British engineering for the military
Oh dear oh dear. Can't tell talk from banter? Cheeeeel, Winston!
Of course Brutish industry has spawned excellent inventions and products in the past (Harrier, for example) - but it doesn't have an assumed place in the market without clear proof that its products meet either the specification or affordabilty criteria.
Couldn't agree more that procurement weenies often hide behind IWHIMTS (It Won't Happen In My Tour Syndrome) rather than being told that they're stuck with their project until they see it through to delivery. But then again, having just checked my diary for not that many years ago, I see that ISD for FSTA should have been achieved in 2004. But now it's going to be what - 2013......?
How is industry ever to cope with procurement-prattishness like that without having to mark up its products to a considerable degree to see it through the lean years of MoD vacillation, delay and obfuscation?
Pedigree Chum? No thanks - Lassie Meaty Chunks are preferred. Ask any Lancastrian B&B landlady!
Tha' knows..
Of course Brutish industry has spawned excellent inventions and products in the past (Harrier, for example) - but it doesn't have an assumed place in the market without clear proof that its products meet either the specification or affordabilty criteria.
Couldn't agree more that procurement weenies often hide behind IWHIMTS (It Won't Happen In My Tour Syndrome) rather than being told that they're stuck with their project until they see it through to delivery. But then again, having just checked my diary for not that many years ago, I see that ISD for FSTA should have been achieved in 2004. But now it's going to be what - 2013......?
How is industry ever to cope with procurement-prattishness like that without having to mark up its products to a considerable degree to see it through the lean years of MoD vacillation, delay and obfuscation?
Pedigree Chum? No thanks - Lassie Meaty Chunks are preferred. Ask any Lancastrian B&B landlady!
Tha' knows..
Last edited by BEagle; 22nd Sep 2004 at 17:43.
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Thanks JN, there are many wind-up merchants about and I shouldn’t have got involved.
The reason I did? I wanted to offer assistance to Joe.
I like to see initiative in students and I am happy to help as much as I can.
The problem Joe has, is that he asks for help and gets a bunch of
feeding him diatribe and, as an impressionable student, he may think that the some people offering their (rubbish) views on this topic actually know what they are talking about.
On a personal note, I am sick of the whingers and moaners that plague our nation, constantly complaining about most everything yet they have no answers or gumption to address the issues.
Rant over 4 final points from me:
1. My Dad is Professor of everything at NASA and says that British engineering is the best in the world.
2. Lassie meaty chunks make my whippets fart too much.
3. I also had a car I never looked after and it fell to bits – rusty vorsprungs all over der place.
4. Sorry Joe, you wanted help and suffered this lot.
The reason I did? I wanted to offer assistance to Joe.
I like to see initiative in students and I am happy to help as much as I can.
The problem Joe has, is that he asks for help and gets a bunch of
feeding him diatribe and, as an impressionable student, he may think that the some people offering their (rubbish) views on this topic actually know what they are talking about. On a personal note, I am sick of the whingers and moaners that plague our nation, constantly complaining about most everything yet they have no answers or gumption to address the issues.
Rant over 4 final points from me:
1. My Dad is Professor of everything at NASA and says that British engineering is the best in the world.
2. Lassie meaty chunks make my whippets fart too much.
3. I also had a car I never looked after and it fell to bits – rusty vorsprungs all over der place.
4. Sorry Joe, you wanted help and suffered this lot.
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In a nut shell?
its not our engineers who let the side down but management whose interest is more in self rather than product promotion and all too often have an overconfidence in their understanding of the task. Could it be that the accountant should go back to his books and the engineer be given the reigns back?.
OK - cars then. I've only owned 2 British ones, both MG Midgets. Rusted like crazy, carbs forever went out of balance and the build quality was appalling....they leaked like sieves. Then had an Italian one - that rusted as well but I actually made £50 over 12 months when I sold it. Then had a Manta, 2 Sciroccos, another 2 Mantas, 2 Preludes and now a Merc. Sorry, British engineering, but when a salesman once asked me (as I filled up my Scirrocco) "Had you considered the MG Maestro" I burst into fits of laughter. That was around the time that British Leyland came out with a square steering wheel for the awful Allegro...
Hifi &Electricals? Bush or Bang & Olufsen? No contest really - my B&O is still going strong about 25 years since I bought it.
Cameras? Canon, Olympus or.......what?
What actually is made in Britain these days rather than assembled from imported components? OK - self destructing cars like TVRs, I suppose......
Aston Martin? Not really. Now Jaguar is going to leave Browns Lane? Why - because its designs have insufficient appeal. Probably well made, but neither the X nor the S has much charisma. Even the XK-R has now been made ugly!
Our greatest designers have often been frustrated by poor marketing and managemnt, as Art Field commented. And as for so-called salesmen with poor product knowledge......
And why are all the current generation of Made-for-Britain DVB radio receivers so $odding ugly?
I've just been looking around my house and garage for anything Made In Britain. Have come up with 3 items:
1. Flymo lawnmower. Some clever engineering features - well done!
2. Real flame gas fire. Made by a company which then went bust......
3. The garage door. Hopefully not made by a helicopter builder from Somerset!
..and frankly that's it.
AL1. Bugger - have just discovered that the garage door was indeed built in the land of scrumpy. So it'll probably stop working in a year or so's time!
Hifi &Electricals? Bush or Bang & Olufsen? No contest really - my B&O is still going strong about 25 years since I bought it.
Cameras? Canon, Olympus or.......what?
What actually is made in Britain these days rather than assembled from imported components? OK - self destructing cars like TVRs, I suppose......
Aston Martin? Not really. Now Jaguar is going to leave Browns Lane? Why - because its designs have insufficient appeal. Probably well made, but neither the X nor the S has much charisma. Even the XK-R has now been made ugly!
Our greatest designers have often been frustrated by poor marketing and managemnt, as Art Field commented. And as for so-called salesmen with poor product knowledge......
And why are all the current generation of Made-for-Britain DVB radio receivers so $odding ugly?
I've just been looking around my house and garage for anything Made In Britain. Have come up with 3 items:
1. Flymo lawnmower. Some clever engineering features - well done!
2. Real flame gas fire. Made by a company which then went bust......
3. The garage door. Hopefully not made by a helicopter builder from Somerset!
..and frankly that's it.
AL1. Bugger - have just discovered that the garage door was indeed built in the land of scrumpy. So it'll probably stop working in a year or so's time!
Last edited by BEagle; 23rd Sep 2004 at 09:00.
British engineering's down, but not out.
Triumph still (again) make the World's best motorcycles, thanks to John Bloor.
Swindon's Hondas are superbly made.
Cowley can't make BMW Mini Coopers fast enough.
Lotus are still the ride/handling gurus for the motor industry, and the Elise is a superb little car.
Even Vauxhall still have a few great products, some of which are 'Made in England'. My wife's Tigra is better designed and better engineered than my Audi.
The retro LEC fridge in my kitchen is better than a SMEG at half the price.
Bush still make great radios, and make them in England, and I believe some Roberts radios are still made here. (If you want a nice looking DAB, BEagle, how about the digital version of the Roberts Revival?).
Aerospace is more difficult. BAE have some excellent engineers, but have no real imperative to offer competitive prices, nor to deliver on time, because they have no real competition. You have a monopoly supplier who are also a fully commercial company, for whom maximising shareholder value is more important than meeting their customers needs. With other UK defence suppliers to compete with, it might work, but as a monopoly supplier it would work better nationalised - removing the profit/shareholder motive and focusing effort on providing the right kit to the customer on spec and on time.
Free market economics only work in a competitive free market.
Triumph still (again) make the World's best motorcycles, thanks to John Bloor.
Swindon's Hondas are superbly made.
Cowley can't make BMW Mini Coopers fast enough.
Lotus are still the ride/handling gurus for the motor industry, and the Elise is a superb little car.
Even Vauxhall still have a few great products, some of which are 'Made in England'. My wife's Tigra is better designed and better engineered than my Audi.
The retro LEC fridge in my kitchen is better than a SMEG at half the price.
Bush still make great radios, and make them in England, and I believe some Roberts radios are still made here. (If you want a nice looking DAB, BEagle, how about the digital version of the Roberts Revival?).
Aerospace is more difficult. BAE have some excellent engineers, but have no real imperative to offer competitive prices, nor to deliver on time, because they have no real competition. You have a monopoly supplier who are also a fully commercial company, for whom maximising shareholder value is more important than meeting their customers needs. With other UK defence suppliers to compete with, it might work, but as a monopoly supplier it would work better nationalised - removing the profit/shareholder motive and focusing effort on providing the right kit to the customer on spec and on time.
Free market economics only work in a competitive free market.
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Coz he can!
But it's not uncommon is it? There's a factory somewhere in England churning out arrogant, insensitive f*kwits who end up in plum jobs.
Now there's a British success story.
But it's not uncommon is it? There's a factory somewhere in England churning out arrogant, insensitive f*kwits who end up in plum jobs.
Now there's a British success story.
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Not disagreeing with those in support of British industry, but I also would not necessarily shout too loudly about the Comet as an example of spectacular British design, especially with those large square windows it had...
JF, I completely agree that BAe get much stick as a result of those individuals who solely wish to remember BAe's foul ups; it is just as much the fault of those idiots who chose to let Italy, a country with very little experience of fbw design the system for Typhoon, at extorsionate cost. As a world leader in FBW system development at that time (and possibly still now), why did we allow Italy to develop such a critical system? Oh yes, got to give everyone a fair share of course!
JF, I completely agree that BAe get much stick as a result of those individuals who solely wish to remember BAe's foul ups; it is just as much the fault of those idiots who chose to let Italy, a country with very little experience of fbw design the system for Typhoon, at extorsionate cost. As a world leader in FBW system development at that time (and possibly still now), why did we allow Italy to develop such a critical system? Oh yes, got to give everyone a fair share of course!
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mbga9pgf
I take your point, but I believe it was Germany that had the FBW in the original carve up of work (and hence on the job training...)
One has to admire the national military/industrial/political strategy of the French during the 80s and 90s when they said they would do it and pay for it all themselves. Subs, Carriers, Aircraft, Weapons - the lot. Not to mention making Airbus happen.
JF
I take your point, but I believe it was Germany that had the FBW in the original carve up of work (and hence on the job training...)
One has to admire the national military/industrial/political strategy of the French during the 80s and 90s when they said they would do it and pay for it all themselves. Subs, Carriers, Aircraft, Weapons - the lot. Not to mention making Airbus happen.
JF
Last time I looked, FCS design responsibility for Typhoon was resident in EADS-D (Dasa as was) with a high level of BAE support. All part of the politics and gamesmanship that resulted from workshare based on procurement numbers.
What Italian bit of FBW were you concerned about?
T
Edited to say:
I see I missed being original by 5 minutes - story of my life!
What Italian bit of FBW were you concerned about?
T
Edited to say:
I see I missed being original by 5 minutes - story of my life!
Last edited by Tarnished; 23rd Sep 2004 at 19:56.
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My point was not over any personal particular concern over the FCS; I solely wished to point out that some projects have, at times, been shafted before pen has been put to paper. A rational design principle would result in those nations with specialist knowledge of a particular system designing that system, as opposed to the usual wranglings over "well, we could do with knowing how to build that bit, so lets give us a go".
As JF says, the French have done it in style and solo; designing next generation fighters, ships and a solid aircraft industry, in direct competition with Boeing - I have to say it is easy to bash a company for producing goods which take ages to reach full capability; yet without proper political backing (and im not talking about a few bob here and there to keep the workforce happy), our aircraft and more importantly aircraft systems industry is increasingly likely to go further down the toilet. If you want an example of true British multi-national aerospace engineering working togher look at MBDA... ASRAAM and Stormshadow; fantastic systems that, as I am led to believe, were designed and built mainly within our shores. Far more capable I would argue than their US counterparts. We are capable of it, but not while this government shys away from what is required.
As JF says, the French have done it in style and solo; designing next generation fighters, ships and a solid aircraft industry, in direct competition with Boeing - I have to say it is easy to bash a company for producing goods which take ages to reach full capability; yet without proper political backing (and im not talking about a few bob here and there to keep the workforce happy), our aircraft and more importantly aircraft systems industry is increasingly likely to go further down the toilet. If you want an example of true British multi-national aerospace engineering working togher look at MBDA... ASRAAM and Stormshadow; fantastic systems that, as I am led to believe, were designed and built mainly within our shores. Far more capable I would argue than their US counterparts. We are capable of it, but not while this government shys away from what is required.
"British Management" is an oxymoron.
Had one a while ago paid over $250,000 per annum who said "OK chaps, my management style is suck it and see. If one thing doesn't work I'll try something else".
Normally for $250,000 you actually have to know how to manage.
British engineeers are great - witness the Range Rover, however British Management then sat on its hands for 20 years while the rest of the world caught up. They did the same with the mini.
Had one a while ago paid over $250,000 per annum who said "OK chaps, my management style is suck it and see. If one thing doesn't work I'll try something else".
Normally for $250,000 you actually have to know how to manage.
British engineeers are great - witness the Range Rover, however British Management then sat on its hands for 20 years while the rest of the world caught up. They did the same with the mini.
Must inject a slight word of caution on the "French did it alone" idea.
I think it more correct to say that they know what they want to do with their wonder jet to make it comparable withTyphoon if they can get an export customer to foot the bill.
To integrate all these system of systems and certify them to internationally agreed standards is a huge and expensive task. Sure you can do it on the cheap but not if "product liability" and "duty of care" are part of your culture and vocabulary.
Furthermore, achieving this with "acceptable pilot workload" adds another dimension altogether.
Trust me I know
T
I think it more correct to say that they know what they want to do with their wonder jet to make it comparable withTyphoon if they can get an export customer to foot the bill.
To integrate all these system of systems and certify them to internationally agreed standards is a huge and expensive task. Sure you can do it on the cheap but not if "product liability" and "duty of care" are part of your culture and vocabulary.
Furthermore, achieving this with "acceptable pilot workload" adds another dimension altogether.
Trust me I know
T
