RAF Officer Faces Jail - Refuses to Go To Iraq
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I myself think that the war was illegal. However, I have done many stints in Iraq and will continue to go when I am told to do so. I joined a service that does as it is told despite your own personal opinion - right or wrong.
I think that the verdict was satisfactory and fingered someone who was swinging the lead (only my opinion of course). I haven't heard of many cases of army medics refusing to deploy (out on patrol, repairing their mates whilst under fire). Why should a person who includes a stint in Quatar as one of their gulf tours get away with not wanting to go again get away with it?
I am prepared to get verbally shot down in flames of course
LCP
I think that the verdict was satisfactory and fingered someone who was swinging the lead (only my opinion of course). I haven't heard of many cases of army medics refusing to deploy (out on patrol, repairing their mates whilst under fire). Why should a person who includes a stint in Quatar as one of their gulf tours get away with not wanting to go again get away with it?
I am prepared to get verbally shot down in flames of course
LCP
Last edited by Lara crofts pants; 14th Apr 2006 at 00:37.
Has he actually been to Iraq? I know he wears the Telic medal but heard he had only been to Qatar or somewhere else that WASN'T Iraq.
I agree that this was the correct outcome - it sends out a very clear message to everyone else, though I doubt he will see the inside of any cell (that £20,000 fine has got to hurt even a doctor though!).
For an (apparently) intelligent person he does not seem to have dealt with the whole situation very well. I would have thought that using your skills to save the lives of your fellow servicemen (and quite probably the 'enemy' also) would take priority over an individuals petty political objections.
And I agree, that SS style leather jacket should have been worth 8 months alone!
I agree that this was the correct outcome - it sends out a very clear message to everyone else, though I doubt he will see the inside of any cell (that £20,000 fine has got to hurt even a doctor though!).
For an (apparently) intelligent person he does not seem to have dealt with the whole situation very well. I would have thought that using your skills to save the lives of your fellow servicemen (and quite probably the 'enemy' also) would take priority over an individuals petty political objections.
And I agree, that SS style leather jacket should have been worth 8 months alone!
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I also hear that he has been discharged from the service. Good. We who serve have no time for someone who tries to pull the wool over our eyes by claiming that they have a moral objection to carrying out their duty simply because they do not want to.
Good riddance
Good riddance
I mean 4 X 3 months in a space of 18 months under quite a lot of pressure.
You take shiny coin....you takes what comes with it.
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SASless - I agree, he has acted without honour. By "integrity not in question", I meant that he wasn't charged with a "dishonesty" offence, such as theft, fraud, stating a falsehood etc. Yes, you are right, and I agree, his "integrity" in one sense has been called into question. But that's the point of corrective training. To firmly point out the error of their ways, and the obedience expected of members of the armed forces.
PPrune Radar - He HAS committed civil offences. The Airforce Act 1955 is an Act of Parliament. However, I agree with the sentiment of your post, nail him to the parade square in Colchester. Shepton Mallet would have been better. Abu Ghraib a couple of years ago better still.
Question - is Leavenworth a straightforward detention prison, (23hrs a day in cells etc), a punishment place (4hrs drill, 4hrs PT), or a corrective training place (like MCTC)?
PPrune Radar - He HAS committed civil offences. The Airforce Act 1955 is an Act of Parliament. However, I agree with the sentiment of your post, nail him to the parade square in Colchester. Shepton Mallet would have been better. Abu Ghraib a couple of years ago better still.
Question - is Leavenworth a straightforward detention prison, (23hrs a day in cells etc), a punishment place (4hrs drill, 4hrs PT), or a corrective training place (like MCTC)?
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It seems the reason for his being sent to a civilian prison and not MCTC is simply because his sentence includes discharge from the service. He was sent to Colchester immediately after sentencing, as his discharge does not take effect until the sentence is confirmed.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Independent:
The Armed Forces Bill - now going through Parliament - will impose harsh penalties, including life imprisonment, on soldiers who refuse to take part in military occupations. A little-known section introduces a new tougher definition of desertion so that soldiers who intend to avoid serving in a "military occupation of a foreign country or territory" can be imprisoned for life...
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On a similar theme; what happened with the enquiry into all the other battle dodgers during the main war? There were a huge number of cases for people being sent home for compassionate, minor injuries etc who never went back to finish their duty.
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The Armed Forces Bill - now going through Parliament - will impose harsh penalties, including life imprisonment, on soldiers who refuse to take part in military occupations. A little-known section introduces a new tougher definition of desertion so that soldiers who intend to avoid serving in a "military occupation of a foreign country or territory" can be imprisoned for life...
There are 3 cases to my knowledge of personnel explicitly refusing to serve - in one way or another - in Iraq. Most of those who opposed the war either suppressed their doubts to continue serving or applied for PVR and got out. I am not sure what current the desertion rate is, or the absent without leave rate.
So why change the law? Any sentence imposed is likely to be disproportionate and simply overturned on appeal by higher authority. This stinks of political interference and an attempt to try and dodge future controversy.
(that £20,000 fine has got to hurt even a doctor though!).
Please don't buy it if he does!
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Though the outcome was never in doubt, I suspect that the obtuseness of the JA in this case in refusing permission for defence defence witnesses will allow plenty of grounds for appeal.
Invading a country and installing a puppet government, then using an 'invitation' from those puppets to remain as a defence for the legality of the operation would be no different to the Third Reich using their relationship with Quisling as a justification for the invasion and occupation of Norway.
It appears MK-S got the JA's goat; hardly surprising since MK-S comes across as an intelligent and thoughtful man and the JAG's Dept is hardly staffed by the intellectual giants of the UK legal profession.
If a public subscription fund to pay the fine is opened, I'll gladly send a donation. If MK-S is bright enough to spend his porridge-time in literary pursuit, I imagine the return on his few months could well be quite lucrative.
Invading a country and installing a puppet government, then using an 'invitation' from those puppets to remain as a defence for the legality of the operation would be no different to the Third Reich using their relationship with Quisling as a justification for the invasion and occupation of Norway.
It appears MK-S got the JA's goat; hardly surprising since MK-S comes across as an intelligent and thoughtful man and the JAG's Dept is hardly staffed by the intellectual giants of the UK legal profession.
If a public subscription fund to pay the fine is opened, I'll gladly send a donation. If MK-S is bright enough to spend his porridge-time in literary pursuit, I imagine the return on his few months could well be quite lucrative.
I'm sure that many would agree with you, An T. But is an appeal actually possible at this stage?
Some of this was clearly pour encourager les autres....
Unfortunately he disobeyed lawful orders to attend pre-deployment training. The option of 'Conscienscious Objection' would have been far more prudent.
Yes, I know of several folk who have left the RAF over Bliar's Iraq adventurism - or are in the process of doing so. Most left without making such a comment....until they were out.
The latest Armed Forces Bill sounds like a pretty desperate attempt, if those reports are correct.
As for the latest crisis in Iran, it's difficult to know who to believe. One hopes that Man of Straw can have some moderating influence on the tone of comments made by that American woman he's been out and about the world with recently.
Some of this was clearly pour encourager les autres....
Unfortunately he disobeyed lawful orders to attend pre-deployment training. The option of 'Conscienscious Objection' would have been far more prudent.
Yes, I know of several folk who have left the RAF over Bliar's Iraq adventurism - or are in the process of doing so. Most left without making such a comment....until they were out.
The latest Armed Forces Bill sounds like a pretty desperate attempt, if those reports are correct.
As for the latest crisis in Iran, it's difficult to know who to believe. One hopes that Man of Straw can have some moderating influence on the tone of comments made by that American woman he's been out and about the world with recently.
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Hi Beags
Conscientious Objection is an objection to war in toto, MK-S is not a conscientious objector, he merely felt he had a duty to consider the legality of his orders regarding this particular unlawful war.
Personally, I feel he would have been better attending the specified training to reduce the number of orders in question.
Conscientious Objection is an objection to war in toto, MK-S is not a conscientious objector, he merely felt he had a duty to consider the legality of his orders regarding this particular unlawful war.
Personally, I feel he would have been better attending the specified training to reduce the number of orders in question.
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Originally Posted by Training Risky
What are the odds that he writes a cash-in book when he is released and recoups a bit, if not all, of the money he was fined?!
Please don't buy it if he does!
Please don't buy it if he does!
Roadster,
With a sentence of only 8 months...instead of Leavenworth DB, probably the convict would be sent to a Brig or Stockade for service of his time. The old days of those places being "disciplinary barracks" in the true sense are over. Control is still far more than in non-military prisons but no where like the days of the Marine run Red Line Brig. In all liklihood the good doctor in our system would find himself doing a lot of reading, accomplishing janitorial chores, and participating on working parties under supervision of an armed guard. Also in our system he would revert to the lowest rank...in his case...Airman and forfeit all pay, allowances, pension, and receive a Dishonorable Discharge. Also....he would probably only have to do as little as 1/3 of his sentence if he were a good boy and did not run afoul of the system by some form of misconduct.
With a sentence of only 8 months...instead of Leavenworth DB, probably the convict would be sent to a Brig or Stockade for service of his time. The old days of those places being "disciplinary barracks" in the true sense are over. Control is still far more than in non-military prisons but no where like the days of the Marine run Red Line Brig. In all liklihood the good doctor in our system would find himself doing a lot of reading, accomplishing janitorial chores, and participating on working parties under supervision of an armed guard. Also in our system he would revert to the lowest rank...in his case...Airman and forfeit all pay, allowances, pension, and receive a Dishonorable Discharge. Also....he would probably only have to do as little as 1/3 of his sentence if he were a good boy and did not run afoul of the system by some form of misconduct.
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Originally Posted by Scud-U-Like
It seems the reason for his being sent to a civilian prison and not MCTC is simply because his sentence includes discharge from the service. He was sent to Colchester immediately after sentencing, as his discharge does not take effect until the sentence is confirmed.
Not strictly true. Individuals can be sentenced to be discharged and still go to MCTC. In fact, for those facing discharge MCTC can offer some very good ressetlement training. It is important to understand that, for some offences, a Court Martial has different options to deny an individual his liberty. Either:
Detention - ie MCTC. Not a bad facility, compared to HM Prisons (no mass drug problem, male rape - liklehood of leaving with the added benefit of a new contagious desease). Far lower chance of reoffending and some first-class military and/or resetlement training. I once had a FS who had been an SUS and then returned many years later on the other side as a member of staff. Only downside is that remisiion is only at about 33%
Imprisonment - ie HM Prisons. Good side is that remission tends to be 50%. As for the not so good points - see above (oh Doctor please come and have a look at this large swelling!)
Of course in this case the likelihood of reoffending is going to be nil! It always used to be the case that officers always were sentenced to imprisonment only going to MCTC to await confirmation of sentence.Imprisonment - ie HM Prisons. Good side is that remission tends to be 50%. As for the not so good points - see above (oh Doctor please come and have a look at this large swelling!)
Those in this forum linking this case to the legality or otherwise of the war and subsequent occupation should refresh their understanding of the laws of arm conflict not rely on ill-informed media comment. There is a difference in the laws of armed conflict between the legality of a war (Jus ad belllum)and the legal conduct of a war (Jus in bello). The first is the realms of the leaders of a nation the second is the realms of the military. See my earlier posts - the military can conduct an illegal war legally (ie within the laws of armed conflict) without fear of prosecution. This is set and was reinforced by Nurenburg (ir the Nuremburg Principles do not apply here). In Nurenburg it was only the leaders of Germany who were tried on the legality of the war. The remainder were tried for breaches of the rules of war - the precedent is that if you are given an illegal order (ie do somethingthat is contrary to the rules of war) then you are not to carry it out. As the JA confirmed, the orders given in this case were legal.
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Served in Iraq during an earlier campaign.
This guy had to go down - no question. The sentence is appropriate as it sets the tone for any other schmuck who thinks he's above obeying a lawful order.
What's disproportionate is the piddly sentences handed out to the scumbags for all the civvy crime - perpetual perps are laughing in the face of the judge.
Bring back conscription, maybe it'll raise the bar of our yoof.
This guy had to go down - no question. The sentence is appropriate as it sets the tone for any other schmuck who thinks he's above obeying a lawful order.
What's disproportionate is the piddly sentences handed out to the scumbags for all the civvy crime - perpetual perps are laughing in the face of the judge.
Bring back conscription, maybe it'll raise the bar of our yoof.
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The sentence is a complete and utter waste of the taxpayers money. The case should never have come to CM . The Doctor clearly had concerns over the reasoning for him being sent to Iraq for another time. His defence to be
disallowed clearly indicates either an unwillingness to be able to examine the reasoning for the venture or the real possibility that the years of leaks from Tony's government have clearly shown the decision to be decided no matter
what U.N resolution was passed or not to go to war anyway.
As for RAFLOO - exactly what aggression are we fighting in the Middle East sandpit ? If I recall rightly more British citizens have been killed in Zimbabwe by Mugabe than were ever killed by Saddam .
disallowed clearly indicates either an unwillingness to be able to examine the reasoning for the venture or the real possibility that the years of leaks from Tony's government have clearly shown the decision to be decided no matter
what U.N resolution was passed or not to go to war anyway.
As for RAFLOO - exactly what aggression are we fighting in the Middle East sandpit ? If I recall rightly more British citizens have been killed in Zimbabwe by Mugabe than were ever killed by Saddam .
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RAFLOO
I think you're a bigoted prat - unless your comments are a wind up. I guess you're serious though, what do YOU do, stack blankets?
Just rest assured my friend - what goes around comes around. Be careful what you wish on others who are not without courage, they might be wrong, but they undeniably have courage.
I think you're a bigoted prat - unless your comments are a wind up. I guess you're serious though, what do YOU do, stack blankets?
Just rest assured my friend - what goes around comes around. Be careful what you wish on others who are not without courage, they might be wrong, but they undeniably have courage.