British Tanks Attacked in Basra
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Stacker,
It matters not who or what those two young men were, they were servicemen who, at the time, were befuddled with the crap ROE and the ensuing implications of discharging their weapons and lost their lives in the most appaling circumstances.
May I suggest you "stroke for Britain" , are a tosser of the highest order and doubt you have ever been in harms way of any description
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
It matters not who or what those two young men were, they were servicemen who, at the time, were befuddled with the crap ROE and the ensuing implications of discharging their weapons and lost their lives in the most appaling circumstances.
May I suggest you "stroke for Britain" , are a tosser of the highest order and doubt you have ever been in harms way of any description
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Just the mention of that incident in NI made my blood run cold. Every time I see the footage I wonder how and why every single one of the bastards whose faces can be seen were not imprisoned (or, and god help me for saying this) simply quietly taken out and beaten (or even slotted). And it makes me wonder how, with Pleasant Pumas, Finch Gazelles or Chancellor Lynxes (one was definitely up and watching) they didn't get evidence to prosecute those who finally executed the Squaddies, after they'd been beaten and 'interrogated'.
I was shocked to see the Warrior apparently unable to escape, and profoundly worried that the crew couldn't simply sit it out, or spray the surrounding crowd with some well aimed fire 'over their heads'. The sight of one lad leaping down in a hail of rocks was appalling, and the stills of chaps bailing out actually on fire was even worse. Thank God that the reports indicate that all got away with it with only minor injuries.
We went to war for the wrong reasons (but now we're there, running away isn't an option) and nothing ever excuses beating up prisoners in custody, but when the ROE prevent soldiers 'in contact' from protecting themselves, and when the British Army and local Police are on opposite sides, something is very badly wrong.
I was shocked to see the Warrior apparently unable to escape, and profoundly worried that the crew couldn't simply sit it out, or spray the surrounding crowd with some well aimed fire 'over their heads'. The sight of one lad leaping down in a hail of rocks was appalling, and the stills of chaps bailing out actually on fire was even worse. Thank God that the reports indicate that all got away with it with only minor injuries.
We went to war for the wrong reasons (but now we're there, running away isn't an option) and nothing ever excuses beating up prisoners in custody, but when the ROE prevent soldiers 'in contact' from protecting themselves, and when the British Army and local Police are on opposite sides, something is very badly wrong.
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Excuse me MR ABIW, I wasn't playing down the incident or accusing the Signallers of escalating it so don't get all shirty with me.
Their 'panic' was a failure of the system.
A failure in intelligence (or should I say lack of).
A failure in briefing, confusion with 'actions on'.
A failure in dissemination of information, most specifically RoE.
As for,
and
Why don't you both go forth and multiply. You don't know me or where I have been during my service in both the RGJ's and the RAF.
I made a comment based on documented facts, you picked the first bit of bollocks to drip into the front of your grey matter.
Their 'panic' was a failure of the system.
A failure in intelligence (or should I say lack of).
A failure in briefing, confusion with 'actions on'.
A failure in dissemination of information, most specifically RoE.
As for,
....he said from the warm fluffy comfort of a desk.
and doubt you have ever been in harms way of any description
I made a comment based on documented facts, you picked the first bit of bollocks to drip into the front of your grey matter.
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I love it when people get all defensive!
Blankets back into cots please, the main issue here is that once again, the Brits showed the US Army how to do business.
The US would have had Apaches overhead, A10s in a CAS stack, Bradleys left right and centre and (this is based on previous events) may well have shot into the crowd from the start.
Better to get out, assess what has just happened before getting back in there and tw@ting whoever was responsible with a measured response i.e. several tanks through a wall!!
Blankets back into cots please, the main issue here is that once again, the Brits showed the US Army how to do business.
The US would have had Apaches overhead, A10s in a CAS stack, Bradleys left right and centre and (this is based on previous events) may well have shot into the crowd from the start.
Better to get out, assess what has just happened before getting back in there and tw@ting whoever was responsible with a measured response i.e. several tanks through a wall!!
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I agree, it does seem to have been a well thought out response.
Not much you can do against a couple of tanks smashing through your front door really.
I don't reckon JSUB MT would have been too happy with the dents on 'their' vehicles though.
PS, To other Pprune users. I must apologise for biting to such an obvious troll earlier and my subsequent angered response. Its wasn't I believe in keeping with the usual behaviour displayed on this forum and as such I'll try to ignore obvious inflammatory comments from folk who are bereft of the fact in future.
Not much you can do against a couple of tanks smashing through your front door really.
I don't reckon JSUB MT would have been too happy with the dents on 'their' vehicles though.
PS, To other Pprune users. I must apologise for biting to such an obvious troll earlier and my subsequent angered response. Its wasn't I believe in keeping with the usual behaviour displayed on this forum and as such I'll try to ignore obvious inflammatory comments from folk who are bereft of the fact in future.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 20th Sep 2005 at 06:20.
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Wo wo wo 'Agent747'.
No one knows the full details of the event yet, only hearsay and conjecture. Perhaps it'd be better to wait for the dust to settle and the full facts come out (if they do) before branding members of the British Army racists for carrying out actions which they are being ordered to do.
For all we know the Iraqi Policeman that was shot causing this whole incident was 'moonlighting' for terrorist organisations, something that isn't exactly unheard of in Iraq at the mo.
From the 'information' that seems to be trickling through the news services it appears the two undercover serviceman were rescued from a private residence rather than a police station as initially suspected and it was believed they were in the process of being handed over to local militia. If this was the case then the actions of the Army were well justified.
But as I say, who really knows and will we ever know the truth, from both sides?
No one knows the full details of the event yet, only hearsay and conjecture. Perhaps it'd be better to wait for the dust to settle and the full facts come out (if they do) before branding members of the British Army racists for carrying out actions which they are being ordered to do.
For all we know the Iraqi Policeman that was shot causing this whole incident was 'moonlighting' for terrorist organisations, something that isn't exactly unheard of in Iraq at the mo.
From the 'information' that seems to be trickling through the news services it appears the two undercover serviceman were rescued from a private residence rather than a police station as initially suspected and it was believed they were in the process of being handed over to local militia. If this was the case then the actions of the Army were well justified.
But as I say, who really knows and will we ever know the truth, from both sides?
BBC news now reporting the MOD are saying that the local commander on the ground negotiated to take our chaps into custody and they turned up to take them back, then some militants (read angry locals) turned up and tried to snatch them. In the confusion some poor unfortunate tankie knocked down a wall and let loose Basra's gangsters.....
And no I'm not a white supremecist or similar! But not overly happy about the thought of two of our guys being in an iraqi jail with an angry mob outside. If they've done wrong, fine, give them a fair trial!
And no I'm not a white supremecist or similar! But not overly happy about the thought of two of our guys being in an iraqi jail with an angry mob outside. If they've done wrong, fine, give them a fair trial!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC: UK soldiers 'freed from militia'
Two British soldiers freed after tanks broke into a Basra prison were being held by Shia militiamen, the Ministry of Defence said.
The MoD said the men had been found at a nearby house after troops broke into the city's prison to look for them.......
An MoD spokesman said: "Two British soldiers were detained and taken to an Iraqi police station. We then started negotiating with the Iraqi authorities for their release. "We understand that the authorities ordered their release. Unfortunately they weren't released and we became concerned for their safety and as a result a Warrior infantry fighting vehicle broke down the perimeter wall in one place.
"Our guys went in there and searched it from top to bottom in order to go and recover our two soldiers who had been detained. "They weren't there unfortunately but we did obtain intelligence that pointed to where they were. We then launched another operation to recover them, from a house in Basra."......
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No doubt to be held as hostages in exchange for Sheikh Ahmed al-Fartusi.
Two British soldiers freed after tanks broke into a Basra prison were being held by Shia militiamen, the Ministry of Defence said.
The MoD said the men had been found at a nearby house after troops broke into the city's prison to look for them.......
An MoD spokesman said: "Two British soldiers were detained and taken to an Iraqi police station. We then started negotiating with the Iraqi authorities for their release. "We understand that the authorities ordered their release. Unfortunately they weren't released and we became concerned for their safety and as a result a Warrior infantry fighting vehicle broke down the perimeter wall in one place.
"Our guys went in there and searched it from top to bottom in order to go and recover our two soldiers who had been detained. "They weren't there unfortunately but we did obtain intelligence that pointed to where they were. We then launched another operation to recover them, from a house in Basra."......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No doubt to be held as hostages in exchange for Sheikh Ahmed al-Fartusi.
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Well what a nice tale to wake up to! Let us hope it stirs the minds (Shias) of those who we have TWICE saved from a fate worse than death.
I also hope that 'WE' get to grips with those people who think that we are there just as fire and stone fodder.
I also hope that 'WE' get to grips with those people who think that we are there just as fire and stone fodder.
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Once again, typical holywood movie white supremist racist bufffoonary. Once again the notion that the white man is far more important than the fecking sand nigg*r of an Iraqi! You pricks make me want to puke. The damn asses that fired at the police men deserve to be tried by the laws of the country. They deserve it. My fellow countrymen or not, they are pricks of the highest order and there is nothing remotely moral or heroic about their job, stealing and securing oil is not moral and if you insist on staying there then do not moan when people attack you instead!
It's a desparate situation all round. The reformed Iraqi police are infiltrated by militant Shias so who's side are we actually on? I think that, once again, our troops on the ground showed heroic restraint and a cool, measured response. They are in a **** storm not of their making and they seem to be handling themselves with admirable courage and composure. Thank God our guys were rescued before the mob or the militia got to them.
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i dont think any of the true facts will come out, but the intelligent amongst us will know that the two guys being back safe on base is far better than being in the hands of local militia.... there is no argument about that..
It is truly sickening to see our guys in that situation and the whole country seems to be on a downhill slide - thats my opinion from being there, and not from the media.
Bush and Bliar have alot to answer for, and when they both retire(hopefully soon) on their massive pensions and the gravy trains they will be on, our guys will still be there.
Either we back them to use their judgment to protect themselves(when surrounded by angry mobs pelting them with petrol bombs) or we pull them out.
(ABIW fully agree with you mate.)
It is truly sickening to see our guys in that situation and the whole country seems to be on a downhill slide - thats my opinion from being there, and not from the media.
Bush and Bliar have alot to answer for, and when they both retire(hopefully soon) on their massive pensions and the gravy trains they will be on, our guys will still be there.
Either we back them to use their judgment to protect themselves(when surrounded by angry mobs pelting them with petrol bombs) or we pull them out.
(ABIW fully agree with you mate.)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC:
Brigadier John Lorimer said it was of "deep concern" the men detained by police ended up held by Shia militia.....
In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.
"I had good reason to believe that the lives of the soldiers were at risk and troops were sent to the area of Basra near the police station to help ensure their safety by providing a cordon," Brig Lorimer said. "As shown on television these troops were attacked with firebombs and rockets by a violent and determined crowd."
"Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements."
After troops broke into the police station to confirm the men were not there, they staged a rescue from a house in Basra, said the commanding officer of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Basra.
"I'm delighted that the two British soldiers are back with British forces and are in good health," Brig Lorimer said. But he added: "It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should then end up being held by the militia. This is unacceptable."
BBC Defence Correspondent Paul Wood said local police revealed the whereabouts of the two men after the station was stormed.
"At the point of a 30mm cannon - no shots were fired - but at the point of this cannon, the Iraqi police gave away the location of where the two British soldiers had been taken," he said.....
The BBC's Paul Wood said none of Basra's 20,000 police officers had helped the UK troops "partly because of reticence by their commanders, partly because, I am afraid, they have been infiltrated by these militants".
He added: "Now we are in the situation where presumably revenge will be sought by relatives of the dead Iraqis - and our allies in the police, I think there has been a complete breakdown of trust and it's going to be very difficult for British troops to call on them.".....
Brigadier John Lorimer said it was of "deep concern" the men detained by police ended up held by Shia militia.....
In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.
"I had good reason to believe that the lives of the soldiers were at risk and troops were sent to the area of Basra near the police station to help ensure their safety by providing a cordon," Brig Lorimer said. "As shown on television these troops were attacked with firebombs and rockets by a violent and determined crowd."
"Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements."
After troops broke into the police station to confirm the men were not there, they staged a rescue from a house in Basra, said the commanding officer of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Basra.
"I'm delighted that the two British soldiers are back with British forces and are in good health," Brig Lorimer said. But he added: "It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should then end up being held by the militia. This is unacceptable."
BBC Defence Correspondent Paul Wood said local police revealed the whereabouts of the two men after the station was stormed.
"At the point of a 30mm cannon - no shots were fired - but at the point of this cannon, the Iraqi police gave away the location of where the two British soldiers had been taken," he said.....
The BBC's Paul Wood said none of Basra's 20,000 police officers had helped the UK troops "partly because of reticence by their commanders, partly because, I am afraid, they have been infiltrated by these militants".
He added: "Now we are in the situation where presumably revenge will be sought by relatives of the dead Iraqis - and our allies in the police, I think there has been a complete breakdown of trust and it's going to be very difficult for British troops to call on them.".....
Last edited by ORAC; 20th Sep 2005 at 09:40.
Funny how speaking through a gun barrel can break down language barriers!
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All I say is thank goodness they got the 2 away from where they were being held. I would rather let 150 criminals break free from prison, (alleged reports), than see the consequences of not getting them back immediately.
I think we all know what footage would have shortly appeared on Al Jazeera.
The question is, 'Where does this now leave us?'
SS
I think we all know what footage would have shortly appeared on Al Jazeera.
The question is, 'Where does this now leave us?'
SS
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Stacker
It's always like that on here these days mate. Some people just don't like opposing views and reply with personal remarks. Reasoned argument, which once this forum was famed for, appears to be dead. So I have learnt that it is best not to post on such emotional threads.
But I think most of us agree, it is time for all our troops in this theatre of operations to come home.
It's always like that on here these days mate. Some people just don't like opposing views and reply with personal remarks. Reasoned argument, which once this forum was famed for, appears to be dead. So I have learnt that it is best not to post on such emotional threads.
But I think most of us agree, it is time for all our troops in this theatre of operations to come home.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The police are definitely not to be trusted.
The Times - 20th Sept: Second journalist probing Basra police killed
An Iraqi journalist investigating the infiltration of Basra's police force by extremists from the Shia militia was abducted and killed by masked men who identified themselves as police. Fakher Haider, a 38-year-old Shia Muslim reporter covering Basra for The New York Times, was found dead with his hands bound and a bag over his head in a deserted area on the city’s outskirts yesterday morning.
On Sunday, Haider filed reports about the angry demonstrations that followed the arrest by British forces of two high-ranking members of the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to the hardline Shia cleric Moktada al-Sadr. Shortly after midnight, two cars - one unmarked, the other a police car - were driven up to his apartment building. Three men, carrying AK-47 assault rifles, ransacked the flat removing mobile phones and videotapes. Haider, a father with three children aged 5, 7and 9, told his wife not to worry as he was led outside and bundled into one of the waiting vehicles. Hours later, she was called to identify his body at the city morgue. He appeared to have been shot more than once in the head. His back was bruised, suggesting he had been beaten.
In recent months, Haider had confided to friends that he was worried about the increasingly violent atmosphere in Basra. In July, gunmen in a pick-up truck chased his car and fired at him - he escaped after driving off-road and firing his pistol into the air, he told a friend.
Many of Haider's most recent photographs, showing British military vehicles targeted in Basra, had been published on the ironically-titled They Love Us Really website which highlights the difficult relationship between locals and the coalition forces. Among the images is a chilling picture of US consulate workers loading the body of Steven Vincent, a freelance journalist attached to the New York Times who was executed in Basra last month, into the back of an ambulance.
Vincent, too, had been inquiring into the extent to which the police force in Basra had become a tool of Shia extremists. Their deaths have taken on an enhanced political significance with the breakdown of relations between the local police force and British troops based in the city following yesterday's prison ram-raid......
The Times - 20th Sept: Second journalist probing Basra police killed
An Iraqi journalist investigating the infiltration of Basra's police force by extremists from the Shia militia was abducted and killed by masked men who identified themselves as police. Fakher Haider, a 38-year-old Shia Muslim reporter covering Basra for The New York Times, was found dead with his hands bound and a bag over his head in a deserted area on the city’s outskirts yesterday morning.
On Sunday, Haider filed reports about the angry demonstrations that followed the arrest by British forces of two high-ranking members of the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to the hardline Shia cleric Moktada al-Sadr. Shortly after midnight, two cars - one unmarked, the other a police car - were driven up to his apartment building. Three men, carrying AK-47 assault rifles, ransacked the flat removing mobile phones and videotapes. Haider, a father with three children aged 5, 7and 9, told his wife not to worry as he was led outside and bundled into one of the waiting vehicles. Hours later, she was called to identify his body at the city morgue. He appeared to have been shot more than once in the head. His back was bruised, suggesting he had been beaten.
In recent months, Haider had confided to friends that he was worried about the increasingly violent atmosphere in Basra. In July, gunmen in a pick-up truck chased his car and fired at him - he escaped after driving off-road and firing his pistol into the air, he told a friend.
Many of Haider's most recent photographs, showing British military vehicles targeted in Basra, had been published on the ironically-titled They Love Us Really website which highlights the difficult relationship between locals and the coalition forces. Among the images is a chilling picture of US consulate workers loading the body of Steven Vincent, a freelance journalist attached to the New York Times who was executed in Basra last month, into the back of an ambulance.
Vincent, too, had been inquiring into the extent to which the police force in Basra had become a tool of Shia extremists. Their deaths have taken on an enhanced political significance with the breakdown of relations between the local police force and British troops based in the city following yesterday's prison ram-raid......
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Blankets back into cots please, the main issue here is that once again, the Brits showed the US Army how to do business.
I do wonder, if the captives had been US soldiers and the same rescue performed by the US Army, whether the posts here on PPrune would have been so congratulatory. I suspect, instead, the posts would have said that Brit soldiers never would have been captured, that UK forces would have respected the authority of the Iraqi judicial system, etc.
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Apologies OFBSLF,
just pointing out that the UK forces seem to show more restraint than the US who never seem to opt for the 'hearts and minds' side of warfare!
No offence intended however, I will say that the US pulled us into this situation, we've done our bit, lets get out and leave the worlds super power to it. I'm serving in the RAF at the moment and I'm very proud of the service along with the Army and RN however, Iraq is bleeding us dry of funding and quite frankly, I suspect that most of us have had enough.
just pointing out that the UK forces seem to show more restraint than the US who never seem to opt for the 'hearts and minds' side of warfare!
No offence intended however, I will say that the US pulled us into this situation, we've done our bit, lets get out and leave the worlds super power to it. I'm serving in the RAF at the moment and I'm very proud of the service along with the Army and RN however, Iraq is bleeding us dry of funding and quite frankly, I suspect that most of us have had enough.