Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
"These have required the deployment of frigates and destroyers"
Correct - but as you are aware some people are trailing CUTTING the number of both as the RN can't man the whole fleet now they have 2 carriers
Correct - but as you are aware some people are trailing CUTTING the number of both as the RN can't man the whole fleet now they have 2 carriers
The reason for the inability to crew these ships is much more complex than saying because the RN has two large aircraft carriers.
The RN has a huge problem retaining people. That has nothing to do with carriers and everything to do with Conditions of Service. I work with the RN every day, my son is a serving RN engineer so I think I may be reasonably qualified to comment.
In the job I do, I have seen multiple CPO engineers up and leave at the 15-19 year point. Some of which have been highly motivated individuals who the RN should be actively trying to retain, but the apathy that comes from the lower end of the leadership scale (round and about SO2 level) is breathtaking.
Another factor is the change in pensions. Staying till the 22 year point is no longer worth it, as there is no benefit; especially with a vibrant job market on the outside. When these changes were made, it sent a signal to many (me included) and leaving was absolutely the right thing to do.
Any Service is only as good as its people, leaders should be aware of this.
But don’t blame the Aircraft Carriers, the rot set in long before they were on the scene.
The RN has a huge problem retaining people. That has nothing to do with carriers and everything to do with Conditions of Service. I work with the RN every day, my son is a serving RN engineer so I think I may be reasonably qualified to comment.
In the job I do, I have seen multiple CPO engineers up and leave at the 15-19 year point. Some of which have been highly motivated individuals who the RN should be actively trying to retain, but the apathy that comes from the lower end of the leadership scale (round and about SO2 level) is breathtaking.
Another factor is the change in pensions. Staying till the 22 year point is no longer worth it, as there is no benefit; especially with a vibrant job market on the outside. When these changes were made, it sent a signal to many (me included) and leaving was absolutely the right thing to do.
Any Service is only as good as its people, leaders should be aware of this.
But don’t blame the Aircraft Carriers, the rot set in long before they were on the scene.
Thread Starter
Recruiting has been stepped up, and more recruits are being trained than before.
The base is meeting a surge in demand to join the Fleet due to Covid and plans to grow the Navy by 3,000 sailors over the next three years, starting with 1,000 extra personnel in 2021.
WEBF - for years on the Carrier thread you've rubbished anyone who suggested that the RN wouldn't have enough manpower to run the Carriers AND the rest of the surface fleet.
Now that it has come to pass and they're floating the idea of cutting the destroyer/frigate fleet to 15 which would be "fully crewed"
"Sir Humphrey's Thin Pinstriped Line.... https://tinyurl.com/3s5bnvtv To Boldly Sail No More - Is There a Case for Scrapping Royal Navy Frigates?" by ORAC
your're still rubbishing anyone who suggests it may happen
Now that it has come to pass and they're floating the idea of cutting the destroyer/frigate fleet to 15 which would be "fully crewed"
"Sir Humphrey's Thin Pinstriped Line.... https://tinyurl.com/3s5bnvtv To Boldly Sail No More - Is There a Case for Scrapping Royal Navy Frigates?" by ORAC
your're still rubbishing anyone who suggests it may happen
A personal opinion, they probably couldn't argue the case, but the Government needs to increase defence spending to something closer to 1990 level. On top of that, the approach to and method of recruitment needs to go back to basics. They might improve the retention rate and who knows, the standing ambitions of maintaining and operating what little we now have might just be possible.
FB
FB
Thread Starter
WEBF - for years on the Carrier thread you've rubbished anyone who suggested that the RN wouldn't have enough manpower to run the Carriers AND the rest of the surface fleet.
Now that it has come to pass and they're floating the idea of cutting the destroyer/frigate fleet to 15 which would be "fully crewed"
"Sir Humphrey's Thin Pinstriped Line.... https://tinyurl.com/3s5bnvtv To Boldly Sail No More - Is There a Case for Scrapping Royal Navy Frigates?" by ORAC
your're still rubbishing anyone who suggests it may happen
Now that it has come to pass and they're floating the idea of cutting the destroyer/frigate fleet to 15 which would be "fully crewed"
"Sir Humphrey's Thin Pinstriped Line.... https://tinyurl.com/3s5bnvtv To Boldly Sail No More - Is There a Case for Scrapping Royal Navy Frigates?" by ORAC
your're still rubbishing anyone who suggests it may happen
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 5th Mar 2021 at 21:03.
Thread Starter
I saw this the other day and thought it thought provoking - particularly in times of possible cuts to frigate numbers or other elements of our forces being discussed.
Israeli article about the grey zone and maritime threats from IranIran learned from the experience that it cannot stand toe to toe — or hull to hull in this case — with the US in a conventional naval conflict. It instead developed a range of capabilities for asymmetrical naval warfare.
“It doesn’t just focus on one kind of attack,” Cordesman stressed. “It practices low- level attacks… It escalates to land-based anti-ship missiles. It conducts a mixture of attacks on shipping from platforms like drones, they use or at least encourage groups like the Houthis to use land-based missile attacks in sequence, or simultaneously with naval attacks. So this is not some kind of simplistic model. Effectively you’re talking about a country that knows how to play three-dimensional chess.”
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Iran has invested heavily in pursuing hegemony over the sea in its neighborhood. It has short, medium and long-range coastal anti-ship missiles, including the domestically produced Khalij Fars missile. Tehran has bought and produced submarines armed with long-range torpedoes. On the surface, the regular navy has a relatively robust fleet armed with anti-ship missiles. Its IRGC counterpart has invested in suicide speedboats and fast-attack craft to overwhelm enemy warships with swarm tactics. It can also target ships with UAVs, special forces raids and proxy forces throughout the region.
These elements are on display in Iran’s naval exercises. “Some involve amphibious elements, commando raids, strikes on islands, or platforms like drones,” said Cordesman. “Some involve the use of swarming tactics, others involve the use of remote-controlled surface vessels armed with explosives.”
Israeli article about the grey zone and maritime threats from IranIran learned from the experience that it cannot stand toe to toe — or hull to hull in this case — with the US in a conventional naval conflict. It instead developed a range of capabilities for asymmetrical naval warfare.
“It doesn’t just focus on one kind of attack,” Cordesman stressed. “It practices low- level attacks… It escalates to land-based anti-ship missiles. It conducts a mixture of attacks on shipping from platforms like drones, they use or at least encourage groups like the Houthis to use land-based missile attacks in sequence, or simultaneously with naval attacks. So this is not some kind of simplistic model. Effectively you’re talking about a country that knows how to play three-dimensional chess.”
-----
Iran has invested heavily in pursuing hegemony over the sea in its neighborhood. It has short, medium and long-range coastal anti-ship missiles, including the domestically produced Khalij Fars missile. Tehran has bought and produced submarines armed with long-range torpedoes. On the surface, the regular navy has a relatively robust fleet armed with anti-ship missiles. Its IRGC counterpart has invested in suicide speedboats and fast-attack craft to overwhelm enemy warships with swarm tactics. It can also target ships with UAVs, special forces raids and proxy forces throughout the region.
These elements are on display in Iran’s naval exercises. “Some involve amphibious elements, commando raids, strikes on islands, or platforms like drones,” said Cordesman. “Some involve the use of swarming tactics, others involve the use of remote-controlled surface vessels armed with explosives.”
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 7th Mar 2021 at 12:30.
So Iran has built the type of navy and sea defences it needs to defend its coastline and territorial waters in a relatively narrow waterway, enough to give a potential opponent a bloody nose and think twice.
Seems like a sensible idea.
Seems like a sensible idea.
Thread Starter
I hope the politicians remember that the Atlantic is not the only place ASW is needed. I also hope that for all this talk of the Indo-Pacific, we are still in the Atlantic.
From Fundamental factors influencing British defence policies:
The Atlantic is a famously stormy ocean, and so are most of its subsidiary seas. These waters both directly link the UK to, and insulate (not isolate) it from, a huge swathe of the world. The Atlantic and North Sea also give access to the Baltic and Mediterranean and their littoral countries, as well as to the Arctic Ocean and its littoral countries (which include Russia).
The Atlantic also gives access, directly and indirectly, to the other great oceans of the world. In nautical terms, Argentina, Canada, Russia and South Africa, and every country in between, are neighbours of Britain.
