Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Gorilla - Joe public is sadly very ignorant of much of what the British Forces do but they do have a right to know where their taxpayers money goes. Why not educate them and see what happens. For example how many aircraft are in service with the RAF? What is the personell number by rank and what is the cost?
How many are pensioned /retired and what is the cost? You see Joe Public just sees an ever increasing defence cost and has no idea where the money actually goes. We should have a properly equipped and trained fighting force upholding the very best of the British excellence but we shall not achieve this without much more detailed knowledge in the public domain.
How many are pensioned /retired and what is the cost? You see Joe Public just sees an ever increasing defence cost and has no idea where the money actually goes. We should have a properly equipped and trained fighting force upholding the very best of the British excellence but we shall not achieve this without much more detailed knowledge in the public domain.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spanish Riviera
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Next door
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WorkingHard
I'm all for giving more info to the public about the Forces, however there are a few more sacred cows to have public scrutiny before us.
The NHS, Social Services take a far bigger proportion of my taxes and are very inefficient and unfair in how they are used and abused. Lets sort them out first IMO.
I'm all for giving more info to the public about the Forces, however there are a few more sacred cows to have public scrutiny before us.
The NHS, Social Services take a far bigger proportion of my taxes and are very inefficient and unfair in how they are used and abused. Lets sort them out first IMO.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its Just a pity that no Govt of any presuasion has the balls to do reviews of the education or the NHS with such vigour as they have with defence. Having worked in both NHS and Military healthcare systems the NHS (and DEMTA)is a complete mess with so many areas that could be cut to save money that could be reinvested in patient care. The the drugs budget is a huge blackhole that needs looked at. With Properly reformed management it would be a world leader.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Might I suggest that running a relatively small military medical service is a bit different to running the NHS (the largest organisation in Europe). The larger the organisation, the more scope there is for reform. The armed forces medical services deal with a generally fit and disciplined customer base and are not normally burdened with resource-sapping older people, smack heads and malingerers.
If the NHS is seen as a sacred cow, that is because most people like it that way. With advances in medicine and higher public expectations, there will never be sufficient resources for the NHS and, consequently, it will always be found wanting.
Have I missed something or are the health and education sectors not almost buckling under the weight of performance targets and reforms?
If the NHS is seen as a sacred cow, that is because most people like it that way. With advances in medicine and higher public expectations, there will never be sufficient resources for the NHS and, consequently, it will always be found wanting.
Have I missed something or are the health and education sectors not almost buckling under the weight of performance targets and reforms?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WB SATCO - thanks for the link but where in the hell does one find the data in such a morass of statistics and unknown references? As I said earlier, if Joe public had some readily identifiable data it just might make a difference.
If you look at the RAF for example the often PERCEIVED view is for idiotic low level fast jets in the dead of night or rotary wing frightening animals to death or tragically horse and rider injuries. We know this is just a fraction of what goes on (and training is necessary) but the taxpayer has to be convinced that it is the correct way to do things and more resources are needed. On an earlier thread there was comment about the troops not having the right equipment in Iraq, it may be the ultimate fault of the politicians but Joe public sees this as a failure of the services or at the very least a whinging service trying to blame the politicians for it's failures. And dont shoot the messenger, I may be part of Joe public these days and I listen to what he says (without agreeing) and he is the majority. I say again - this is what I hear not with what I agree.
If you look at the RAF for example the often PERCEIVED view is for idiotic low level fast jets in the dead of night or rotary wing frightening animals to death or tragically horse and rider injuries. We know this is just a fraction of what goes on (and training is necessary) but the taxpayer has to be convinced that it is the correct way to do things and more resources are needed. On an earlier thread there was comment about the troops not having the right equipment in Iraq, it may be the ultimate fault of the politicians but Joe public sees this as a failure of the services or at the very least a whinging service trying to blame the politicians for it's failures. And dont shoot the messenger, I may be part of Joe public these days and I listen to what he says (without agreeing) and he is the majority. I say again - this is what I hear not with what I agree.
Thread Starter
We know this is just a fraction of what goes on (and training is necessary) but the taxpayer has to be convinced that it is the correct way to do things and more resources are needed. On an earlier thread there was comment about the troops not having the right equipment in Iraq, it may be the ultimate fault of the politicians but Joe public sees this as a failure of the services or at the very least a whinging service trying to blame the politicians for it's failures.
My guess is that if the public had a greater awareness of these things, as discussed here (and elsewhere) then their would be more approval for defence spending.
As an aside, from personal experience I know that the forces have to account for EVERY pound they spend, yet other agencies and organisations of HM Government are not so tightly watched over. An at the same time as demanding the Services do more with less people and less equipment, Mr Brown from No 11 is happy to give BILLIONS every year to the EU, and organisation so corrupt that its own accountants have refused to sign the accounts.
My guess is that if the public had a greater awareness of these things, as discussed here (and elsewhere) then their would be more approval for defence spending.
As an aside, from personal experience I know that the forces have to account for EVERY pound they spend, yet other agencies and organisations of HM Government are not so tightly watched over. An at the same time as demanding the Services do more with less people and less equipment, Mr Brown from No 11 is happy to give BILLIONS every year to the EU, and organisation so corrupt that its own accountants have refused to sign the accounts.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WEBF
You are miles off matey. Even if the public had a greater awareness (something they don't want) you would never get their approval for greater Defence spending for our little jaunts abroad.
When the first suicide bomber goes off here, then you will see a huge chunk of defence spending happening in the UK. Even then it will not be an increase!! What use your massive carriers eh?
As for Gordon and the EU, he has no choice but to contribute £Billions to the EU. We are one of the few net contributors to the EU i.e. we pay far more in year on year then we ever get out. Apart from, that is, the couple of years that the handbagger got the UK a rebate.
Ted Heath was responsible for our entry terms and it had to be that way in order to stop the French from blackballing us for a second time!! It was corrupt from the moment we entered the EEC!
Unfortunately Joe Public would much rather see NHS improvements and less tax on his next pint than see defence spending increased. Thats the reality of it all.
You are miles off matey. Even if the public had a greater awareness (something they don't want) you would never get their approval for greater Defence spending for our little jaunts abroad.
When the first suicide bomber goes off here, then you will see a huge chunk of defence spending happening in the UK. Even then it will not be an increase!! What use your massive carriers eh?
As for Gordon and the EU, he has no choice but to contribute £Billions to the EU. We are one of the few net contributors to the EU i.e. we pay far more in year on year then we ever get out. Apart from, that is, the couple of years that the handbagger got the UK a rebate.
Ted Heath was responsible for our entry terms and it had to be that way in order to stop the French from blackballing us for a second time!! It was corrupt from the moment we entered the EEC!
Unfortunately Joe Public would much rather see NHS improvements and less tax on his next pint than see defence spending increased. Thats the reality of it all.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Gorilla - The real question is of course is the defence spending effective and justified or is there a huge amount of wastage as in other large operations (NHS has been highlighted for example)?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scud your description of the military secondry care couldn't be further from the truth. The MDHU's are basically NHS wards manned by military staff. You get very few soldiers/sailors/airmen through because the NHS control the beds and given the choice between canceling military patients with no come back or NHS patients and having to incur penalties then our personnel loose out. The defence medical services are now having to spend a fortune puting service personel through BUPA etc and pay for bednights in MDHU's that we don't get.
The NHS needs a major overhaul and definitly some major investigations into where large ammounts of the money is going.
I would sugest that the NHS has sufficient funding but its management is apalling.
The UK is falling into the European belief that there is no need to spend on defence as the USA will always bail us out. Is there is less money about to spend on defence has the GDP of the country fallen that much. What is needed is a Prudent government who won't allow the waste we see every day in the public services.
The NHS needs a major overhaul and definitly some major investigations into where large ammounts of the money is going.
I would sugest that the NHS has sufficient funding but its management is apalling.
The UK is falling into the European belief that there is no need to spend on defence as the USA will always bail us out. Is there is less money about to spend on defence has the GDP of the country fallen that much. What is needed is a Prudent government who won't allow the waste we see every day in the public services.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nurse. Sorry, but I was referring, in the main, to primary healthcare.
I'm not sure what the answer is to the services' secondary healthcare problems. The services don't have enough sick people to justify running several regional general hospitals and, while, collectively, the services have a large enough population to justify running a single general hospital, the problem is, where to locate it. Wherever you put it, it's going to mean a lot of (personally and operationally) inconvenient trekking for a lot of outpatients. So, on the face of it, MDHUs are the answer. Are there no contracts between MDHUs and their parent hospitals regarding bed allocation? If not, why not?
I'm not sure what the answer is to the services' secondary healthcare problems. The services don't have enough sick people to justify running several regional general hospitals and, while, collectively, the services have a large enough population to justify running a single general hospital, the problem is, where to locate it. Wherever you put it, it's going to mean a lot of (personally and operationally) inconvenient trekking for a lot of outpatients. So, on the face of it, MDHUs are the answer. Are there no contracts between MDHUs and their parent hospitals regarding bed allocation? If not, why not?
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not build a hospital at Halton, or Ely? The local area health authorities could use the surplus bed space when not needed by the mil.............oh wait, no...the Torie$ killed that one a while back during 'Option$ for Change' didn't they?
Regards
-nick
Regards
-nick
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The major problem was they kept the royal naval hospital haslar open. Wrong hospital wrong place. Have heard arguments about all the military hospitals and the pros and cons of opening one. The major problem occuring is the military ethos in the MDHU's is slipping away. And Doctors and Nursing staff are really pissed of and are leaving many left the NHS because the military claimed to offer them somethng different.
Out on tellic i we had numerous chats about the future we suspect that it will all centralise into Birmingham. But we agreed Haslar was the wrong hospital in the wrong place. And the best place would have been Wroughton with the land on the site being developed into accomidation and storage for at least 1 field hospital as well. But I see its now been demolished.
Out on tellic i we had numerous chats about the future we suspect that it will all centralise into Birmingham. But we agreed Haslar was the wrong hospital in the wrong place. And the best place would have been Wroughton with the land on the site being developed into accomidation and storage for at least 1 field hospital as well. But I see its now been demolished.
I'm almost tempted to say 'Sorry, but I can't be bothered to read it' but seem to recall that the first response to that thread was along exactly those lines... {edited to add - actually, it was the second reply...}
It all boils down to the fact that as long as the general public perceive there to be little threat (because they now don't believe Presidente Tony when he says that there is one), and as long as other things that impinge upon their lives (or the lives of friends and acquaintances) are in need of sorting out, then the public won't bother.
As Gorilla says, as soon as something happens in the UK courtesy of AQ (God forbid, but even He might be a bit hard pushed on that one), then there'll be a fuss, mutterings about increasing defence spending - which will largely be smoke and mirrors through misleading use of figures - and then.... then we'll be having a similar discussion to this one no more than twelve months after.
It all boils down to the fact that as long as the general public perceive there to be little threat (because they now don't believe Presidente Tony when he says that there is one), and as long as other things that impinge upon their lives (or the lives of friends and acquaintances) are in need of sorting out, then the public won't bother.
As Gorilla says, as soon as something happens in the UK courtesy of AQ (God forbid, but even He might be a bit hard pushed on that one), then there'll be a fuss, mutterings about increasing defence spending - which will largely be smoke and mirrors through misleading use of figures - and then.... then we'll be having a similar discussion to this one no more than twelve months after.