Armed Forces Bill - Big Changes for RAF

[southside]

Its all very well having rules n Regs....BUT, has an Officer ever been arrested? (had to giggle at the "when the officer to be placed in arrest is engaged in a quarrel " bit...tee hee)

[Scud-U-Like]

Southside

Yes, many officers have been arrested by the service police. It just isn't well publicised.

Champers

As you might imagine, I have to disagree with you.

Service personnel serving overseas are only subject to UK criminal laws by virtue of the fact such laws are incorporated into the service discipline acts (eg AFA 1955). It is from the service discipline acts that service policemen abroad derive their powers of arrest.

The wording on warrant cards makes no mention regarding powers of arrest. The warrant card explanation you cite is legally dubious and has never been challenged in the courts. If it were so conclusive, why would the sponsors of the new Armed Forces Bill (who would have consulted, amongst others, service lawyers) have gone to the trouble of re-wording the arrest provisions, in order to give service policemen a power they already possess?

You may well have seen arrested officers, but how do you know they were not arrested under the ordinary criminal law or that the arresting policeman had not spoken to a provost officer beforehand? There is no requirement to 'call out' a provost officer in order to obtain his order to arrest. A telephone call would suffice.

[southside]

No they havent. In a service a small as this we hear of every Officer involved in a CM or SP. Certainly, over the past 5 years I could count on one hand the amount of Officers involved in C's M and doubt if they were arrested.

[Scud-U-Like]

Assuming you are aware of every CM and SP in the armed forces, I think you are assuming every arrest results in a summary proceeding or trial. It doesn't.

[southside]

NO but does every CM or ST stem from an arrest?

Every C's M is publicised and open to the public with the result being made available to those who are interested. So does every trial stem from an Arrest?

[tonkatechie]

Service personnel serving overseas are only subject to UK criminal laws by virtue of the fact such laws are incorporated into the service discipline acts (eg AFA 1955).

Or because we are bound by UK Civil law (which has primacy?) when representing HM Government overseas. Just to add to the confusion, what about those situations where personnel are serving in places where the local law is stricter than the UK law (e.g. blood alcohol limits for driving in Germany). How would this affect the situation? In order to keep in with the thread, does this sort of thing apply to your flying regs, and what happens if you 'accidentally' break them?

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I may be entirely wrong (quite often am) but I wonder if the armed forces are being further lined up for the 'blame culture'.

In my industry the Financial Services Act was introduced - it was claimed - to protect the consumer. As far as I can see, however, its main purpose is to create a paper trail so that, if things go TU, they can always find someone to blame instead of sorting the problem.

I was fortunate enough to visit Larkhill a couple of years ago and all I could see were Health and Safety notices everywhere. Is this now the thin end of the wedge for the RAF? Do hope I'm wrong

[Scud-U-Like]

Southside

I think you're tying yourself in knots.

You asked, "Has an Officer ever been arrested?"

I replied, "Yes, many officers have been arrested"

You didn't qualify 'ever', so I didn't qualify 'many'.

Happy?

tonkatechie

You cannot commit an offence contrary to UK criminal law, outside the UK, unless an offence has extra-territorial provisions. In other words, the offence makes it a crime for a UK citizen to do some act overseas. Such offences are few, but include genocide, torture and some sexual offences relating to children overseas.

Save for these exceptions, a British citizen (including a member of the armed forces) who is outside the UK, cannot commit a criminal offence contrary to the criminal laws of the UK. There is no 'primacy'. The law does not apply. Simple as that.

All members of the armed forces are, however, subject to the service discipline acts and it is into these acts that most English (though not Scottish or NI) criminal offences are incorporated.

Section 70 of the Air Force Act (the other two services have similar provisions) makes it an air-force offence to commit any civil offence. 'Civil offence' means any act or omission punishable by the law of England, or which, if committed in England, would be punishable under that law.

While serving overseas, you are bound by the criminal laws of the country you are visiting, unless the law of that country, your country or international law, provides otherwise (eg under visiting forces laws). The relative strictness of the laws of the country you are visiting and UK service law, is immaterial.

If, as the service pilot of a UK military aircraft, you breach a flying regulation and such a breach amounts to an offence, contrary to service law or the law of the country you are visiting (but see the above paragraph), you commit an offence.

[Blacksheep]

I was Orderly Sergeant when an RAF Police Corporal brought in a drunken officer who he had discovered lying face down on the grass outside the WRAF block. Technically the said Flight Lieutenant was under arrest, though he was not inclined to challenge the Corporal's or my own authority to detain him. As per SOP for drunks, we installed him safely in a cell, minus belt, shoelaces etc. and informed the Orderly Officer, who then informed the Station Commander. As instructed by the CO, we kept the said drunken officer overnight in the guardroom and released him to the CO on his way in the following morning. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall of the CO's office during the subsequent "interview" but we never heard any more about it. 'High Spirits' one supposes, but I don't think it did anything to advance his career...