHIs than I ever was or could be. BTW, The BALPA salary figures I mentioned are for rotary pilots; they are nothing to do with the airlines.
Some folk on this site need to take of their military blinkers and look outside the frame a little. By trying to devalue the work that these chaps do, they also belittle themselves. The implication that these highly experienced pilots might be incapable of obtaining a CAA licence and doing another job for more return is ridiculous.
I ask the question again: If these chaps leave DHFS, (and some of them will) WHO is going to replace them?
I left the military for the same reasons. I was fortunate enough to gain immediate rotary employment overseas at a much higher salary. When I decided to return to UK I took a (very) large drop in salary but it was quality of life that counted. I still earn considerably more than these chaps, despite some of them being better QHIs than I ever was or could be. BTW, The BALPA salary figures I mentioned are for rotary pilots; they are nothing to do with the airlines.
Some folk on this site need to take of their military blinkers and look outside the frame a little. By trying to devalue the work that these chaps do, they also belittle themselves. The implication that these highly experienced pilots might be incapable of obtaining a CAA licence and doing another job for more return is ridiculous.
I ask the question again: If these chaps leave DHFS, (and some of them will) WHO is going to replace them?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
From BBC article: Balpa said current salary levels, between £29,000 and £40,000 a year, are around £7,000 less than RAF pilot trainers who are doing the same job.
Is that the price of secondary duties these days?!?
A sad state of affairs, but has been coming for a while with the current contract arrangements, methinks.
Uncle G
[Correction:- If all duties are equal, then I sit humbly corrected, and have every sympathy for the Civvie QHIs. But that's the cost of contractualisation - to be cheaper, something has to give; servicing, wages, management positions. Which is the obvious option there?)
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 14th Jan 2006 at 13:01.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
I could be wrong, but don't civvie QHIs have secondary duties on the squadrons??
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Secondary Duties? Yes, most do. Most fairly mundane, but all time consuming. The provision of the dozens of fields and clearings (and the annual bash for their owners) all organised bt a civvy.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Kim, you confused the serving motto with the non serving motto!! Fast change though, you must be a FJ pilot.....
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Must remember if I ever have to accept a job offer to ensure to strike if I'm not getting paid as much as work colleagues who actually work for a different employer.
Must also remember to feign surprise and total ignorance after I've accepted the job.
Must also remember to feign surprise and total ignorance after I've accepted the job.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
EESDL, an unworthy response. Some of the chaps concerned have been there 8 years, and much can change in that time. The guys have a genuine beef - did you know that the dispute hinges around last years pay settlement, due in April '05? The company seemingly bid low to get the contract in '97, but are still trousering wads of cash in various parts of the group whilst pleading poverty to their workforce. Standard business techniques obviously, but why slag off the pilots for wanting a reasonable rate for the job they do? Do you not seek the same from your employer, whether it be HMG or the commercial sector?
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Originally Posted by aytoo
Do you not seek the same from your employer, whether it be HMG or the commercial sector?
My options are: 1) Live with it, 2) Leave. Nobody is irreplaceable, and to think otherwise is an over inflated ego.
FWIW I agree with a previous post that geographical and family stability has a value that should not be discounted, ask anybody on an enforced *unaccompanied tour. I also agree that to offer peanuts; because a previously earned pension is in place is not cricket, but then nobody had to accept that one in the first place.
*Before anyone mentions OOA pay and SEPAL, that will never be enough to replace ones "LIFE"
Tightgit
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
It's ironic really. All these serving military personnel who don't like the idea of people striking for better T&C have joined the Forces in order to protect this country, its people and their hard won rights. Well, one of the hard won rights is the right to strike for better T&C. So thanks and keep up the good work
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Let's not forget that pay deals for the military are not made in isolation to the outside world. Retention bonuses, pay rises and flying pay are awarded as a direct result of the competition generated by employers outside the military, in part vying for the military trained pilot. It is a circle - pay the civilian more , the military will play catch up a while later. Then outside need to find a way to encourage the ex-military again. That circle is, of course, only part of the story. Employers who give minimal raises over a period of years are going to lose their people or have a strike on their hands. Either way, the playing field will never be level for all, but in a constant state of flux. Please - no point in sniping at each other, unless some of these posters are not the pilots they purport to be...
Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
aytoo,
you are right...I do not know the full facts as this is only a rumour network.
Question still remains.......
Why on earth would you continue working for an employer who obviously holds you in such low regard?
We are our own worst enemy.
It's an embarassing situation for everyone.
From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? If that's what your contract says, then fine, go get them folks.........I just hope that there's some of my BALPA funds left to fight my case if ever required.
Ex-mil pilot naivity strikes again me thinks.
you are right...I do not know the full facts as this is only a rumour network.
Question still remains.......
Why on earth would you continue working for an employer who obviously holds you in such low regard?
We are our own worst enemy.
It's an embarassing situation for everyone.
From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? If that's what your contract says, then fine, go get them folks.........I just hope that there's some of my BALPA funds left to fight my case if ever required.
Ex-mil pilot naivity strikes again me thinks.
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Re: Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
Originally Posted by EESDL
aytoo,
From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? .
From what I recall when DHFS was formed, pay parity was never on the cards from the start - so why do they think that it should be now? .
Whose turn is it to gloat now; I so hope that the military boys and girls get 5% this year.