Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
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I think Stn Cdr's etc are being told Mon afternoon then the masses on Tues at 1330 I think I saw - I wouldn't expect much other than broad brush sweeping statements. The real work will be done by the 'cuts' team from Oct to Sept next year. I guess we will be told the RAF is to lose 8K personnel and that will be it until the cuts team decides where next year. Hurry up and wait.
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The Defence budget is being cut by 8% now and not the suicidal 25% everyone was talking about last month. Brings it down to 2.3% GDP which still makes the Uk the 4th BIGGEST MILITARY outfit in the world after USA/China/France.
What's the problem? What arms race are we trying to win?
What's NATO all about? Does anyone out there genuinely believe the UK can take ANYONE on in a conventional war currently, never mind after the SDSR?
We were defeated in Basra for gawd's sake
What's the problem? What arms race are we trying to win?
What's NATO all about? Does anyone out there genuinely believe the UK can take ANYONE on in a conventional war currently, never mind after the SDSR?
We were defeated in Basra for gawd's sake
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BHR
That is not what I asked of you.
Clearly you and some others here have a sound strategic, knowledgeable, and experienced handle on defence issues. So, like others of less intellect, I'll leave the argument to you and will maintain a watching brief.
Jindabyne,
Explain to me what future vulnerabilities to the defence of the UK will be countered by a Royal Navy consisting of 2 CVBGs and 4 SSBNs?
The justification for the CVs was organic AD for operations without HNS. With no ability to conduct opposed landings once the phibs are gone how are the troops going to get their? Are we planning on invading France via the Chunnel or are we only going to invade places served by Easyjet or Ryanair?
Carriers are a great idea as part of a balanced force structure. Sadly, we are not getting that because we cannot afford it.
The justification for the CVs was organic AD for operations without HNS. With no ability to conduct opposed landings once the phibs are gone how are the troops going to get their? Are we planning on invading France via the Chunnel or are we only going to invade places served by Easyjet or Ryanair?
Carriers are a great idea as part of a balanced force structure. Sadly, we are not getting that because we cannot afford it.
Clearly you and some others here have a sound strategic, knowledgeable, and experienced handle on defence issues. So, like others of less intellect, I'll leave the argument to you and will maintain a watching brief.
Thread Starter
BHR
Where did I mention UK only operations in my last post? I was pointing out that because certain things are not needed today does not mean they will not needed in the future. Yes, that will include during coalition operations.
I, unlike you, do not pretend to be able to predict the future. You say we cannot forsee x or y happening, therefore we don't need to have the means to deal with them. I say we cannot say that they will not happen, so better safe than sorry. Next you'll be saying that we should get rid of the Police as we cannot predict who tommorow's criminals are - except that we can, it'll be today's criminals as Ken Clarke has closed the prisons.
Typhoon is quite a good example. Some may argue that it was designed for the Cold War, to counter 80s/90s MiGs. Yet 80s/90s MiGs have been widely exported, including to many countries hostile to the West. Therefore it is increasingly probable that such aircraft will be encountered in the future. Even a handful of MiGs would be a game changer if we had no fighters. I guess that would be assymetry - but the other way round. Likewise other supposed Cold War threats - such as tanks or submarines.
I wonder to what extent the SDSR will have been influenced by public opinion? In turn, how much influence does the shockingly low standard of defence reporting in the media influence things?
Where did I mention UK only operations in my last post? I was pointing out that because certain things are not needed today does not mean they will not needed in the future. Yes, that will include during coalition operations.
I, unlike you, do not pretend to be able to predict the future. You say we cannot forsee x or y happening, therefore we don't need to have the means to deal with them. I say we cannot say that they will not happen, so better safe than sorry. Next you'll be saying that we should get rid of the Police as we cannot predict who tommorow's criminals are - except that we can, it'll be today's criminals as Ken Clarke has closed the prisons.
Typhoon is quite a good example. Some may argue that it was designed for the Cold War, to counter 80s/90s MiGs. Yet 80s/90s MiGs have been widely exported, including to many countries hostile to the West. Therefore it is increasingly probable that such aircraft will be encountered in the future. Even a handful of MiGs would be a game changer if we had no fighters. I guess that would be assymetry - but the other way round. Likewise other supposed Cold War threats - such as tanks or submarines.
I wonder to what extent the SDSR will have been influenced by public opinion? In turn, how much influence does the shockingly low standard of defence reporting in the media influence things?
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One hopes this is not the near future
Last edited by NutLoose; 19th Oct 2010 at 03:06.
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WEBF,
Sadly, what you fail to be able to do is understand we cannot afford to do all the things you wish, properly.
We can have a Trident replacement but the SSN fleet will be 7 boats and you cannot get any MP aircraft.
We can have new carriers in 2020 but we have to lose those we have now and all the aircraft that could fly off them. Top that off with turning the RN into a laughing stock with ship levels below that of the Canadians or Australians, if rumours are to be believed.
You are correct that no one can guess the future threat however; we are creating a military that can deal with none of the ones we project as likely!
Cheers
BHR
Sadly, what you fail to be able to do is understand we cannot afford to do all the things you wish, properly.
We can have a Trident replacement but the SSN fleet will be 7 boats and you cannot get any MP aircraft.
We can have new carriers in 2020 but we have to lose those we have now and all the aircraft that could fly off them. Top that off with turning the RN into a laughing stock with ship levels below that of the Canadians or Australians, if rumours are to be believed.
You are correct that no one can guess the future threat however; we are creating a military that can deal with none of the ones we project as likely!
Cheers
BHR
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If any of the headlines are correct this morning - and they are clearly being briefed out from Downing St, and include a number of downright lies on what could and could not be done - it isnt just the public and the media that doesnt understand defence, it's the defence chiefs and the current government. The people who made the complete looney tunes decision to keep going with aircraft carriers but to scrap the only aircraft we have that can fly off them should not be allowed anywhere near any major decision. Ferrets fighting in a sack and trying to do each other down at the expense of the overall package. This isn't lions led by donkeys, it's lions led by headless chickens.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Cancellation was the sensible preferred option but not economically sensible thanks to the contract terms agreed under the previous administration. Completing the QE will be akin the Varyag which was abandoned.
At least the decisions now can be changed later unlike the TSR2 which was cancelled and the jigs destroyed.
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There again, yesterday, most of the so called Defence Correspondents were saying that we were about to pay off the Sea Harrier....only 10 years late reporting that one!
Apart from the CV/Harrier fiasco (a truly monumental error by both the RAF and RN), I find it amazing that the Army has got away with it.....how can one possibly look another nation in the eye and say we paid off military capability to keep horses and gun carriages (all to be celebrated at The Tattoo later this year) - absolute madness.
Apart from the CV/Harrier fiasco (a truly monumental error by both the RAF and RN), I find it amazing that the Army has got away with it.....how can one possibly look another nation in the eye and say we paid off military capability to keep horses and gun carriages (all to be celebrated at The Tattoo later this year) - absolute madness.
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And of course the RAF can justify a full time squadron flying air displays, another one flying a Lancaster, Dakota, spitfires and Hurricanes and Parachute display team deploying to America to select members whilst cutting operational units parachute training?
The army could rationalise its display teams. RAF got to keep RIAT and Waddington and other Airshows, Navy got to keep its Navy days so where is the Army equivilent? Edinburgh doesn't exactly give a great shopfront for the army capibility
The army could rationalise its display teams. RAF got to keep RIAT and Waddington and other Airshows, Navy got to keep its Navy days so where is the Army equivilent? Edinburgh doesn't exactly give a great shopfront for the army capibility
Thread Starter
In the post SDSR gloom, I've had little to add to this thread. I also was shocked to agree with BHR.
I understand the Army argued that it needs to retain lots of MBTs etc to prevent skill fade, but what about skill fade regarding carrier operations? Presumably not considered an issue, as they have no experience of it. The First Sea Lord was ignored.
News that the Nimrods are being broken up is just sickening. Even if they were mothballed there would be great savings, and a possibility of regenerating them in x years time. We just don't need a MPA it seems, and trying to make up for the shortfall in ASW capabilities with our dwindling frigate numbers will not cause problems with how ships are used and deployed. The First Sea Lord was ignored again.
Why were future threats to energy supplies left out of the strategy paper? When terrorist plots that started in Yemen came to the fore, why did the Chief of Defence Staff say we must concentrate on Afghanistan to stop it from becoming another Yemen? Surely, we might need to intervene to prevent it falling into the hands of a Taliban like regime - after all, Bin Laden and his ilk and repeatedly expresed a desire to hit the oil supply, most of which passes through the Gulf of Aden.
Did the SDSR consider the needs of the 2012 Olympics? The Express did, although perhaps its reporters should have tried harder at School.
I understand the Army argued that it needs to retain lots of MBTs etc to prevent skill fade, but what about skill fade regarding carrier operations? Presumably not considered an issue, as they have no experience of it. The First Sea Lord was ignored.
News that the Nimrods are being broken up is just sickening. Even if they were mothballed there would be great savings, and a possibility of regenerating them in x years time. We just don't need a MPA it seems, and trying to make up for the shortfall in ASW capabilities with our dwindling frigate numbers will not cause problems with how ships are used and deployed. The First Sea Lord was ignored again.
Why were future threats to energy supplies left out of the strategy paper? When terrorist plots that started in Yemen came to the fore, why did the Chief of Defence Staff say we must concentrate on Afghanistan to stop it from becoming another Yemen? Surely, we might need to intervene to prevent it falling into the hands of a Taliban like regime - after all, Bin Laden and his ilk and repeatedly expresed a desire to hit the oil supply, most of which passes through the Gulf of Aden.
Did the SDSR consider the needs of the 2012 Olympics? The Express did, although perhaps its reporters should have tried harder at School.
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News that the Nimrods are being broken up is just sickening. Even if they were mothballed there would be great savings, and a possibility of regenerating them in x years time.
Hangering them until better time's is a no brainer.
This whole so called review is nothing more than a hastily contrived knee jerk cost cutting exercise and bull****ting the electorate into believing the government knows what its doing is downright dangerous. There really does need to be a public enquiry right now before irreplaceable things are lost forever.
The army could rationalise its display teams. RAF got to keep RIAT and Waddington and other Airshows, Navy got to keep its Navy days so where is the Army equivilent? Edinburgh doesn't exactly give a great shopfront for the army capibility
They also have a number of displays/stalls at RIAT/Families days etc. The Army doesnt do badly mate.
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Nurse,
Don't forget that Navy Days are effectively an "open day" that utilises existing assets to showcase the Navy. The Reds etc are "display" teams who's sole reason for being is to give a nice show to the public. Having been involved in open days at Plymouth in the past, I can tell you that the next day after the public had gone and we had skirmished the jetty, we were off doing fishery protection for a month.
Attractions like the RN parachute team are all volunteers who give up their free time to attend events promoting the Navy.
Cheers
Don't forget that Navy Days are effectively an "open day" that utilises existing assets to showcase the Navy. The Reds etc are "display" teams who's sole reason for being is to give a nice show to the public. Having been involved in open days at Plymouth in the past, I can tell you that the next day after the public had gone and we had skirmished the jetty, we were off doing fishery protection for a month.
Attractions like the RN parachute team are all volunteers who give up their free time to attend events promoting the Navy.
Cheers
Old Grubber,
likewise the RAF displays/statics (even the BBMF who have day jobs). The only exception is the Reds; and I would like to see the costs for them borne by the British defence industry given the current climate. After all, apart from the public, they derive the most benefit from them.
likewise the RAF displays/statics (even the BBMF who have day jobs). The only exception is the Reds; and I would like to see the costs for them borne by the British defence industry given the current climate. After all, apart from the public, they derive the most benefit from them.