Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
Asturia,
And, little reported in these parts, there was a direct quote from Jeremy Corbyn last week of "The UK armed forces need more ships, aircraft and people."
And, little reported in these parts, there was a direct quote from Jeremy Corbyn last week of "The UK armed forces need more ships, aircraft and people."
Well - he means jobs of course - but it really is awful how few ships ANY European country has - I think the whole of Europe (excluding Russia) has about 25% of the ships class for class that the USA has........
Thread Starter
pr00ne
In 2010 cuts were needed - and perhaps there was a case for the Harrier decision, but the STOVL/CTOL/STOVL debacle did cost a lot of money and made it a politically sensitive area which reduced the the Navy's ability to deal with the issue of skills for QEC/F-35B. The same cuts could have been made, even more money could have been saved, but without causing so much trouble. So much for politicians and ideas.
In 2015 both RAF and RN expected a manpower uplift. However, Cameron weaseled his way out of it by not upsetting backbenchers will Regimental Ties.
If only the politicians would pay more attention to detail - not just in defence, but education, health, BREXIT - you name it!
In 2010 cuts were needed - and perhaps there was a case for the Harrier decision, but the STOVL/CTOL/STOVL debacle did cost a lot of money and made it a politically sensitive area which reduced the the Navy's ability to deal with the issue of skills for QEC/F-35B. The same cuts could have been made, even more money could have been saved, but without causing so much trouble. So much for politicians and ideas.
In 2015 both RAF and RN expected a manpower uplift. However, Cameron weaseled his way out of it by not upsetting backbenchers will Regimental Ties.
If only the politicians would pay more attention to detail - not just in defence, but education, health, BREXIT - you name it!
I see they';re sending Duncan, a T45, to the Gulf - so the UK will have 2 ships there "until Montrose returns for maintenance"
So that's 2 out of 19 surface combatant warships deployed............... talk about thinly spread..............
So that's 2 out of 19 surface combatant warships deployed............... talk about thinly spread..............
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
When you don’t give pay rises to the pay is crap, the food and accommodation is crap, and you keep degrading the terms of service so the pension is crap - I’m not sure what you expect a series of rotating door ministers to do to change the situation....
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...tment-plummets
UK army combat units 40% below strength as recruitment plummets
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...tment-plummets
UK army combat units 40% below strength as recruitment plummets
This may be controversial, but...
Maybe some or all of the recruitment adverts should start to target the key demographics. Young, working class men/boys. That’s who has traditionally filled the ranks of the Army.
I know the diversity targets are a good way of broadening the appeal of the Armed Forces to all demographics but you still need to get people through the door in the first place.
BV
I know the diversity targets are a good way of broadening the appeal of the Armed Forces to all demographics but you still need to get people through the door in the first place.
BV
Interesting a comment from EU fishermen regarding brexit and a claim that will not be fishing in UK waters.
Response was "How are they going to stop us" and when told it will be by a "Fisheries protection vessel / RN Warship". They just responded "20 trawlers over a 1000 sq mile ocean area can not be all arrested and a single arrest means vessel has to escort trawler to shore. We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Maybe some or all of the recruitment adverts should start to target the key demographics. Young, working class men/boys. That’s who has traditionally filled the ranks of the Army.
I know the diversity targets are a good way of broadening the appeal of the Armed Forces to all demographics but you still need to get people through the door in the first place.
BV
I know the diversity targets are a good way of broadening the appeal of the Armed Forces to all demographics but you still need to get people through the door in the first place.
BV
" We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Presumably if the Brits confiscate the vessel they other 19 have to buy the guy who was caught a new vessel tho'?? if not I can see "co-operation" not lasting very long............
Presumably if the Brits confiscate the vessel they other 19 have to buy the guy who was caught a new vessel tho'?? if not I can see "co-operation" not lasting very long............
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Instead of escorting Illegal fishing vessels to shore they could arrest the crew and sink the illegal vessel. Just need a brig to hold the illegal crews!
As for Army recruitment. Just end the useless Capita contract due to poor performance! They have proved to slow the recruitment process so much that many prospective recruits get tired of waiting and find something else to do. Bring the process back to the Army like the old days.
In fact get rid of all the out sourcing. It doesn't really save us anything and is detrimental to the services all round.
As for Army recruitment. Just end the useless Capita contract due to poor performance! They have proved to slow the recruitment process so much that many prospective recruits get tired of waiting and find something else to do. Bring the process back to the Army like the old days.
In fact get rid of all the out sourcing. It doesn't really save us anything and is detrimental to the services all round.
Interesting a comment from EU fishermen regarding brexit and a claim that will not be fishing in UK waters.
Response was "How are they going to stop us" and when told it will be by a "Fisheries protection vessel / RN Warship". They just responded "20 trawlers over a 1000 sq mile ocean area can not be all arrested and a single arrest means vessel has to escort trawler to shore. We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Response was "How are they going to stop us" and when told it will be by a "Fisheries protection vessel / RN Warship". They just responded "20 trawlers over a 1000 sq mile ocean area can not be all arrested and a single arrest means vessel has to escort trawler to shore. We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Mind you nowadays there's probably some H&S reason why we can't do it anyway. 
" We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Presumably if the Brits confiscate the vessel they other 19 have to buy the guy who was caught a new vessel tho'?? if not I can see "co-operation" not lasting very long............
Presumably if the Brits confiscate the vessel they other 19 have to buy the guy who was caught a new vessel tho'?? if not I can see "co-operation" not lasting very long............
Mind you, they wouldn't need to get involved as 100 fishing boat chained together off Gibraltar with 5000 people blockading the land border and what happens. Spanish Govt not involved but you can be guaranteed they would not be rushing to do anything. Could put lots of naval vessels in to break it up but fisherman would be more than willing to lose nets to foul the vessels. They have a lot more fishing boats that can be used.
Who wins ? Hence be careful what you wish for.
Thread Starter
He doesn't care as he will have no input in its implementation.
Interesting a comment from EU fishermen regarding brexit and a claim that will not be fishing in UK waters.
Response was "How are they going to stop us" and when told it will be by a "Fisheries protection vessel / RN Warship". They just responded "20 trawlers over a 1000 sq mile ocean area can not be all arrested and a single arrest means vessel has to escort trawler to shore. We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Interesting a comment from EU fishermen regarding brexit and a claim that will not be fishing in UK waters.
Response was "How are they going to stop us" and when told it will be by a "Fisheries protection vessel / RN Warship". They just responded "20 trawlers over a 1000 sq mile ocean area can not be all arrested and a single arrest means vessel has to escort trawler to shore. We are part of a fishery coop, therefore arrested trawler gets a share of what they other 19 catch."
Is a coop a legal entity? If so it can be prosecuted? I thought most fishing vessels were owned by companies, which can be prosecuted.
There are electronic means (such as AIS) to keep tabs on vessels. Hopefully you will agree that it would be disastrous for fish stocks and the wider maritime environment if vessels could fish in the UK EEZ without the RN (on behalf of DEFRA) or the SFPA having enforcement powers?
Is a coop a legal entity? If so it can be prosecuted? I thought most fishing vessels were owned by companies, which can be prosecuted.
There are electronic means (such as AIS) to keep tabs on vessels.
There are electronic means (such as AIS) to keep tabs on vessels.
A Coop is a legal organisation owned by its members, UK fishermen had them.
Hopefully you will agree that it would be disastrous for fish stocks and the wider maritime environment if vessels could fish in the UK EEZ without the RN (on behalf of DEFRA) or the SFPA having enforcement powers?
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/201...-michael-gove/
Thread Starter
Apart from the RN and Marine Scotland/SFPA - what is the make up of these vessels? Other authorities do inspections closer to shore. I am not surprised they have been cut - look at the Cuts to Border Force, the Police and Prison services, and so on.
There must be some possible technical fix so that the lime and location a boat puts her fishing gear in the water is logged, or for it to be mandatory to keep AIS turned on. AIS was intended for safety and security, but could be used as the starting point - I assume. I would have hoped Government would have looked into this.
I am well aware our own fishermen can be offenders. I have not looked aat that like, as we are all tired of listening to Micheal Gove.
There must be some possible technical fix so that the lime and location a boat puts her fishing gear in the water is logged, or for it to be mandatory to keep AIS turned on. AIS was intended for safety and security, but could be used as the starting point - I assume. I would have hoped Government would have looked into this.
I am well aware our own fishermen can be offenders. I have not looked aat that like, as we are all tired of listening to Micheal Gove.
Some years ago - 90s - the RN used to ask for a named MAFF (Fisheries) officer from Poole to go onboard their protection vessels during inspections. In a previous life he'd held a Master's ticket on supertankers, and it was the best free training the RN could wish for. His dad was well known as a glider pilot in WW2, having escaped and returned many times.
WEBF
The Uk currently has 2 River II and 3 River I Patrol boats run by the RN (there is also 1 River class in the Falklands) - these all have 30-40 crew and can land a helicopter
they also have Border Force vessels - 4 x Stan 4207 &1 x Telkka Patrol vessels (12 crew) plus 8 x Delta ARRC 190 small rescue craft (6 crew)
I guess they also deploy mine hunters etc if necessary
The Uk currently has 2 River II and 3 River I Patrol boats run by the RN (there is also 1 River class in the Falklands) - these all have 30-40 crew and can land a helicopter
they also have Border Force vessels - 4 x Stan 4207 &1 x Telkka Patrol vessels (12 crew) plus 8 x Delta ARRC 190 small rescue craft (6 crew)
I guess they also deploy mine hunters etc if necessary
Thread Starter
Astrias56
Is that where the "twelve vessels" statement came from? The thing is, Border Force cannot do fishery protection - their vessels are too small, they do not have the training, and a busy. The RN on behalf of DEFRA and the Marine Management Organisation does fishery boardings/inspection in English, Welsh, and NI waters, but not routinely Scottish ones. Marine Scotland police fishing in Scottish waters
The RN Fishery Protection squadron also does national tasking - such as monitoring and escorting passing warships (and other vessels) of interest, helping the Police and Border Force with drug interceptions, keeping an eye on other unlawful activity at sea, helping deal with migrants in the Strait of Dover, and potentially anti pollution or counter terrorism roles.
The three Batch 1 River class replaced the older Island class. Their increased size means they can operate in rougher seas, and their mannnig system means they can spend large amounts of time at sea. a fourth one, Clyde, was ordered to act as a Falklands patrol vessel - modifications included an increase in size, a flight deck, and improved communications to worth with the Army and RAF down South.
One of them went to the Mediterranean not so many years ago to support NATO/EU activities, another covered for Clyde when she was having a refit, and spent some time in the Caribbean. The five Batch 2 vessels and enlarged and improved, although they were ordered to keep the shipbuilders busy. They have a proper flight deck, improved communications, and others. One was earmarked to replace Clyde, but the other four.....? Perhaps one can go to the Caribbean (for at least part of the year), allowing the LSD(A) to return to COMATG's ORBAT? Perhaps another can go the Mediterranean for NATO operations? You certainly would not to be in one in the Strait of Hormuz right now.
Then late last year Gavin W announced that the Batch 1s would be retained for tasks in home waters, and based around the UK instead of in naval bases. I am not sure they have fully worked out the manning yet...
The thing is, the RN needs more people as a top priority, as does the RAF, and I would say more helicopters (Merlin HM2 or Wildcat HM2), as a priority. The politicians prefer to make vague sounds about ship numbers though. We (I am saying 'we' as I do wear dark blue) need more people for our current ones.
Is that where the "twelve vessels" statement came from? The thing is, Border Force cannot do fishery protection - their vessels are too small, they do not have the training, and a busy. The RN on behalf of DEFRA and the Marine Management Organisation does fishery boardings/inspection in English, Welsh, and NI waters, but not routinely Scottish ones. Marine Scotland police fishing in Scottish waters
The RN Fishery Protection squadron also does national tasking - such as monitoring and escorting passing warships (and other vessels) of interest, helping the Police and Border Force with drug interceptions, keeping an eye on other unlawful activity at sea, helping deal with migrants in the Strait of Dover, and potentially anti pollution or counter terrorism roles.
The three Batch 1 River class replaced the older Island class. Their increased size means they can operate in rougher seas, and their mannnig system means they can spend large amounts of time at sea. a fourth one, Clyde, was ordered to act as a Falklands patrol vessel - modifications included an increase in size, a flight deck, and improved communications to worth with the Army and RAF down South.
One of them went to the Mediterranean not so many years ago to support NATO/EU activities, another covered for Clyde when she was having a refit, and spent some time in the Caribbean. The five Batch 2 vessels and enlarged and improved, although they were ordered to keep the shipbuilders busy. They have a proper flight deck, improved communications, and others. One was earmarked to replace Clyde, but the other four.....? Perhaps one can go to the Caribbean (for at least part of the year), allowing the LSD(A) to return to COMATG's ORBAT? Perhaps another can go the Mediterranean for NATO operations? You certainly would not to be in one in the Strait of Hormuz right now.
Then late last year Gavin W announced that the Batch 1s would be retained for tasks in home waters, and based around the UK instead of in naval bases. I am not sure they have fully worked out the manning yet...
The thing is, the RN needs more people as a top priority, as does the RAF, and I would say more helicopters (Merlin HM2 or Wildcat HM2), as a priority. The politicians prefer to make vague sounds about ship numbers though. We (I am saying 'we' as I do wear dark blue) need more people for our current ones.
The thing is, the RN needs more people as a top priority, as does the RAF, and I would say more helicopters (Merlin HM2 or Wildcat HM2), as a priority. The politicians prefer to make vague sounds about ship numbers though. We (I am saying 'we' as I do wear dark blue) need more people for our current ones.