Military Security
Join Date: May 2004
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The story is no different from the numerous attempts made upon civil airports, Royal residences and other such establishments since 9/11. All it serves is to increase the sales of the particular tabloid involved, and only the typical brain dead reader feels that the journalist is doing any 'service' to anyone other than himself and his editor. It's hardly giving anything away to any terrorist organisations, as even the poorly organised groups could work out for themselves routes and times of entry to most military establishments if they wanted to. It doesn't take into account that the Sedcurity Service / MI5 are watching them anyway, but it might well prove useful to giving a 'gentle prod' to those who are trying to stay awake on guard duty. Guards on the gate are really a token measure to show some force - if they really thought we'd need to fire our weapons (bearing in mind that most main gates are right in line to a main road, some with married quarters directly opposite!) they'd issue us with a low velocity round (9mm MP5 anyone?) so that it wouldn't just go straight through the target, or whatever is in the way when we miss. The biggest deterent is to actually start studying the ID cards when you're on the gate - you just have to look how startled people are when you ask them to actually wind down the window and hand over the card, instead of just pushing it up to the screen whilst staring blankly ahead!!
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Far from being "brain dead", tonkatechie, I am alive enough to recognise complacency when I read about it. This chap apparently entered with a car number that didn't match the one on his pass and spent 7 hours wandering the base unchallenged.
We're not talking here about tight security or even any security at all.
My dog guards my house better than most military bases are guarded.
Time to wake up to the facts.
We're not talking here about tight security or even any security at all.
My dog guards my house better than most military bases are guarded.
Time to wake up to the facts.
Join Date: May 2004
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I am alive enough to recognise complacency when I read about it
As an aside, I flew from southern Germany to Scotland via Stansted this week. Without any changing of clothes etc, I managed to set off the metal detector in Germany which resulted in another walk through without my belt or shoes on and a thorough (professional) body search; yet when I got to England the detector went off and I was merely given a crap search (didn't even check the small of my back) and asked to show the soles of my shoes! Just goes to show how the same 'threat' at different places is met with a different response.
Never did find out what set it off mind you - must be all that swarf in my hands!!
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Agreed, tonkatechie, isn't it annoying to turn up early to allow time for the security checks and then discover that they are only paying lip service to the issue.
However, I remain convinced that the occasional front page story does much more good than harm.
However, I remain convinced that the occasional front page story does much more good than harm.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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they'd issue us with a low velocity round (9mm MP5 anyone?)
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Yes indeed they are - specially procured by the DPA who had to pay extra to get them mucked about with (as usual). It's a bespoke low velocity round, and the weapons themselves have had to be modified to only fire single shot to comply with the 'proportionate response' rules - all according to that quality rag put out by the DPA themselves. So do 'real' police weapons not fire burst/auto?
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Some years ago (1985??) an officer in the RAF Regt was castigated for suggesting that a shot gun might be an appropriate gate guard wpn.
I feel we could well reconsider the proposal. A semi-auto shotgun, loaded with birdshot in the first cartridge, buckshot in the second, and solid shot thereafter.
First shot will stop an intruder, second will kill, third & subsequent will deal with vehicles. Mistakes will travel no more than 30 yds.
Anyone out there who has the auth to make it so?
I feel we could well reconsider the proposal. A semi-auto shotgun, loaded with birdshot in the first cartridge, buckshot in the second, and solid shot thereafter.
First shot will stop an intruder, second will kill, third & subsequent will deal with vehicles. Mistakes will travel no more than 30 yds.
Anyone out there who has the auth to make it so?
Join Date: Mar 2005
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The base I live on, and others I work at across the region have both Biometric ID cards and shotguns on the gate. I would say 1 in 4 times I go through the gate the ‘chip and fingerprint’ is checked and the barcode thing on the back is scanned every time.
The guards have a pistol strapped to their thigh and shotgun slung across their back. There are at least 3 guards on every gate, regular foot and vehicle patrols and then more guards around the flight line.
We are at the equivalent of Bikini Black Special.
Obviously this security is great, but how much does it cost? Would we have the personnel to do it? There is already a thread about guys in Iraq guarding when not on shift, where would we find the manpower? Even if we did guard the UK bases in this manner, would the ROE give us the opportunity to use any of our gear??
All this said, some security is definitely better than none!
The guards have a pistol strapped to their thigh and shotgun slung across their back. There are at least 3 guards on every gate, regular foot and vehicle patrols and then more guards around the flight line.
We are at the equivalent of Bikini Black Special.
Obviously this security is great, but how much does it cost? Would we have the personnel to do it? There is already a thread about guys in Iraq guarding when not on shift, where would we find the manpower? Even if we did guard the UK bases in this manner, would the ROE give us the opportunity to use any of our gear??
All this said, some security is definitely better than none!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Things never change, I remember comments like this 30 - 35 years ago, only then related to the IRA which was probably a bigger and more imminent threat (remember the Uxbridge bomb, after which we were actually given rounds for the guns, previously only provided in NI!). Now as then it seems to largely come down to cash and commitment.
Anti Flame: I am not saying there is no threat now or that things should not improve! Also I am not referring to sites in very hot countries and acknowledge the IRA did not go in for suicide bombs.
Anti Flame: I am not saying there is no threat now or that things should not improve! Also I am not referring to sites in very hot countries and acknowledge the IRA did not go in for suicide bombs.
Last edited by egbt; 22nd Jun 2005 at 08:05.
The MPGS at the unit with which I am familiar are doing a sound job. ID is checked with care and it’s not unusual to see a 100% check. They are not afraid to do these checks at the busy times of the day, when a large number of disgruntled people (mil and civ) have a good old whinge about the delays. They are not exercising power to b*gger people about, but even if they were, it’s the end result that matters. That said, in the days when we had an adequate number of RAF Pol doing the job (we even had dogs), the deterrent was probably more overt, but I doubt if it was more effective.
Rather more worryingly, the people who work within the camp are rarely called-upon to exercise any security measures, so probably have little appreciation of how important it could, potentially, be. I can recall only one Op Roundup in the last 12 months, and yet in the 80’s it wasn’t unusual to do one or two a month. Security is everybody’s responsibility.
Rather more worryingly, the people who work within the camp are rarely called-upon to exercise any security measures, so probably have little appreciation of how important it could, potentially, be. I can recall only one Op Roundup in the last 12 months, and yet in the 80’s it wasn’t unusual to do one or two a month. Security is everybody’s responsibility.
Last edited by Canary Boy; 22nd Jun 2005 at 08:32.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The very next day I walked in to a hadquarters site (name withheld to protect the guilty). I was checked at the gate by a service policeman - no problem there.
I then, wearing civilian clothes, I wandered into the building I was looking for but no one around. Eventually I found a civilian who suggested I try a different building. I bimbled over there and a helpful SNCO searched the base directory for the person I was looking for. No luck. I wandered back to the original building, tried the second floor and asked another civilian who suggested the ground floor.
More bimbling and I stumbled into the right office. While there an 'escort only' visitor was escorted out [mm if they had taken their tag off they could have gone unescorted].
I then bimbled across to another building and this time thought it was unnecssary to disturb the guard (civilian) and bimbled up stairs.
Finally, as I was leaving I got lost. A helpful civilian pointed me in the right direction.
I bimbled out never once having been asked who I was, what I was doing, or if I had a pass. Other than the guard on the gate that was it.
The underlying problem is the place is full of civilians even though it is a miliary headquarters. I have tighter security at home!
I then, wearing civilian clothes, I wandered into the building I was looking for but no one around. Eventually I found a civilian who suggested I try a different building. I bimbled over there and a helpful SNCO searched the base directory for the person I was looking for. No luck. I wandered back to the original building, tried the second floor and asked another civilian who suggested the ground floor.
More bimbling and I stumbled into the right office. While there an 'escort only' visitor was escorted out [mm if they had taken their tag off they could have gone unescorted].
I then bimbled across to another building and this time thought it was unnecssary to disturb the guard (civilian) and bimbled up stairs.
Finally, as I was leaving I got lost. A helpful civilian pointed me in the right direction.
I bimbled out never once having been asked who I was, what I was doing, or if I had a pass. Other than the guard on the gate that was it.
The underlying problem is the place is full of civilians even though it is a miliary headquarters. I have tighter security at home!
Join Date: Jul 2004
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The sad fact of the matter is that at the vast majority of UK bases security is at best, slack. At certain somewhere in the UK that probably should be well protected it's possible to get on camp by flashing a blockbuster card or even (on one occasion to prove a point) a piece of toast at the plod on the gate.
The sad fact of the matter is that base security has been debated on Pprune and other such sites ad naseum and will continue to be only debated here until a major incident occurs that highlights the problem to those who actually have the sway to do something about it! (ref: uxbridge)
The sad fact of the matter is that base security has been debated on Pprune and other such sites ad naseum and will continue to be only debated here until a major incident occurs that highlights the problem to those who actually have the sway to do something about it! (ref: uxbridge)
Join Date: Oct 2004
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RoundUp? A Weedkillser
VVHA,
The RN do have an equivalent of Op Round Up - your comments suggest that you haven't spent any time at Faslane. As a frequent light-blue visitor at HMNB Clyde 3-4 years ago, many was the time I received a 'shake' in my 'cabin' to check my id as teams of RM and MDP whizzed around the site in landrovers, responding to intruder alerts.
CC
The RN do have an equivalent of Op Round Up - your comments suggest that you haven't spent any time at Faslane. As a frequent light-blue visitor at HMNB Clyde 3-4 years ago, many was the time I received a 'shake' in my 'cabin' to check my id as teams of RM and MDP whizzed around the site in landrovers, responding to intruder alerts.
CC
