Lynx Down on SPTA
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Miles,
I would'nt put too much stock in the ramblings of H3F as you are not the first, and I suspect not the last, to be given the benifit of his vast "experiance"
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I would'nt put too much stock in the ramblings of H3F as you are not the first, and I suspect not the last, to be given the benifit of his vast "experiance"
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Miles
I believe you are largely correct. FBG manage what are now called "Outputs" (#6 is the important one, I think) and I believe the theory is that, now it is managed at ABW, the interested IPTs can take the next logical step and apply the science. The problem before, when it was managed in London, was that ARP had no process for telling anyone what they'd done. A project would subsequently have a bright idea, and pay a second time for the same research. Often, I had to rely on an honest contractor to admit the work had already been done.
Having said all that, the link between IPTs and FBG is the Requirement Manager. The last time I tried to make a bid for research through my RqM, he hadn't a clue what I was talking about, thought I was wasting his time, didn't pass the bid on to FBG, and the front line suffered.
There may be millions, but if that scenario is repeated too often they may not actually be spending it!
I believe you are largely correct. FBG manage what are now called "Outputs" (#6 is the important one, I think) and I believe the theory is that, now it is managed at ABW, the interested IPTs can take the next logical step and apply the science. The problem before, when it was managed in London, was that ARP had no process for telling anyone what they'd done. A project would subsequently have a bright idea, and pay a second time for the same research. Often, I had to rely on an honest contractor to admit the work had already been done.
Having said all that, the link between IPTs and FBG is the Requirement Manager. The last time I tried to make a bid for research through my RqM, he hadn't a clue what I was talking about, thought I was wasting his time, didn't pass the bid on to FBG, and the front line suffered.
There may be millions, but if that scenario is repeated too often they may not actually be spending it!
Beagle
ABW – Abbey Wood. A small railway station in north Bristol, adjacent to a rather nice, but largely unused, MoD tennis court. Nearby is a motley collection of government buildings housing lots of support staff and, allegedly, one or two minions who buy military kit.
FBG – Future Business Group. A Group of aforesaid support staff who conduct their Business by looking to the Future. In other words, they have their eye on the(ir) balls.
IPT – Integrated Project Teams. Residing within these buildings, they are usually disparate individuals, with little morale or team spirit, and occasionally manage projects in between compiling rafts of useless “returns” for aforesaid support staff. They are the successors to truly integrated project teams, previously known as MoD(PE).
RqM – Requirement Managers. A collection of square pegs in round holes, paid lots to do a job previously carried out by civil servants at two grades lower. As few can tell you what they are meant to do, it would be wrong of me to speculate, although I understand most IPTs have thriving entertainment committees.
I hope this is illuminating!
ABW – Abbey Wood. A small railway station in north Bristol, adjacent to a rather nice, but largely unused, MoD tennis court. Nearby is a motley collection of government buildings housing lots of support staff and, allegedly, one or two minions who buy military kit.
FBG – Future Business Group. A Group of aforesaid support staff who conduct their Business by looking to the Future. In other words, they have their eye on the(ir) balls.
IPT – Integrated Project Teams. Residing within these buildings, they are usually disparate individuals, with little morale or team spirit, and occasionally manage projects in between compiling rafts of useless “returns” for aforesaid support staff. They are the successors to truly integrated project teams, previously known as MoD(PE).
RqM – Requirement Managers. A collection of square pegs in round holes, paid lots to do a job previously carried out by civil servants at two grades lower. As few can tell you what they are meant to do, it would be wrong of me to speculate, although I understand most IPTs have thriving entertainment committees.
I hope this is illuminating!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Having just flicked through the latest AAC Newsletter at all the Ah photos, there does appear to be some form of wire cutter fitted.
The lower is fitted slightly forward of the cannon mount and the upper sits above the pilots head.
They do seem rather small, but are at least there, although you have to do some pretty accurate flying in order to catch it just right and not try and use the cannon, wheels or MR mast as the cutter.
Pics from UK Attack Helicopter Photography Gallery
As far as I am aware these are the only AAC a/c fitted with what appear to be wirecutters.
The lower is fitted slightly forward of the cannon mount and the upper sits above the pilots head.
They do seem rather small, but are at least there, although you have to do some pretty accurate flying in order to catch it just right and not try and use the cannon, wheels or MR mast as the cutter.
Pics from UK Attack Helicopter Photography Gallery
As far as I am aware these are the only AAC a/c fitted with what appear to be wirecutters.
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Archimedes - Guess you have me bang to rights. Too many big words - couldnt spell them all 
SiloeSid Thanks for your support
ALL Lets not get into a pi$$ing contest with each other. BOI's tend to have bigger dicks than most and are able to put most fires out. - Untill that tw&t Wr&££on gets hold of them that is. Then all is fair in love and war.
SiloeSid Thanks for your support
ALL Lets not get into a pi$$ing contest with each other. BOI's tend to have bigger dicks than most and are able to put most fires out. - Untill that tw&t Wr&££on gets hold of them that is. Then all is fair in love and war.
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Just checked out some pics and it appears that other than Apache, the RAF Merlin is the only Britmil helo equipped with wire cutters,for some unknown reason the RN version is not!
SS - actually the Apache has more wire-cutters than that. No matter where a wire hits the front of the aircraft it will be directed into one of a number of wirecutters thus ensuring that freedom reigns!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thanks for that ChristopherRobin, a little more information may have been nice.
I take it you'll be thinking of the Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS).
Made up of eleven deflectors and six cutter assemblies, the WSPS either steers the wires away from the aircraft, or guides them to the cutters. Deflectors are located around the TADS/PNVS, wiper assemblies, canopy, and the tail wheel. Wire cutters located between the TADS and PNVS turrets, the lower fuselage in front of the chain gun, on each leg of the main gear, and on the upper fuselage just forward of the rotor shaft.
The question now is, how thick a cable can you get away with flying through?
Have a good weekend y'all.
SS
I take it you'll be thinking of the Wire Strike Protection System (WSPS).
Made up of eleven deflectors and six cutter assemblies, the WSPS either steers the wires away from the aircraft, or guides them to the cutters. Deflectors are located around the TADS/PNVS, wiper assemblies, canopy, and the tail wheel. Wire cutters located between the TADS and PNVS turrets, the lower fuselage in front of the chain gun, on each leg of the main gear, and on the upper fuselage just forward of the rotor shaft.
The question now is, how thick a cable can you get away with flying through?
Have a good weekend y'all.
SS
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SilsoeSid.
Why don't you let the world know the wire thickness the Apache WSPS can cut? That way the nice people around the world, who happen to love Apache pilots, can make sure that they exceed that thickness when planning to catch one.
Some people don't know when to shut up.
Please don't tell me its on the open forum and can be picked up anywhere, it won't wash.
Why don't you let the world know the wire thickness the Apache WSPS can cut? That way the nice people around the world, who happen to love Apache pilots, can make sure that they exceed that thickness when planning to catch one.
Some people don't know when to shut up.
Please don't tell me its on the open forum and can be picked up anywhere, it won't wash.
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So is the Lynx really a widow maker...? is it safe to fly? would you get in one?
As has been mentioned on this post and countless others before, its record is actually very good considering it's time in service, role and amount of hours it's flown. I'm pretty sure there are far more 'unsafe' aircraft out there than the Lynx.
It would be interesting to hear what the experience or knowledge of certain posters are with the aircraft as opposed to finding 'Key Lynx Crashes' on news websites then posting them as an unbalanced 'fact' of the cab being a widow maker. Statistics are only of any relevance if they are put into a balanced context.
Mmmm, wg13_dummy;
WG-13 (Lynx) dummy (crash test)
As your name would suggest, perhaps my freind you are more onside that you would like us all to believe.?
WG-13 (Lynx) dummy (crash test)
As your name would suggest, perhaps my freind you are more onside that you would like us all to believe.?
It would be nice if not a little boring if people posted all the flying hours and dates that the Lynx flew without fault since it came into service.....but that’s not sensational enough I suppose.
Well said WG, the Lynx is indeed pretty much as safe as any other military helo, as the DASA stats clearly show.
I've looked at just about every Lynx accident over the years, and like most A/C accidents, the majority are human factors related, rather than airframe airworthiness or technical problems. I know that an argument can be made that human factors has a technical HMI component, but we have to accept that we are dealing with a cab designed back in the 1960's, so it simply isn't going to be as ergonomically acceptable as a modern A/C.
Let's not forget that Lynx is probably one of the most agile and maneuverable small cabs we've ever had, and as a consequence gets used in environments where other cabs simply wouldn't be able to cut it. It's hardly surprising, under these circumstances, that it has a higher than average incidence of CFIT accidents (including wire strikes).
Speculation about accidents is never clever, either from the perspective of the investigators trying to piece together unbiased reports or from that of the morale of crews and their next of kin. Quite why some feel the need to cause unecessary worry by rampant sensationalism is beyond me, especially when they purport to have some sense of allegiance to those whom they either serve with or have served with.
Suffice to say that the early evidence from the latest Mk7 accident does not seem to point to an aircraft technical problem. Neither was the wire strike accident earlier in the week. Let's just be thankful that both crews walked away without serious injury, and let the investigators get on and do their job.
VP
I've looked at just about every Lynx accident over the years, and like most A/C accidents, the majority are human factors related, rather than airframe airworthiness or technical problems. I know that an argument can be made that human factors has a technical HMI component, but we have to accept that we are dealing with a cab designed back in the 1960's, so it simply isn't going to be as ergonomically acceptable as a modern A/C.
Let's not forget that Lynx is probably one of the most agile and maneuverable small cabs we've ever had, and as a consequence gets used in environments where other cabs simply wouldn't be able to cut it. It's hardly surprising, under these circumstances, that it has a higher than average incidence of CFIT accidents (including wire strikes).
Speculation about accidents is never clever, either from the perspective of the investigators trying to piece together unbiased reports or from that of the morale of crews and their next of kin. Quite why some feel the need to cause unecessary worry by rampant sensationalism is beyond me, especially when they purport to have some sense of allegiance to those whom they either serve with or have served with.
Suffice to say that the early evidence from the latest Mk7 accident does not seem to point to an aircraft technical problem. Neither was the wire strike accident earlier in the week. Let's just be thankful that both crews walked away without serious injury, and let the investigators get on and do their job.
VP
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
owe ver chute;
Now that I have picked myself off the floor with the picture in my mind of those 'nice people' holding up poles with a wire between in order to catch an Apache, (maybe the infamous AAC moving goalposts 
),perhaps I can reply.
Do you honestly think that these people don't haven't minds of their own to be able to do what they do?
If you can find out how to build a nuclear weapon on the web in the public domain, I'm sure the thickness of cable an apache can cut through is low down in the search history, and a darned site less effective as a weapon against the west!
Next week, Pooh will be showing us how to catch an attack helicopter.
Please print out and colour in the uniform of the 'nice person' of your choice.
wg13_dummy;
I've obviously mixed you up with someone else,
Sorry.
And of course, if the SPTA incident didn't happen, we wouldn't be talking about this subject. So sensational stories do have their effectiveness.
Luckily no-one was injured here, but they have been in the past.
This has been brought up on the site of the 18th plural, hasn't it? So no need to re-cover retro fitting costs etc here.
over;
No they don't do they?
Why don't you let the world know the wire thickness the Apache WSPS can cut? That way the nice people around the world, who happen to love Apache pilots, can make sure that they exceed that thickness when planning to catch one.
),perhaps I can reply.Do you honestly think that these people don't haven't minds of their own to be able to do what they do?
Please don't tell me its on the open forum and can be picked up anywhere, it won't wash.
Next week, Pooh will be showing us how to catch an attack helicopter.
Please print out and colour in the uniform of the 'nice person' of your choice.
wg13_dummy;
I've obviously mixed you up with someone else,
Sorry.And of course, if the SPTA incident didn't happen, we wouldn't be talking about this subject. So sensational stories do have their effectiveness.
Luckily no-one was injured here, but they have been in the past.
This has been brought up on the site of the 18th plural, hasn't it? So no need to re-cover retro fitting costs etc here.
over;
Some people don't know when to shut up.
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Dont understand your logic SS??
Why drag up the 'facts' on page one of this thread? Are you suggesting the cab is dangerous to fly due to lack of maintainance/flawed design or because the crews cant handle the aircraft correctly?
Why don't you comment each time there is a Tornado/Harrier/Jag down thread?
I am rather confused with regard to your stance on the subject of the safety of the Lynx. Are you concerned for the safety of the crews and highlighting the fact to the open world or chipping in for the sake of argument?
I dunno!?!
And of course, if the SPTA incident didn't happen, we wouldn't be talking about this subject. So sensational stories do have their effectiveness.
Why don't you comment each time there is a Tornado/Harrier/Jag down thread?
I am rather confused with regard to your stance on the subject of the safety of the Lynx. Are you concerned for the safety of the crews and highlighting the fact to the open world or chipping in for the sake of argument?
I dunno!?!
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Well come on SS comment on the stats produced by DASA which I highlighted recently. Which shows that the Lynx is has a good if not better safety record than Gazelle or Sea King. No doubt you will put a spin on the facts. Ever thought of applying for Alister Cambells job?
More to the point, why doesn't SS first off check the facts about this accident (something he is anally retentive about most of the time with others)?
Whilst your at the checking of facts thing, why not go through that list of Lynx accidents you've posted and highlight how many were aircraft failings? To save you some trouble, I can confirm that well over half of them of them were not caused by aircraft technical faults.
As I've intimated on here before, SS, you are a has-been low achiever who has a massive chip on his shoulder. In your case this manifests itself as a need to seek attention on groups such as this (and the other one) to boost your own need to feel important.
Thankfully some of us don't have the same need, so can contribute here with a genuine desire to see common sense prevail.
VP
Whilst your at the checking of facts thing, why not go through that list of Lynx accidents you've posted and highlight how many were aircraft failings? To save you some trouble, I can confirm that well over half of them of them were not caused by aircraft technical faults.
As I've intimated on here before, SS, you are a has-been low achiever who has a massive chip on his shoulder. In your case this manifests itself as a need to seek attention on groups such as this (and the other one) to boost your own need to feel important.
Thankfully some of us don't have the same need, so can contribute here with a genuine desire to see common sense prevail.
VP
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
MReyn24050;
Of course I cannot argue with the stats you highlight, but may I suggest that you try and go to your nearest AAC Lynx/Gazelle unit and compare the size of Gazelle/Lynx incident signal folders!
Mmmmm, statistics.
Dummy;
Because Mreyn wanted the facts before comment.
I think you'll find it was hyd3failure who questioned maintainance standards when he said, "...AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices."
He has been asked to verify what he means by this, but no reply
Of course I'm not questioning handling abilities, but 'Lynx Bites'.
Mmmm, because I have never flown any one of them perhaps. 
Yes I am concerned about safety, as you should be and as for 'chipping in for the sake of an argument'.......We know each other right.
VP959;
I think you may be factually incorrect on that one. If you really do know me as you think you do, you will realise this.? As I have told you before, perhaps it stems from your own insecurity and envy of others.
If in doubt, resort to personal insults eh!
As you last post shows us I suppose!
Now, back to wirecutters, which is where the thread was going or was that not a provocative enough subject 
Back on the rails,
I\'m sure ir\'s easier to ambush an AH with a \'MANPAD\' than a length of HD wire held between 2 poles.
Then again if the poles weren\'t secure enough the cutters wouldn\'t cut it, which could just work.
But then again, we can always go back to the anti SS bandwagon!! Well, it is Friday night and the glass of cider has been consumed.
Having your own opinion doesn't hurt!
Well come on SS comment on the stats produced by DASA which I highlighted recently.
Mmmmm, statistics.
Dummy;
Why drag up the 'facts' on page one of this thread? Are you suggesting the cab is dangerous to fly due to lack of maintainance/flawed design or because the crews cant handle the aircraft correctly?
I think you'll find it was hyd3failure who questioned maintainance standards when he said, "...AAC Mk 7 and Mk9 which are very different to the Navy Mk 3 and Mk8 particularly with regards to Engineering standards and practices."
He has been asked to verify what he means by this, but no reply
Of course I'm not questioning handling abilities, but 'Lynx Bites'.
Why don't you comment each time there is a Tornado/Harrier/Jag down thread?
Yes I am concerned about safety, as you should be and as for 'chipping in for the sake of an argument'.......We know each other right.
VP959;
As I've intimated on here before, SS, you are a has-been low achiever who has a massive chip on his shoulder. In your case this manifests itself as a need to seek attention on groups such as this (and the other one) to boost your own need to feel important.
If in doubt, resort to personal insults eh!
Thankfully some of us don't have the same need, so can contribute here with a genuine desire to see common sense prevail.
Now, back to wirecutters, which is where the thread was going or was that not a provocative enough subject
Back on the rails,
I\'m sure ir\'s easier to ambush an AH with a \'MANPAD\' than a length of HD wire held between 2 poles.
Then again if the poles weren\'t secure enough the cutters wouldn\'t cut it, which could just work.
But then again, we can always go back to the anti SS bandwagon!! Well, it is Friday night and the glass of cider has been consumed.
Having your own opinion doesn't hurt!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 25th Feb 2005 at 22:00.
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I'll drop down to the SS way of dissecting the posts;
Apples and Bananas. The Gazelle has approx 6 moving parts (two of those being the bloke in the right hand seat!). If you had some time on the cab, you would surely know that the majority of those signals from the Lynx regard AFCS niggles. Not exactly a show stopper as you may know).
But it was you, SS, who yet again posted the 'conclusive evidence to the Lynx widow making properties' by posting the full and unequivocal list of Lynx accidents (from a media source!?!).
But the list of accidents posted by you included such mishandling occurrences without a clarifying caveat? Point to fit your argument that the cab is unsafe? Sensationalising possibly?
What makes you such an authority on the Lynx? Have you been a 'crash test dummy' via Lynx? I.e., crashed. The comparison is similar. Knowledge dispels fear.
I shall ask again, in what regard are you concerned about safety with the Lynx? Design, maint or lack of handling skills by crews? We do know each other and I am quite disappointed as I never saw this particular side of you.
I'm sure you can use google to find all the answers you need on the subject. Failing that, pop up to EGXD and ask the blokes who may want to make you a brew. If I were you, I wouldn’t hold your breath for too long though mate. Life may be brighter on the outside but its still dark and cosy on the inside.
I shall add an edit as SS just has!
I dont think its a campaign of anti SS. Its just that your posts are a bit 'different' in a way that Johnathan King had 'different' ideas. We know whats right, they know whats right, its a shame he didnt see it the same way! (banter, banter, banter).
Additional edit.
SS, can you find the details on t'internet regarding design criteria of thickness of wires that AH can cut? If not, then there is prob a reason for it. FOI is a good thing but sometimes it aint.
Of course I cannot argue with the stats you highlight, but may I suggest that you try and go to your nearest AAC Lynx/Gazelle unit and compare the size of Gazelle/Lynx incident signal folders!
I think you'll find it was hyd3failure who questioned maintenancestandards when he said.....
Of course I'm not questioning handling abilities, but 'Lynx Bites'.
Mmmm, because I have never flown any one of them perhaps.
Yes I am concerned about safety, as you should be and as for 'chipping in for the sake of an argument'.......We know each other right.
Now, back to wirecutters, which is where the thread was going or was that not a provocative enough subject
I shall add an edit as SS just has!
But then again, we can always go back to the anti SS bandwagon!! Well, it is Friday night and the glass of cider has been consumed.
(banter, banter, banter).Additional edit.
I'm sure ir's easier to ambush an AH with a 'MANPAD' than a length of HD wire held between 2 poles.