Redress or not redress...?
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Redress or not redress...?
At what stage/level of complaint would you consider redress..?
If your career had been seriously hampered/ended by managerial incompetance ...or decisions which caused the ability of others around you to perform their duties to there fullest.
Im sitting here writing this as once again the single airframe available today flys overhead....this could be linked to another thread...
5d2d
If your career had been seriously hampered/ended by managerial incompetance ...or decisions which caused the ability of others around you to perform their duties to there fullest.
Im sitting here writing this as once again the single airframe available today flys overhead....this could be linked to another thread...
5d2d
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The right of Redress is key and should be used, but it should not be abused.
In considering wether to Redress you need to be able to state that your have been wronged, explained what the effect of that was (in factual not perceived terms) and state how you want that wrong to be put right (hence the term redress of complaint). You cannot redress because something has happened to somebody else. There is also a time bar to redresses of complaint (3 months (if my memory serves me correctly) from either the incident or from when you learned of the incident). Though I have know Redresses be processed even if they are out of time.
So you will need factual evidence that your career has been affected (not just you think that you should be a group captain by now). Then you need to decide on what remedy your seek. You cannot just ask for an apology that does not put anything right.
You unit P staff should be able to help with the drafting of it and steer you if they think that a Redress is warranted (and not just completely hatstand).
In considering wether to Redress you need to be able to state that your have been wronged, explained what the effect of that was (in factual not perceived terms) and state how you want that wrong to be put right (hence the term redress of complaint). You cannot redress because something has happened to somebody else. There is also a time bar to redresses of complaint (3 months (if my memory serves me correctly) from either the incident or from when you learned of the incident). Though I have know Redresses be processed even if they are out of time.
So you will need factual evidence that your career has been affected (not just you think that you should be a group captain by now). Then you need to decide on what remedy your seek. You cannot just ask for an apology that does not put anything right.
You unit P staff should be able to help with the drafting of it and steer you if they think that a Redress is warranted (and not just completely hatstand).
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
If you have clear evidence of a deliberate omission or error on the part of your chain of command you might, after long consideration, submit a redress. But if, as you imply, you and others are working your nut$ off because of the incompetence of your senior leadership, that is a different category all together. That is called "being in the military" and is a widespread malaise that many suffer. Sadly, being bone from the neck up is not a barrier to senior leadership or further promotion.
A redress is a sure fire way to tell everyone you have realised the Emperor has no clothes, so you need to be well prepared. It is not something done lightly.
A redress is a sure fire way to tell everyone you have realised the Emperor has no clothes, so you need to be well prepared. It is not something done lightly.
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In the mid sixties I submitted a "redress of grievance", having been totally stitched up etc. etc. Some months later I was called into the adjutants office and told that, whilst I had an excellent case and everyones sympathy, "The Army doesn't like a soldier that complains". So, on his recommendation, I dropped it and, in todays vernacular, 'moved on' Be very sure you want to see this through and be prepared to accept that whatever the outcome it will rest as a black mark on your file, rightly or wrongly, Army, Navy or Air Force.
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Redressing your own chain of command is usually a bit of a black and yellow handle job, but if you really do have only 500 days left that doesn't seem like an issue!
The only redresses I have ever seen have been along the lines of 'I should have been promoted but my 1/2/3 RO doesn't like me...' All have failed.
JD
The only redresses I have ever seen have been along the lines of 'I should have been promoted but my 1/2/3 RO doesn't like me...' All have failed.
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52D2,
All that has been previously posted is true:
- redress exists for a reason - ie, the system isn't always perfect and needs a scheme to allow it rectify mistakes;
- it is reserved for serious malpractice in the chain of command;
- it is a very long and bloody process with incentives at each stage for people to get you to drop it and "make it go away";
- it shows you who your friends are (expected and unexpected);
- and I've seen it work, with the RAF coming to the right answer.
If you've got a case - and you need to show that malpractice, (preferably illegal malpractice in employment law terms) has occured - then you need to decide:
- what you want; and
- how badly you want to get it sorted.
If you decide you want to go for it, then do: based on what I've seen you will get a fair hearing. The person I saw go through it emerged better for it - as did the others in their unit who saw that a wrong had been righted.
S41
All that has been previously posted is true:
- redress exists for a reason - ie, the system isn't always perfect and needs a scheme to allow it rectify mistakes;
- it is reserved for serious malpractice in the chain of command;
- it is a very long and bloody process with incentives at each stage for people to get you to drop it and "make it go away";
- it shows you who your friends are (expected and unexpected);
- and I've seen it work, with the RAF coming to the right answer.
If you've got a case - and you need to show that malpractice, (preferably illegal malpractice in employment law terms) has occured - then you need to decide:
- what you want; and
- how badly you want to get it sorted.
If you decide you want to go for it, then do: based on what I've seen you will get a fair hearing. The person I saw go through it emerged better for it - as did the others in their unit who saw that a wrong had been righted.
S41
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5d2d
If you feel strongly about it, then I would urge you to do it.
I redressed PMA for, what I believed, to be incompetance and sheer 'bloody mindedness' on the part of a Sqn ldr there.
I saught some guidance from the chief clerk on how best to word the redress, and submitted it. I actually named the head of the PMA in the redress, and I understand it was then looked at by a civil servant, rarther than keeping it in house with the military.
If your case is worthy, and you can show that you have been unfairly treated etc. then you really have nothing to worry about.
I was very pleasantly surprised at the way my redress was handled. It appeared that common sense took over and the person dealing with it upheld my complaint and in simple terms I won! I got what I asked for (a lot of £££ returned) and the idiot in question had a little chat with someone slightly more senior than him!
Squirrel, I take your points, however, never at any stage was I offered any 'incentives' to drop it or let it go away. And, as you rightly say, you will most certainly find out who your (real) friends are!
Good luck 5d2d
Kind regards to all
TSM
If you feel strongly about it, then I would urge you to do it.
I redressed PMA for, what I believed, to be incompetance and sheer 'bloody mindedness' on the part of a Sqn ldr there.
I saught some guidance from the chief clerk on how best to word the redress, and submitted it. I actually named the head of the PMA in the redress, and I understand it was then looked at by a civil servant, rarther than keeping it in house with the military.
If your case is worthy, and you can show that you have been unfairly treated etc. then you really have nothing to worry about.
I was very pleasantly surprised at the way my redress was handled. It appeared that common sense took over and the person dealing with it upheld my complaint and in simple terms I won! I got what I asked for (a lot of £££ returned) and the idiot in question had a little chat with someone slightly more senior than him!
Squirrel, I take your points, however, never at any stage was I offered any 'incentives' to drop it or let it go away. And, as you rightly say, you will most certainly find out who your (real) friends are!
Good luck 5d2d
Kind regards to all
TSM
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TSM,
Sorry, wasn't being clear. There are no incentives being given out here - what I meant was that the incentive for your Station Commander, PMA, and everybody else is to make "problems" go away - either by sorting it, or having you withdraw it as seems to have happened before.
As I said, the case I know best has had an entirely satisfactory conclusion, and credit to PMA in the way it was handled and to those who stood up and were counted when it really mattered. It has also led to some positive changes in our neck of the woods.
S41
Sorry, wasn't being clear. There are no incentives being given out here - what I meant was that the incentive for your Station Commander, PMA, and everybody else is to make "problems" go away - either by sorting it, or having you withdraw it as seems to have happened before.
As I said, the case I know best has had an entirely satisfactory conclusion, and credit to PMA in the way it was handled and to those who stood up and were counted when it really mattered. It has also led to some positive changes in our neck of the woods.
S41
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I initiated several redresses a number of years ago. I also ended up drafting redresses for others as a result. The basic law is contained in the Air Force Act 1955, QRs and an AP whose number I don't recall. The time limit is 3 months from the date of complaint and there are time limits for every stage. This is as a direct result of the chaos and confusion I caused by making a late complaint and taking it all the way to the top (I was allowed to petition HMTQ, but I'm not sure if that right still exists).
The staff officers ranged against me were not happy because I redressed the decision of an AVM, althought to be fair that's because I caused my original complaint to be staffed up to that level. In the end it took me 4.5 years and must have cost the MoD a fortune in time, civil service manpower etc. The RAF didn't give me what I asked for, but they did change certain aspects of their original decisions and accepted that a lot of things said in my ACRs and the staff work were just not true - I won't name names here, but I discovered the names of several liars in the command chain. Rather depressingly it took a question from my MP to get hold of my ACRs; nowadays you can't be stitched up by the disingenuous and downright dishonest persons in the command chain, up to and including a Stn Cdr as it turned out in my case, because things are supposedly more open.
My advice, with a massive amount of hindsight, is try to obtain some sort of satisfaction through the normal avenues in the command chain if that is at all possible. Redress should be last resort. The date of the final decision not to help you is notionally the date that the 3 months should run from (its based on the civil judicial review timescales).
As already stated you will find out who your friends are; don't be surprised if you lose the odd party invite. The people who turned on me the most were people who had drank an awfully large amount of my booze and eaten a lot of food at my house. I really would like to name names, but I'm saving it for a special occasion.
The other thing I learnt was to make a lot more effort with my writing. I'd always thought I was a good writer, but when you are writing for a number of civil servants and officers to read you need to be concise or they will just ignore what you have to say. Unless you have a lot of technical detail or a lot of facts confine the main body of your redress to a couple of well structured pages. Put all the niff naff detail into an annex if need be.
Hope this helps.
The staff officers ranged against me were not happy because I redressed the decision of an AVM, althought to be fair that's because I caused my original complaint to be staffed up to that level. In the end it took me 4.5 years and must have cost the MoD a fortune in time, civil service manpower etc. The RAF didn't give me what I asked for, but they did change certain aspects of their original decisions and accepted that a lot of things said in my ACRs and the staff work were just not true - I won't name names here, but I discovered the names of several liars in the command chain. Rather depressingly it took a question from my MP to get hold of my ACRs; nowadays you can't be stitched up by the disingenuous and downright dishonest persons in the command chain, up to and including a Stn Cdr as it turned out in my case, because things are supposedly more open.
My advice, with a massive amount of hindsight, is try to obtain some sort of satisfaction through the normal avenues in the command chain if that is at all possible. Redress should be last resort. The date of the final decision not to help you is notionally the date that the 3 months should run from (its based on the civil judicial review timescales).
As already stated you will find out who your friends are; don't be surprised if you lose the odd party invite. The people who turned on me the most were people who had drank an awfully large amount of my booze and eaten a lot of food at my house. I really would like to name names, but I'm saving it for a special occasion.
The other thing I learnt was to make a lot more effort with my writing. I'd always thought I was a good writer, but when you are writing for a number of civil servants and officers to read you need to be concise or they will just ignore what you have to say. Unless you have a lot of technical detail or a lot of facts confine the main body of your redress to a couple of well structured pages. Put all the niff naff detail into an annex if need be.
Hope this helps.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Redress is not the only fruit.
Equal Opportunity legislation can also be very relevant. The mythical female is not the only person who can win. The rules are very wide ranging and action can even be achieved at an informal level.
You also have the right to have someone with you as both witness and mentor. This is a good move as it stops the meeting degenerating into a 2-way, or one-way, slanging match.
"Boss, sorry I have to say this but may we have a talk, doors closed? Boss, I think you are riding me, I need more space and I need you to get off my back." Boss can then ask what grounds you have for this and your mate can then prompt if need be.
Bit like the earlier comment about hoping the whole thing will go away. No boss should be stupid enough, if there is a shred of evidence, to tell you to stuff yourself. You have just given them the opportunity to say 'sorry' in front of a witness and reach a satisfactory closure.
Equal Opportunity legislation can also be very relevant. The mythical female is not the only person who can win. The rules are very wide ranging and action can even be achieved at an informal level.
You also have the right to have someone with you as both witness and mentor. This is a good move as it stops the meeting degenerating into a 2-way, or one-way, slanging match.
"Boss, sorry I have to say this but may we have a talk, doors closed? Boss, I think you are riding me, I need more space and I need you to get off my back." Boss can then ask what grounds you have for this and your mate can then prompt if need be.
Bit like the earlier comment about hoping the whole thing will go away. No boss should be stupid enough, if there is a shred of evidence, to tell you to stuff yourself. You have just given them the opportunity to say 'sorry' in front of a witness and reach a satisfactory closure.
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There's also the time factor to consider. I imagine you have significantly less than 500 days to do now. I initiated a redress close (bloody close in my case) to discharge and there's the question of just how far (into civvy street if necessary?) do you want to take it?
You'll certainly find out who your friends are!
You'll certainly find out who your friends are!
I was told that I had sufficient material to sue the little $hit who shafted me - but I couldn't be bothered as I was off on my way in any case.
I will get the little ba$tard one day though......and the fawning flunky of a Wg Cdr who facilitated his spiteful vindiction.
I will get the little ba$tard one day though......and the fawning flunky of a Wg Cdr who facilitated his spiteful vindiction.
I don't think so, Paul!
But you might like to know that a couple of the turds who ruined life at Brize are now out of the Service - although they secured pretty good redundancy hand outs in the process....
But you might like to know that a couple of the turds who ruined life at Brize are now out of the Service - although they secured pretty good redundancy hand outs in the process....
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Beagle Sits on the Fence .....
But you might like to know that a couple of the turds who ruined life at Brize are now out of the Service ..
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Now which fight was that one? I can't remember all the little skirmishes that fill my life.
I'm long retired and although I occasionally get involved with the odd things military, I am more involved with political things these days. I seem to have had a reasonable hit rate with the things I've been involved in, but many of my successes have had a reverse side to them. Like the redress, I didn't get what I wanted, but the system was changed to make it a lot fairer to all sides.
I did win damages off the MoD for wrongful arrest, unlawful imprisonment and unlawful search over my whistleblowing, but, typically, my barrister screwed up an application and we didn't get costs!
I'm long retired and although I occasionally get involved with the odd things military, I am more involved with political things these days. I seem to have had a reasonable hit rate with the things I've been involved in, but many of my successes have had a reverse side to them. Like the redress, I didn't get what I wanted, but the system was changed to make it a lot fairer to all sides.
I did win damages off the MoD for wrongful arrest, unlawful imprisonment and unlawful search over my whistleblowing, but, typically, my barrister screwed up an application and we didn't get costs!
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No winners
The problem with a redress is that at the end of the day the AOC makes a judgement.In my case as i was a WO1 the OC couldnt discipline me other than CM(not a good idea for him) so i was posted(no redress possible for me).Therefore the AOC deemed no redress as i had not been punished.To all sane people i was "kicked off the station" and mud sticks,so i lost.Can anyone truly say they have redressed!!!
I find this thread fascinating. I’m astonished you’ve been able to find anything to seek redress for that hasn’t already been (a) condoned by senior management (in that no action has been taken) or (b) formally ruled as not constituting wrongdoing. That is, a precedent has been set.
No doubt it is slightly different in the Services but in the Civil Service the burden of proof is on the person seeking “redress” and that burden is very much higher than one would experience in the civil courts. For example, witnesses, written evidence etc. can simply be ignored by the officer hearing the case. In fact, he is under no obligation to interview witnesses in the first place, or read the evidence. I’ve only known one person to be successful. He took it all the way to the Cabinet Secretary, ignoring the “rule” that says PUS is the final arbiter. He is a very strong character, and had to be when, as you say, he discovered who is friends were. Yet, even though he won (in financial terms) no action was taken against the offenders, most of who were promptly promoted.
I’ve seen people get away with the usual things like fraud, bullying, harassment, lying in annual reports, maladministration (all quite common) but the one I always remember was falsifying inspection records on aircraft components (in order to get more bonus). The guy was told to pick another inspector next time, one who wouldn’t spot the deceit! I got an earful for (a) refusing to stamp for the job (or catching him out, I was never sure) and (b) reporting him in accordance with the regs. I didn’t seek redress, I applied for a posting. (His dad was a gaffer, so I’d never win). He got promoted off the bench (which is one way of stopping him doing it again – rewarded with more pay). The fly guys at Leuchars thought I deserved a medal. (Would YOU want your crash switches going off at 2g?).
No doubt it is slightly different in the Services but in the Civil Service the burden of proof is on the person seeking “redress” and that burden is very much higher than one would experience in the civil courts. For example, witnesses, written evidence etc. can simply be ignored by the officer hearing the case. In fact, he is under no obligation to interview witnesses in the first place, or read the evidence. I’ve only known one person to be successful. He took it all the way to the Cabinet Secretary, ignoring the “rule” that says PUS is the final arbiter. He is a very strong character, and had to be when, as you say, he discovered who is friends were. Yet, even though he won (in financial terms) no action was taken against the offenders, most of who were promptly promoted.
I’ve seen people get away with the usual things like fraud, bullying, harassment, lying in annual reports, maladministration (all quite common) but the one I always remember was falsifying inspection records on aircraft components (in order to get more bonus). The guy was told to pick another inspector next time, one who wouldn’t spot the deceit! I got an earful for (a) refusing to stamp for the job (or catching him out, I was never sure) and (b) reporting him in accordance with the regs. I didn’t seek redress, I applied for a posting. (His dad was a gaffer, so I’d never win). He got promoted off the bench (which is one way of stopping him doing it again – rewarded with more pay). The fly guys at Leuchars thought I deserved a medal. (Would YOU want your crash switches going off at 2g?).