Iraq - is there ANY hope?!?
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We can sit here scoring points off each other all day, which is not my intention at all. If you are an ex-squaddie, which from you profile you appear to be surely all the little inconsistancies don’t add up to intelligent scrutiny.Circumstantial evidence is still evidence?
The point about bedfords was the QLR did not use them! The pictures are claimed to be of the QLR on patrol. Not 14 sigs etc, and I agree there will be bedfords in theatre, that was not the point. The supposed soldier in question says they used the same trucks all the time and that was in the back of one. Well they are not bedfords in the QLR. So how can it be in the back of a QLR truck? The question has been asked and the mirror cannot answer it satisfactorily. Some of the other points I think are crap as well but too much is just not right for this to convice me they are anything other than faked/staged.
At least we agree that it is something that has all gone horribly wrong. I find it difficult to believe this sort of bahaviour can take place without more people being aware of it and taking action.
Anyway moving on I see the boys over on the other board have made it into todays Times on the subject. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...097504,00.html it also raises wider questions about the Military, morale and funding etc
Excerpt of the full article. Copyright Libby Purves/ The Times etc…
The soldiers’ own voices, mournful and ashamed, are the last set which I would offer you. If the first voice said “Westerners abuse Arabs” and the second “Armies are brutal”, the soldiers’ voice has a simpler message: “Men are fallible.” If you follow the army rumour website (arrse.co.uk) it is usually full of wicked jokes and gung-ho cynicism: my favourite strand was the evil suggestion that overseas personnel, who at an election may name any UK constituency as their likely base, should name Sedgefield and get the PM out. When the American abuse pictures appeared, there was indignation and the occasional laddish joke: one long thoughtful posting ends “. . . and to add insult to injury, the bird who is tormenting them is a right moose”. But this week, with the British pictures out, the tone is quieter, heavy with disgust and shame. Listen:
“Really hope it isn’t true . . . thank God Mike Jackson didn’t talk a load of crap, spin it and blame the media . . . ****e happens in any walk of life, I would like to think we are better than that . . . bad apple . . . absolutely stomach churning, heads need to roll right the way up the chain of command if this is true . . . I hope all those involved get beasted out of sight . . . whether these prisoners are murderers, terrorists or not, those in charge had a duty of care . . . we are meant to be a disciplined force not a bunch of cowboys . . . why didn’t the guy with the camera stop it happening? . . . .**** this, I’m going for a morose beer somewhere.”
Of all the cries — Westerners hate Arabs, all war is wrong, armies are beasts — I prefer that soldier’s simple conclusion. ****e happens. Men are fallible. We struggle to be better. May the Muslim world, please God or Allah, have the grace to believe that.
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The point about bedfords was the QLR did not use them! The pictures are claimed to be of the QLR on patrol. Not 14 sigs etc, and I agree there will be bedfords in theatre, that was not the point. The supposed soldier in question says they used the same trucks all the time and that was in the back of one. Well they are not bedfords in the QLR. So how can it be in the back of a QLR truck? The question has been asked and the mirror cannot answer it satisfactorily. Some of the other points I think are crap as well but too much is just not right for this to convice me they are anything other than faked/staged.
At least we agree that it is something that has all gone horribly wrong. I find it difficult to believe this sort of bahaviour can take place without more people being aware of it and taking action.
Anyway moving on I see the boys over on the other board have made it into todays Times on the subject. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...097504,00.html it also raises wider questions about the Military, morale and funding etc
Excerpt of the full article. Copyright Libby Purves/ The Times etc…
The soldiers’ own voices, mournful and ashamed, are the last set which I would offer you. If the first voice said “Westerners abuse Arabs” and the second “Armies are brutal”, the soldiers’ voice has a simpler message: “Men are fallible.” If you follow the army rumour website (arrse.co.uk) it is usually full of wicked jokes and gung-ho cynicism: my favourite strand was the evil suggestion that overseas personnel, who at an election may name any UK constituency as their likely base, should name Sedgefield and get the PM out. When the American abuse pictures appeared, there was indignation and the occasional laddish joke: one long thoughtful posting ends “. . . and to add insult to injury, the bird who is tormenting them is a right moose”. But this week, with the British pictures out, the tone is quieter, heavy with disgust and shame. Listen:
“Really hope it isn’t true . . . thank God Mike Jackson didn’t talk a load of crap, spin it and blame the media . . . ****e happens in any walk of life, I would like to think we are better than that . . . bad apple . . . absolutely stomach churning, heads need to roll right the way up the chain of command if this is true . . . I hope all those involved get beasted out of sight . . . whether these prisoners are murderers, terrorists or not, those in charge had a duty of care . . . we are meant to be a disciplined force not a bunch of cowboys . . . why didn’t the guy with the camera stop it happening? . . . .**** this, I’m going for a morose beer somewhere.”
Of all the cries — Westerners hate Arabs, all war is wrong, armies are beasts — I prefer that soldier’s simple conclusion. ****e happens. Men are fallible. We struggle to be better. May the Muslim world, please God or Allah, have the grace to believe that.
Join the Debate at [email protected]
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If you are an ex-squaddie, which from you profile you appear to be surely all the little inconsistancies don’t add up to intelligent scrutiny.
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence?
I'll ask Flying Lawer on that one, never seemed to work for Frost though!
If it is the case though, I think we'd better keep watching the skies.
Lets see what is said in Parliament this afternoon. (Not about the martians! But you never know!)
Thanks for the offer, but i won't be contacting the press
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This whole episode is disgusting from start to finish. I'm not talking about the allegations of brutality - they will be investigated and the truth will out in the end.
What I find wholly reprehensible is that a newspaper editor feels free to publish such damaging unproven cr*p without giving a second thought to the consequences. I'd like to take Morgan and his bunch of anti-war cronies out to Iraq and place him with the guys on the front line. Those guys (and gals) who daily risk their lives to give the Iraqi people a chance of normal life. By normal life I mean water, electricity and the day to day existance without fear of being rounded up, imprisoned, tortured and executed because they had the temerity to criticise the regime that dominated their every waking moment.
I'm not going to get into the debate about the degree of civilisation practised by the indigenous population of the ME. But no matter who they are, they are still entitled to the basics of life as human beings. The Brit Forces in Southern Iraq have done a fabulous job in winning over the locals and providing their basic essentials. There are factions hell bent on trying to turn the locals against the Coalition Forces by undoing their good works (blowing up newly-installed water systems, pylons, pipelines, etc) and pillocks like Morgan are feeding them additional help to achieve their aims. If just one British Serviceman is hurt as a result of the Daily Mirror irresponsibility, then the paper should be hounded to bankrupcy.
I, for one, will never ever buy that rag as long as I live. I also decline to comment on SilsoeSid's posts - I support our guys 100%.
What I find wholly reprehensible is that a newspaper editor feels free to publish such damaging unproven cr*p without giving a second thought to the consequences. I'd like to take Morgan and his bunch of anti-war cronies out to Iraq and place him with the guys on the front line. Those guys (and gals) who daily risk their lives to give the Iraqi people a chance of normal life. By normal life I mean water, electricity and the day to day existance without fear of being rounded up, imprisoned, tortured and executed because they had the temerity to criticise the regime that dominated their every waking moment.
I'm not going to get into the debate about the degree of civilisation practised by the indigenous population of the ME. But no matter who they are, they are still entitled to the basics of life as human beings. The Brit Forces in Southern Iraq have done a fabulous job in winning over the locals and providing their basic essentials. There are factions hell bent on trying to turn the locals against the Coalition Forces by undoing their good works (blowing up newly-installed water systems, pylons, pipelines, etc) and pillocks like Morgan are feeding them additional help to achieve their aims. If just one British Serviceman is hurt as a result of the Daily Mirror irresponsibility, then the paper should be hounded to bankrupcy.
I, for one, will never ever buy that rag as long as I live. I also decline to comment on SilsoeSid's posts - I support our guys 100%.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I also support 'our boys' 100%, I haven't said otherwise.
I feel you won't comment on my answers to the fake pictures because you also know, if you have served/are serving, that what I say makes sense.
If you say otherwise, you must be one of the few who has been
told;
"If you don't tie your laces in a way that the gurkhas will be able to recognise you, you will be charged."
"You will also be charged if you are found with a webbing pouch undone."
or;
You have never taken a sling off a rifle/SA80.
Never seen a sandbag used as a hood, hence the phrase bagged and tagged! (not hooded and cuffed!)
Never used the string ties at the bottom of your combat trousers when your elastics have gone missing/broken.
Never aquired a floppy hat and worn it when it would make life a bit more comfortable. (Is sunburn still a self inflicted wound!)
Never encountered a badge shortage or been on exercise/ops where you are told to sanatise yourself.
Never taken care of your personal hygene/nails.
Always maintained a squaddie physique of bulging muscles.
I think thats enough to make this point
I say again;
The arguments to substantiate that they are fakes don't stand up, IMHO.
I reckon they are trophy photographs, set up for a good story in the NAAFI back home, and it's all gone horribly wrong.
I believe man has set foot on the moon, however I can also prove that those photos are faked! HOWZAT!!
Guess I'd better repeat his aswell for the hard of reading;
I also support 'our boys' 100%, I haven't said otherwise.
I feel you won't comment on my answers to the fake pictures because you also know, if you have served/are serving, that what I say makes sense.
If you say otherwise, you must be one of the few who has been
told;
"If you don't tie your laces in a way that the gurkhas will be able to recognise you, you will be charged."
"You will also be charged if you are found with a webbing pouch undone."
or;
You have never taken a sling off a rifle/SA80.
Never seen a sandbag used as a hood, hence the phrase bagged and tagged! (not hooded and cuffed!)
Never used the string ties at the bottom of your combat trousers when your elastics have gone missing/broken.
Never aquired a floppy hat and worn it when it would make life a bit more comfortable. (Is sunburn still a self inflicted wound!)
Never encountered a badge shortage or been on exercise/ops where you are told to sanatise yourself.
Never taken care of your personal hygene/nails.
Always maintained a squaddie physique of bulging muscles.
I think thats enough to make this point
I say again;
The arguments to substantiate that they are fakes don't stand up, IMHO.
I reckon they are trophy photographs, set up for a good story in the NAAFI back home, and it's all gone horribly wrong.
I believe man has set foot on the moon, however I can also prove that those photos are faked! HOWZAT!!
Guess I'd better repeat his aswell for the hard of reading;
I also support 'our boys' 100%, I haven't said otherwise.
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An intelligent a reasoned reply from SS. I wasn’t going to bother replying but it is a slow morning at the office.
Your reply was not wasted just wrong on some counts. An example as you don’t seem able to figure things out and apply logic by yourself.
You clearly haven’t even seen the photos. Where in the pictures are the trousers tied with the cord at the bottom. The consistant point made all over has been the fact they are tucked in to the boots. It doesn’t even look like they are tied with the cord. But you seem to explain the fact they are clearly tucked into boots and not held up with elastics, as is common practice, by saying they are tied by the cord at the bottom. Obviously your levels of reading and comprehension need some work.
The obvious point, although not to you it seems, was that if something looks wrong you then ask pertinent questions about it. A bit like the bedford thing, which you are able to explain away by the fact that another unit has that type of trucks in theatre. As I said before read what I actually said not what you continually think I said. Another example of your strange reading skills:
Never asked you to go to the press, merely pointed out that others had been quoted in it. Do you actually read posts before replying?
I was hoping by pointing a few things out for you to get you to start asking the right questions about things that are obviously not right with the photos. Instead you get all out of shape and start waffling some crap about martians because you cant take the time to think for yourself.
You still seem a bit too slow to see that all the little inconsistancies, which on their own mean nothing, added up raises questions. The fact you believe anything that comes from a tabloid like the Mirror should have warned me really.
You’re not a fishead are you? You appear to be as thick as one.
If you are an ex-squaddie, which from you profile you appear to be surely all the little inconsistancies don’t add up to intelligent scrutiny.
My last post was wasted on you then
My last post was wasted on you then
You clearly haven’t even seen the photos. Where in the pictures are the trousers tied with the cord at the bottom. The consistant point made all over has been the fact they are tucked in to the boots. It doesn’t even look like they are tied with the cord. But you seem to explain the fact they are clearly tucked into boots and not held up with elastics, as is common practice, by saying they are tied by the cord at the bottom. Obviously your levels of reading and comprehension need some work.
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence?
Crikey,and after watching all those crime dramas, I thought circumstantial evidence never stood up in court. (Without evidence, which didn't make it circumstantial anymore!)
Crikey,and after watching all those crime dramas, I thought circumstantial evidence never stood up in court. (Without evidence, which didn't make it circumstantial anymore!)
Thanks for the offer, but i won't be contacting the press
I was hoping by pointing a few things out for you to get you to start asking the right questions about things that are obviously not right with the photos. Instead you get all out of shape and start waffling some crap about martians because you cant take the time to think for yourself.
You still seem a bit too slow to see that all the little inconsistancies, which on their own mean nothing, added up raises questions. The fact you believe anything that comes from a tabloid like the Mirror should have warned me really.
You’re not a fishead are you? You appear to be as thick as one.
As a civvy, I find it a tad shocking that at least six Iraqis are acknowledged to have died in British custody in Iraq.
The Iraqis managed not to kill any of their UK prisoners back in '91 despite quite deliberately engaging in the kind of beatings and low-level torture that we supposedly don't do, though I suppose the number of prisoners they had was tiny.
Before anyone leaps up warning everyone that I'm a journo on a fishing expedition, let me do it, and clarify exactly what I am fishing for:
which is - Some reassurance that six deaths in custody in these circumstances is normal, entirely to be expected, and is no cause for concern.
(I believe the Yanks have killed 26 of theirs!)
The Iraqis managed not to kill any of their UK prisoners back in '91 despite quite deliberately engaging in the kind of beatings and low-level torture that we supposedly don't do, though I suppose the number of prisoners they had was tiny.
Before anyone leaps up warning everyone that I'm a journo on a fishing expedition, let me do it, and clarify exactly what I am fishing for:
which is - Some reassurance that six deaths in custody in these circumstances is normal, entirely to be expected, and is no cause for concern.
(I believe the Yanks have killed 26 of theirs!)
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Jacko
Your sentiments are shared by the vast majority of us - we do hope all the questions are answered in the same way that (the media) eventually exonerated Tim Collins.
(But not until the mud slinging at a tough, honourable soldier had spread enough doubt with only minimal evidence and the word of an American bleeding heart with an axe to grind; recognise the scenario with the gutter reporting style of the Mirror ?)
By all means, ask pertinent questions about any perceived wrongdoing but at least do the honourable majority the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt until the evidence has been analysed and the truth found . Also ask how many Iraqis have been assaulted by other Iraqis in captivity by the way
Your sentiments are shared by the vast majority of us - we do hope all the questions are answered in the same way that (the media) eventually exonerated Tim Collins.
(But not until the mud slinging at a tough, honourable soldier had spread enough doubt with only minimal evidence and the word of an American bleeding heart with an axe to grind; recognise the scenario with the gutter reporting style of the Mirror ?)
By all means, ask pertinent questions about any perceived wrongdoing but at least do the honourable majority the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt until the evidence has been analysed and the truth found . Also ask how many Iraqis have been assaulted by other Iraqis in captivity by the way
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Vortex,
The boot issue is explained by the boots not being fully done up.
If the trousers were done up with the cord, then the weight of the trousers would make it look as if they were not done up with anything, but merely tucked in. The type of trousers are quite baggy at the bottom believe it or not and not known for being in the drainpipe fashion. Even with elastics, and the boot not fully done up the appearance would be similar.
The statement about the vehicle was, that the type of vehicle, Bedford, has not been in theatre, which it clearly has.
So when you said;
Thats not asking me to join the debate? Mmmmm
Something only looks wrong when it is wrong. To an unknowing civi, these points brought out to PROVE these pics are fake make sense in a way, because the press has told them so.
However any serviceman/ex-serviceman will be able to spot these things in a different light because of experience and realise that these things can be explained.
Thanks for the insult, makes your case so much stonger.
The martian photo, as you haven't realised, highlights that I too believe that photos aren't always what they seem to be.
According to your logic;
The photo was taken on Earth
You can clearly see a space craft.
There are two martians visible.
These martians are green.
They wish to surrender/negotiate, hence white flag.
Therefore, green Martians have visited Earth and wish to talk. They have the technology to visit us and therefore may well be more intelligent
I keep knocking, but there doesn't seem to be anyone at home!
The boot issue is explained by the boots not being fully done up.
If the trousers were done up with the cord, then the weight of the trousers would make it look as if they were not done up with anything, but merely tucked in. The type of trousers are quite baggy at the bottom believe it or not and not known for being in the drainpipe fashion. Even with elastics, and the boot not fully done up the appearance would be similar.
The statement about the vehicle was, that the type of vehicle, Bedford, has not been in theatre, which it clearly has.
So when you said;
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Something only looks wrong when it is wrong. To an unknowing civi, these points brought out to PROVE these pics are fake make sense in a way, because the press has told them so.
However any serviceman/ex-serviceman will be able to spot these things in a different light because of experience and realise that these things can be explained.
Thanks for the insult, makes your case so much stonger.
The martian photo, as you haven't realised, highlights that I too believe that photos aren't always what they seem to be.
According to your logic;
The photo was taken on Earth
You can clearly see a space craft.
There are two martians visible.
These martians are green.
They wish to surrender/negotiate, hence white flag.
Therefore, green Martians have visited Earth and wish to talk. They have the technology to visit us and therefore may well be more intelligent
I keep knocking, but there doesn't seem to be anyone at home!
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The dangers of cut and paste.I think the inconsistencies which on their own can be explained. The fact there are so many causes me to err on the side of caution rather than just dismiss them as you have.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree and move on.
I should perhaps clarify that while I am a bit of a liberal, I don't entirely disapprove of taking a fairly robust line with prisoners who are suspected of being terrorists (for example) and I don't have a particular problem with some of the humiliations shown in the photos (though the fact that they were photographed and publicised is clearly hugely damaging). In my simplistic mind, there's a huge difference between hooding people, naked, standing them in stress positions, humiliating them and the like, and actually administering beatings, breaking jaws, knocking teeth out, raping them with broomsticks and killing them. I suspect that all are against the spirit of the Geneva Convention, but in my mind there is a difference between humiliation and brutality.
Moreover, there does seem to be a danger that some of the things done to humiliate these prisoners does far more damage to those administering them.....
Moreover, there does seem to be a danger that some of the things done to humiliate these prisoners does far more damage to those administering them.....
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I agree with jacko, a certain tough line has to be taken with prisoners. If you are just going to be nice to them they are hardly likely to tell you anything usefull, nothing to fear is there. But a line must obviously be drawn somewhere.
I am curious to know exactly what is allowed under the GC? Been 8 years since I left and I simply can’t remember. I don’t believe hooding is a problem. Not sure about stripping naked for interrogation but I seem to remember that was allowed.
So who has the low-down?
I am curious to know exactly what is allowed under the GC? Been 8 years since I left and I simply can’t remember. I don’t believe hooding is a problem. Not sure about stripping naked for interrogation but I seem to remember that was allowed.
So who has the low-down?
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I wonder how often newspaper editors such as Morgan, when offered photos and stories such as these, think, 'Because of the obvious security, morale, morality and legal issues here, I will take this stuff to MoD first and give them a reasonable chance to investigate/refute/confirm the allegations before I publish them in my sweaty little publication.'
Jacko, you must know how their minds work, so what is the answer?
Jacko, you must know how their minds work, so what is the answer?
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Some extracts from the GC 111 relevant to treatment of POWs:
Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
Art 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.
Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.
Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
Art 14. Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour.
Art 17. Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
Art 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.
Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.
Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
Art 14. Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour.
Art 17. Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
Guys, regarding te GCs
They detail "rules" but what are the remedies in the event of a violation, who has juristiction? especially in the case of "occupying powers" as is now the case in Iraq?
They detail "rules" but what are the remedies in the event of a violation, who has juristiction? especially in the case of "occupying powers" as is now the case in Iraq?
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The jurisdiction and the remedy lies with the offending party:
Art 129. The High Contracting Parties undertake to enact any legislation necessary to provide effective penal sanctions for persons committing, or ordering to be committed, any of the grave breaches of the present Convention defined in the following Article.
Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed. or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts. It may also, if it prefers, and in accordance with the provisions of its own legislation, hand such persons over for trial to another High Contracting Party concerned, provided such High Contracting Party has made out a prima facie case.
Each High Contracting Party shall take measures necessary for the suppression of all acts contrary to the provisions of the present Convention other than the grave breaches defined in the following Article.
In all circumstances, the accused persons shall benefit by safeguards of proper trial and defence, which shall not be less favourable than those provided by Article 105 and those following of the present Convention.
Art 130. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention.
Art 131. No High Contracting Party shall be allowed to absolve itself or any other High Contracting Party of any liability incurred by itself or by another High Contracting Party in respect of breaches referred to in the preceding Article.
Art 132. At the request of a Party to the conflict, an enquiry shall be instituted, in a manner to be decided between the interested Parties, concerning any alleged violation of the Convention.
If agreement has not been reached concerning the procedure for the enquiry, the Parties should agree on the choice of an umpire who will decide upon the procedure to be followed.
Once the violation has been established, the Parties to the conflict shall put an end to it and shall repress it with the least possible delay.
Art 129. The High Contracting Parties undertake to enact any legislation necessary to provide effective penal sanctions for persons committing, or ordering to be committed, any of the grave breaches of the present Convention defined in the following Article.
Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed. or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts. It may also, if it prefers, and in accordance with the provisions of its own legislation, hand such persons over for trial to another High Contracting Party concerned, provided such High Contracting Party has made out a prima facie case.
Each High Contracting Party shall take measures necessary for the suppression of all acts contrary to the provisions of the present Convention other than the grave breaches defined in the following Article.
In all circumstances, the accused persons shall benefit by safeguards of proper trial and defence, which shall not be less favourable than those provided by Article 105 and those following of the present Convention.
Art 130. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention.
Art 131. No High Contracting Party shall be allowed to absolve itself or any other High Contracting Party of any liability incurred by itself or by another High Contracting Party in respect of breaches referred to in the preceding Article.
Art 132. At the request of a Party to the conflict, an enquiry shall be instituted, in a manner to be decided between the interested Parties, concerning any alleged violation of the Convention.
If agreement has not been reached concerning the procedure for the enquiry, the Parties should agree on the choice of an umpire who will decide upon the procedure to be followed.
Once the violation has been established, the Parties to the conflict shall put an end to it and shall repress it with the least possible delay.
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We are signatories to the Convention and are therefore bound by all its rules and conditions.
SiloeSid, clearly you believe the photographs to be real or you are just stirring it. I'm not going to waste any more time in arguing the case - it's pointless. The damage is done, whatever the case.
I will await the investigation at whatever level it is held. But I will be mad as hell if Morgan and his bunch hide behind the journalistic 'protecting their sources' arguement. I want those that gave those photographs to the newspaper identified and testifying before the inquiry.
SiloeSid, clearly you believe the photographs to be real or you are just stirring it. I'm not going to waste any more time in arguing the case - it's pointless. The damage is done, whatever the case.
I will await the investigation at whatever level it is held. But I will be mad as hell if Morgan and his bunch hide behind the journalistic 'protecting their sources' arguement. I want those that gave those photographs to the newspaper identified and testifying before the inquiry.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
FJJP,
To clear up my viewpoint, as I've mentioned previously;
The arguments to 'substantiate' that they are fakes don't stand up, IMHO.
I reckon they are set up for a good story in the NAAFI back home, or taken to backup a story, and it's all gone horribly wrong. I don't think that these are the actual 'torture' pictures, (if there are any).
SS
To clear up my viewpoint, as I've mentioned previously;
The arguments to 'substantiate' that they are fakes don't stand up, IMHO.
I reckon they are set up for a good story in the NAAFI back home, or taken to backup a story, and it's all gone horribly wrong. I don't think that these are the actual 'torture' pictures, (if there are any).
SS
If the recent allegations are found to be true, a much deeper investigation must take place. The UK Armed Forces must be purged of all those who consider routine violence against captives to be in any way acceptable.
The stories emerging of what these sadistic thugs have been up to under the guise of 'tactical questioning' are horrific. Quite clearly such acts contravene the Geneva convention and those who have perpetrated them are guilty of war crimes and should be punished accordingly.
Any views from the Cornish camping club or the Bedfordshire Disco queens....??
The stories emerging of what these sadistic thugs have been up to under the guise of 'tactical questioning' are horrific. Quite clearly such acts contravene the Geneva convention and those who have perpetrated them are guilty of war crimes and should be punished accordingly.
Any views from the Cornish camping club or the Bedfordshire Disco queens....??
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
It seems now that the photographs will make no difference, whether faked or not. Testimony by eyewitnesses will have more power than a printed image.
All those who have attended a CSRO, RtoI or Conduct after Capture course will know what goes on and what would be the likely outcome with units giving in house briefings/courses.
A little knowledge is dangerous, as proved by the actions of a few and as such has totally undermined all the hard work, perseverance and dedication to duty that has gone on post Op Telic.
The photos have had their day and I think that has now exhausted itself, Wait now for the future revelations and because of the ATD LOAC briefings, there aren't many legs around to stand on.
Interesting to see how far uphill the sh$t will run :wink:
Sorry you wasted your time SS, but we do not like giving houseroom to that particular link
All those who have attended a CSRO, RtoI or Conduct after Capture course will know what goes on and what would be the likely outcome with units giving in house briefings/courses.
A little knowledge is dangerous, as proved by the actions of a few and as such has totally undermined all the hard work, perseverance and dedication to duty that has gone on post Op Telic.
The photos have had their day and I think that has now exhausted itself, Wait now for the future revelations and because of the ATD LOAC briefings, there aren't many legs around to stand on.
Interesting to see how far uphill the sh$t will run :wink:
Sorry you wasted your time SS, but we do not like giving houseroom to that particular link
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Good call on the link to arrse Siloesid.
Not quite sure which side of the fence your are sitting on though?
It appears your hard work was generated by yourself.
And I think your mention of the Moon landing photos being faked and a huge conspiracy regarding that may well have earned you the position of pick up driving trailer trash. Good move.
Not quite sure which side of the fence your are sitting on though?
It appears your hard work was generated by yourself.
And I think your mention of the Moon landing photos being faked and a huge conspiracy regarding that may well have earned you the position of pick up driving trailer trash. Good move.
Last edited by The Monk; 7th May 2004 at 13:49.