RAF AT fleet, cx this out!
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lineslime, you complain that the ARRSE site is "RAF Bashing"...and this site doesnt bash anyone......right?? It doesnt bash drunken Army Pilots or the labour government for the TSR2 debacle etc. etc. etc..
Departments in all services have "off" days, but is that really sufficient reason to crucify each other? Sure the AT Staff get it wrong seemingly quite often, but think of all the passengers that they happily send on their way. I have no complaints with my numerous dealings with the RAF and Army Movers during my extensive service especially when I had to Comp B from the Falkland Islands when my father passed away. First Class service in a Tristar, then top-notch treatment at Brize en-route to Glasgow.
The "do better at school" argument doesnt hold water, career paths are a choice and nothing to do with "school".
Departments in all services have "off" days, but is that really sufficient reason to crucify each other? Sure the AT Staff get it wrong seemingly quite often, but think of all the passengers that they happily send on their way. I have no complaints with my numerous dealings with the RAF and Army Movers during my extensive service especially when I had to Comp B from the Falkland Islands when my father passed away. First Class service in a Tristar, then top-notch treatment at Brize en-route to Glasgow.
The "do better at school" argument doesnt hold water, career paths are a choice and nothing to do with "school".
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Kenny
If people did better at school then more career paths would be open to them, thus giving them a wider choice. At least this site tends to spread it's bashing liberaly throughout the available targets and doesn't just generalise. Anyway politicians are ther to be targets for this sort of thing, it just so happens that the liabor government make such an easy target of themselves.
Being a member of the AT brotherhood, albeit at ground crew level, I can ensure you that from my side of things we work effing hard to ensure all tasking is met, available aircraft and spares permiting, and the crews do their bit as well to make sure everything runs smoothly at their end. It is those responsible for tasking and planning that tend to cause the problems. Imagine an aircraft coming back from a long route, at about 02:00, and being tasked to go again at 07:00. You can guarante that it will be carrying snags, which need fixing, and the worlds biggest role change not to mention the flight servicings. None of the rects can get done untill the A/F is sorted, the role can't get done till the snags have been done, etc.
If people did better at school then more career paths would be open to them, thus giving them a wider choice. At least this site tends to spread it's bashing liberaly throughout the available targets and doesn't just generalise. Anyway politicians are ther to be targets for this sort of thing, it just so happens that the liabor government make such an easy target of themselves.
Being a member of the AT brotherhood, albeit at ground crew level, I can ensure you that from my side of things we work effing hard to ensure all tasking is met, available aircraft and spares permiting, and the crews do their bit as well to make sure everything runs smoothly at their end. It is those responsible for tasking and planning that tend to cause the problems. Imagine an aircraft coming back from a long route, at about 02:00, and being tasked to go again at 07:00. You can guarante that it will be carrying snags, which need fixing, and the worlds biggest role change not to mention the flight servicings. None of the rects can get done untill the A/F is sorted, the role can't get done till the snags have been done, etc.
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I hear ya lineslime!!! I guess that there are snags that we aircrew gods just couldnt accept! I believe that the aircrew/groundcrew argie-bargie is unwarranted. We all work towards the same goal........KEEP THE CUSTOMER SATISFIED......whether it be Army, Navy, RAF or Royal Marine.
Now, if only the movers would co-operate......aaahhhh....if only!!
Now, if only the movers would co-operate......aaahhhh....if only!!
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During Telic we picked up a comp pax from AKT and had to go to Lossie before Brize.
The pax were overnighted in AKT prior to flight but the few pax who were from Lossie/Kinloss were refused permission to get off at Lossie.. The movers excuse? "not enough time to sort bags"!!
Anyway we landed at Lossie with hot brakes (capts club foot) and waited about 2 hours for the brakes to cool..
Were the Lossie/Kinloss pax allowed off by the movs?? NO
They were made to fly back to Brize, get a bus to Heathrow then another flight to Aberdeen then a bus to Lossie..
I Kid you not this actually happened...and Im sure the Movs blamed 216 sqn..
The pax were overnighted in AKT prior to flight but the few pax who were from Lossie/Kinloss were refused permission to get off at Lossie.. The movers excuse? "not enough time to sort bags"!!
Anyway we landed at Lossie with hot brakes (capts club foot) and waited about 2 hours for the brakes to cool..
Were the Lossie/Kinloss pax allowed off by the movs?? NO
They were made to fly back to Brize, get a bus to Heathrow then another flight to Aberdeen then a bus to Lossie..
I Kid you not this actually happened...and Im sure the Movs blamed 216 sqn..
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I can see a common denominator appearing here, MOVERS. But as i'm sure you are all aware the RAF is supposed to revolve around them. They are the dogs dangly bits where bag crushing/losing is concerned, not to mention ramp and herc external tank tw@tting. Oh and I almost forgot the fact they can do role changes down route, but only if it is somewhere nice.
Please anyone who's lift home, via the AT fleet, is delayed don't blame it on the air/ground crew blame those actually responsible.
Please anyone who's lift home, via the AT fleet, is delayed don't blame it on the air/ground crew blame those actually responsible.
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Mmmm,
Some months ago I started a thread to encourage Movers and Loadies to banter and air their differences. Some may say that it was a bit of sh!t stirring but that was not the case. I would say that 80% of the banter, and some vitriolic posts, came from the aircrew.
Now we have another thread and 100% of the posts come from aircrew in general and a few ground crew, none of whom have anything good to say about Movers.
Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view ?
Not sh!t stirring you understand.....only being a little mischievous.
Regards to all,
E5
Some months ago I started a thread to encourage Movers and Loadies to banter and air their differences. Some may say that it was a bit of sh!t stirring but that was not the case. I would say that 80% of the banter, and some vitriolic posts, came from the aircrew.
Now we have another thread and 100% of the posts come from aircrew in general and a few ground crew, none of whom have anything good to say about Movers.
Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view ?
Not sh!t stirring you understand.....only being a little mischievous.
Regards to all,
E5
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Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view
Tried to do that on the previous Movers V Loadies thread and it made no difference. Some people would rather blame the movers (Akrotiri opening hours was the best) for everything rather than find out the facts.
Waiting for the inevitable - why did the mover take my knife / LSJ off me comments........................
and talking of Akrotiri...... heard a rumour about a motor bike being flown there which got a few scratches during the landing.........any comments from 99 Sqn????
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November4
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Probably because we can't be ar$ed and rise above it all.
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Thought that might be the case but I wish a few more of them could be arsed otherwise it all becomes a bit one sided.
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Probably because we can't be ar$ed and rise above it all.
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Thought that might be the case but I wish a few more of them could be arsed otherwise it all becomes a bit one sided.
Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view
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Personally I think enough has been said about movers/2 Gp aircrew/grdcrew. I agree with most statements about the movers but I've been treated well (generally) by the cabin staff on Tristars etc. The problem rests well above their pay grade.
I am however completely f&cked off with seeing Sqns having their time wasted before and after Exercises and Detatchments. There is so much time spent on cutting costs and personnel nowadays when I would ask that if in one year all the Sqns at Marham have wasted almost 50 days 'travelling' time due to 2 Gp ac unservicability - how much cost and waste does that equate to? How much personal cost to wives/husbands/partners does that incur. You get my point.
Why does AOC 2 Gp not bite the bullet and declare the fleet as only being (maybe) capable of servicing Operational Theatres and not any Exercises or Detachments. Therefore some of you may have a better chance of getting a spare aircraft to get you back from Basrah etc.
Yours
TUFO
I am however completely f&cked off with seeing Sqns having their time wasted before and after Exercises and Detatchments. There is so much time spent on cutting costs and personnel nowadays when I would ask that if in one year all the Sqns at Marham have wasted almost 50 days 'travelling' time due to 2 Gp ac unservicability - how much cost and waste does that equate to? How much personal cost to wives/husbands/partners does that incur. You get my point.
Why does AOC 2 Gp not bite the bullet and declare the fleet as only being (maybe) capable of servicing Operational Theatres and not any Exercises or Detachments. Therefore some of you may have a better chance of getting a spare aircraft to get you back from Basrah etc.
Yours
TUFO
Why does AOC 2 Gp not bite the bullet and declare the fleet as only being (maybe) capable of servicing Operational Theatres and not any Exercises or Detachments.
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Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view
Safety_Helmut
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I've read this thread with great interest having been infuriated with the service provided by RAF AT in the past and also at times been pleasantly surprised, I'm not a great one for blaming individuals per se, the whole movements and AT set-up needs massive reformation which hopefully will come with something like LEAN...... oh Go help us
We appear to lag miles behind the civilian industry in our operations and procedures. I would, however place most of the blame on the leadership at Brize, Akrotiri, other permanent air heads and 2 Gp for not empowering the individuals to make reasonable and rational decisions. Waking passengers who have already checked in all their backs and will operating operationally the moment they arrive in theatre.....3 and 1/2 hours before the aircraft departs may be in the manual and the DAMO insists the manual is adhered too but it makes no f##### sense...well someone should re-write the manual. And not making the reception personnel realise that their job is vital to liase with dependents is poor simply poor leadership and management.
It is important we get it right so that we look professional and caring to our sister services, since the only meeting the average Army unit gets with air power is the SAC on passes and permits, the SAC on check-in, the corporal police man, the SAC dispatcher and the SAC steward/stewardess. These guys need to have it explained in no uncertain terms why there job is so important and more empathy is required. Evenmore importantly our RAF personnel don't feel respected by their own employer if they get treated like dirt on their own airline. Ultimately, somelike the staish at Brize or Akrotire has to carry the can.
Having ranted a little here i might add that the one time I pointed out the stupdity of a movements procedure at Akrotiri through the official channels it was changed by the time I returned.
We appear to lag miles behind the civilian industry in our operations and procedures. I would, however place most of the blame on the leadership at Brize, Akrotiri, other permanent air heads and 2 Gp for not empowering the individuals to make reasonable and rational decisions. Waking passengers who have already checked in all their backs and will operating operationally the moment they arrive in theatre.....3 and 1/2 hours before the aircraft departs may be in the manual and the DAMO insists the manual is adhered too but it makes no f##### sense...well someone should re-write the manual. And not making the reception personnel realise that their job is vital to liase with dependents is poor simply poor leadership and management.
It is important we get it right so that we look professional and caring to our sister services, since the only meeting the average Army unit gets with air power is the SAC on passes and permits, the SAC on check-in, the corporal police man, the SAC dispatcher and the SAC steward/stewardess. These guys need to have it explained in no uncertain terms why there job is so important and more empathy is required. Evenmore importantly our RAF personnel don't feel respected by their own employer if they get treated like dirt on their own airline. Ultimately, somelike the staish at Brize or Akrotire has to carry the can.
Having ranted a little here i might add that the one time I pointed out the stupdity of a movements procedure at Akrotiri through the official channels it was changed by the time I returned.
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My only bad experience of movers was when deployed with only 14 hrs notice. The deal was to get 10 bodies and 4 L/R Trailer combinations to Lyenham via South Cerney. We packed and lauched to South Cerney. On arrival, the RLC chaps emptied our vehicles and made us unwrap the batteries that were were so used to wrapping for AT flights (apparantly the AP had been changed such that batteries no longer had to be wrapped). They confiscated our heaters (kerosene fumes) and sent us on our way. On arrival at Lyenham, the RAF movers unpacked our vehicle, made us wrap our batteries (just in case) and loaned us a couple of smelly kerosene heaters.
Not exactly joined-up processing of pax.
PS. My funniest experience was on return six months later when the RAF Plod made me put my rifle through the x-ray machine; what was all that about?
PPS. I almost forgot. The enforced breakfast (no matter what time) at Lyneham Airmen's Mess, complete with a stroppy, red armband wearing youngster telling us that we had only 15 minutes to eat. I suggested he learnt his military rank structure.
Not exactly joined-up processing of pax.
PS. My funniest experience was on return six months later when the RAF Plod made me put my rifle through the x-ray machine; what was all that about?
PPS. I almost forgot. The enforced breakfast (no matter what time) at Lyneham Airmen's Mess, complete with a stroppy, red armband wearing youngster telling us that we had only 15 minutes to eat. I suggested he learnt his military rank structure.
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November 4
Your attitude just about sums up what most (aircrew) think about movers - Yeah, 'you can't be arsed'
Sadly, that is how many/most of you approach your job aswell, you just can't be arsed.
There are so many negative comments on this thread, because there is so much negativity with most movers. They take great delight in going out of their way to screw people around, and I genuingly don't know why.
One of my last deployments using AT, was from Waddo to Thumrait. First we have the 'nause' of being bussed to BZN at about midnight fm Waddo, then a 5 hr wait in the gatehouse 'cos the aircraft is delayed for 'so and so'
Then the fiasco that is, going thru the RAFP run 'customs and check in' area. Have a fight with the plods, because 'you can't wear an aircrew knife in the aircraft Sir!' (what the hell is that all about then??)
Finally get airborne out of BZN to Akrotiri. Land there and go u/s. No big deal, '$hit happens' and we're going to be on the ground for at least 12 hrs. 'OK, please can we get our bags off the aircraft so we can get a wash, change clothes etc?' Only to be told by said mover 'Sorry Sir, no one is allowed back on the aircraft'
Spend the next 18 hours, in same $hitty, $melly flying suit that we had worn since leaving Waddo the day before. Finally gbet to Thumrait jus feeling absolutely crap! A great way to start an operational deployment. (maybe the RAF Flight safety Team should take a look at the effect all this nonesence has on aircrew??)
Movers? RAFP? Sorry guys, you are little more than an 'operating hazard' to most aircrew, and you all need to chill out, remember which side your on, and get a life.
Kind regards
TSM
Your attitude just about sums up what most (aircrew) think about movers - Yeah, 'you can't be arsed'
Sadly, that is how many/most of you approach your job aswell, you just can't be arsed.
There are so many negative comments on this thread, because there is so much negativity with most movers. They take great delight in going out of their way to screw people around, and I genuingly don't know why.
One of my last deployments using AT, was from Waddo to Thumrait. First we have the 'nause' of being bussed to BZN at about midnight fm Waddo, then a 5 hr wait in the gatehouse 'cos the aircraft is delayed for 'so and so'
Then the fiasco that is, going thru the RAFP run 'customs and check in' area. Have a fight with the plods, because 'you can't wear an aircrew knife in the aircraft Sir!' (what the hell is that all about then??)
Finally get airborne out of BZN to Akrotiri. Land there and go u/s. No big deal, '$hit happens' and we're going to be on the ground for at least 12 hrs. 'OK, please can we get our bags off the aircraft so we can get a wash, change clothes etc?' Only to be told by said mover 'Sorry Sir, no one is allowed back on the aircraft'
Spend the next 18 hours, in same $hitty, $melly flying suit that we had worn since leaving Waddo the day before. Finally gbet to Thumrait jus feeling absolutely crap! A great way to start an operational deployment. (maybe the RAF Flight safety Team should take a look at the effect all this nonesence has on aircrew??)
Movers? RAFP? Sorry guys, you are little more than an 'operating hazard' to most aircrew, and you all need to chill out, remember which side your on, and get a life.
Kind regards
TSM
Fat Albert
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1. There is never any excuse for rudeness. The lack of proper use of rank on PA announcemnents and in general when dealing with customers reflects a lack of propoer training and a lack of general discipline within the workplace. This is not restricted to the movements world but can be seen in almost any section on any unit. The blame for this lies with the JNCOs and SNCOs who let this go on.
2. The issue raised by Lineslime with reference to movers operating ramps, applying aircraft power etc, has given me a cause to worry but I really dont know what the alteranative is. The line do not have sufficient resources to supply a techie babysitter for every aircraft load/unload.
3. In defence of the movers and cabin staff In my experience your average person turns into a complete pain in the backside when he/she becomes an aircraft passenger. They always have the most important piece of hand luggage despite it being twice as large as the limit and it must go in the cabin with them. They always want the seats with more leg room, the seat belt signs dont apply to them as they need to do something very important like get a book out of the overhead rack. The list goes on.
These people are there to look after our safety and general well being when we fly. In most cases they do an excellent job. When they dont, there is a complaints procedure in place as described in an earlier post.
2. The issue raised by Lineslime with reference to movers operating ramps, applying aircraft power etc, has given me a cause to worry but I really dont know what the alteranative is. The line do not have sufficient resources to supply a techie babysitter for every aircraft load/unload.
3. In defence of the movers and cabin staff In my experience your average person turns into a complete pain in the backside when he/she becomes an aircraft passenger. They always have the most important piece of hand luggage despite it being twice as large as the limit and it must go in the cabin with them. They always want the seats with more leg room, the seat belt signs dont apply to them as they need to do something very important like get a book out of the overhead rack. The list goes on.
These people are there to look after our safety and general well being when we fly. In most cases they do an excellent job. When they dont, there is a complaints procedure in place as described in an earlier post.
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As everyone has been bashing the RAF movers I thought that I would give you a prime target as I am a Civil Servant Mover working for the USAF in the UK (also an Ex-auggie Rockape).
Lineslime- surely the movers SHOULD NOT be touching the aircraft until the aircraft is fully blocked in (grounded/chocked etc). The USAF do not allow us to touch the aircraft until it is fully chocked and grounded and all the aircraft ramp operations are conducted by the Loadmaster or Maintenance personnel which gets rid of the problem of people in the wheel well.It helps that the maintenance people are part of our squadron as well so if they have any problems they talk to us directly or filter it through the control centres and vice versa.
Swinging Monkey- everytime we have an aircraft that rests over night either through crew rest or maint problems, then the Pax bags are downloaded as standard and then reloaded in the morning or when the aircraft is due to depart. That way the pax can change their clothes and wash etc.
These are our SOPs but we dont get involved with the Real Air Force much so I dont really know how they work. If you want to get meet some good movers albeit civvies then come into Mildenhall we will be happy to load/unload you
Lineslime- surely the movers SHOULD NOT be touching the aircraft until the aircraft is fully blocked in (grounded/chocked etc). The USAF do not allow us to touch the aircraft until it is fully chocked and grounded and all the aircraft ramp operations are conducted by the Loadmaster or Maintenance personnel which gets rid of the problem of people in the wheel well.It helps that the maintenance people are part of our squadron as well so if they have any problems they talk to us directly or filter it through the control centres and vice versa.
Swinging Monkey- everytime we have an aircraft that rests over night either through crew rest or maint problems, then the Pax bags are downloaded as standard and then reloaded in the morning or when the aircraft is due to depart. That way the pax can change their clothes and wash etc.
These are our SOPs but we dont get involved with the Real Air Force much so I dont really know how they work. If you want to get meet some good movers albeit civvies then come into Mildenhall we will be happy to load/unload you
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"Have you tried to get to the CB with the back end full of crew bags, movers, pax and freight, about 30 seconds after the last prop has stopped spinning. It is impossible. Perhaps the movers would find it more prudent to wait untill the nose leg pin is inserted and the aircraft earthed before they drop the ramp. Just a thought.........."
Lineslime, the scenario you mentioned above would have nothing to do with the movers as the ALM is still in charge whilst pax onboard/props spinning etc, the movers traffic team are not allowed onboard to unload until all pax/crew have left the aircraft.?
Lineslime, the scenario you mentioned above would have nothing to do with the movers as the ALM is still in charge whilst pax onboard/props spinning etc, the movers traffic team are not allowed onboard to unload until all pax/crew have left the aircraft.?
I can't say that I can recall many problems during my few airmoves during the time I was in. However, I always had the impression of the movers having that "I can f*** you about and there's nothing you can do about it" air about them.
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so these professional movers? like the one currently in bahrain who is sat nicely on a thousand a month rates, personal landrover discovery, working in civvies and having a right old laugh... oh and not to mention the stupid amount of money he is making on the side every time beer is shipped out of there to 'other places'...but only a dollar a crate...hmmm let me see, 1500 crates+ a week......
what a professional.
what a professional.