Canberra B2 "Antlers" ?
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Canberra B2 "Antlers" ?
OK ... so forgive my attempted seasonal reference in the above title 
The initial production Canberra B2's had two VHF 1/4 wave aerial "Horns" bonded to the perspex canopy. See picture below (far left). I believe the Port Horn was connected to VHF Box 1 with the Starboard Horn connected to Box 2. This was in the days of the comparatively primitive 1985/6/7/8/9 VHF Tx/Rx sets fitted to the majority of RAF aircraft in the 50's ... and well before the introduction of the UHF ARC52 and the combined UHF/VHF PTR175 Tx/Rx sets (when I believe a lower fuselage VHF aerial was added along with the usual UHF Blades).
A couple of questions for Canberra Aircrew and Technicians to satisfy a genuine personal historic technical interest ... sad I know
Q1. With RF Energy (c.10 Watts) being emitted within the proximity of the pilot's main instrument panel were there any known/noticeable impacts to say the compass or other electrical moving coil type instrumentation (e.g. ILS needles) ? Were there any special procedures for undertaking a compass swing given this config ... other than the normal "electrics on/radios in Rx mode" ?
Q2. I'm guessing that the original location of these "Horn" aerials was to preserve the streamlines of the aircraft (but I may be wrong on that) ... but it would seem to represent quite a compromise given that (a) there is no appreciable ground plane, (b) the possible adverse dielectric properties of perspex and (c) what must have been a fairly "directional" propagation pattern i.e. 90 degrees to the direction of flight. So given all this were VHF Comms effective or was switching between boxes common ?
Looking forward to replies ...
Best ...
Coff.
PS. Any other apparently strange aerial configs on RAF aircraft would be of interest too ... it still beats me why there were Upper & Lower UHF Blades on the Chipmunk for example ... I didn't notice any appreciable difference
The initial production Canberra B2's had two VHF 1/4 wave aerial "Horns" bonded to the perspex canopy. See picture below (far left). I believe the Port Horn was connected to VHF Box 1 with the Starboard Horn connected to Box 2. This was in the days of the comparatively primitive 1985/6/7/8/9 VHF Tx/Rx sets fitted to the majority of RAF aircraft in the 50's ... and well before the introduction of the UHF ARC52 and the combined UHF/VHF PTR175 Tx/Rx sets (when I believe a lower fuselage VHF aerial was added along with the usual UHF Blades).
A couple of questions for Canberra Aircrew and Technicians to satisfy a genuine personal historic technical interest ... sad I know
Q1. With RF Energy (c.10 Watts) being emitted within the proximity of the pilot's main instrument panel were there any known/noticeable impacts to say the compass or other electrical moving coil type instrumentation (e.g. ILS needles) ? Were there any special procedures for undertaking a compass swing given this config ... other than the normal "electrics on/radios in Rx mode" ?
Q2. I'm guessing that the original location of these "Horn" aerials was to preserve the streamlines of the aircraft (but I may be wrong on that) ... but it would seem to represent quite a compromise given that (a) there is no appreciable ground plane, (b) the possible adverse dielectric properties of perspex and (c) what must have been a fairly "directional" propagation pattern i.e. 90 degrees to the direction of flight. So given all this were VHF Comms effective or was switching between boxes common ?
Looking forward to replies ...
Best ...
Coff.
PS. Any other apparently strange aerial configs on RAF aircraft would be of interest too ... it still beats me why there were Upper & Lower UHF Blades on the Chipmunk for example ... I didn't notice any appreciable difference
CoffmanStarter
This Hastings at Abingdon in 1959 sports a variety of protuberances, some of which I recognise (Rebecca, ADF and HF), but others no.
Any other apparently strange aerial configs on RAF aircraft would be of interest too ...
Warmtoast,
very nice pic of a Hastings landing. Looks like to have been on a PTS para detail and is arriving back with the para doors removed and 'stowed'.
We only refitted the para doors in the air if it was absolutely necessary and on continuous para training trips they were always left off between lifts.
very nice pic of a Hastings landing. Looks like to have been on a PTS para detail and is arriving back with the para doors removed and 'stowed'.
We only refitted the para doors in the air if it was absolutely necessary and on continuous para training trips they were always left off between lifts.
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Does Iris Hastings also bounce on landing? Anyone had experience? 
(Sorry, very OT)
(Sorry, very OT)
Wanderer00
Can't help with 1960's picture of IRIS, but the photo below I took at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill, S. Rhodesia) in 1952 during IRIS' annual visit. Apart from an extra ADF, no extra aerials as far as I can see.
Anyone got a picture of the IRIS Hastings at Watton in the 60s, that had a lot of aerials, ISTR
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Not VHF, but a Canberra B2 AE story from long ago.
Conningsby late 1956 or early 57, I worked in the Radar Bay, and I was detailed to do a Minor or Major, I can't remember which, on a 57 Sqdn B2 in the ASF hangar.
I'd never worked on a Canberra before, but with the confidence of a newly promoted 19 year old Cpl I sallied forth.
One of the checks was an insulation test of the Gee-H AE. I test this with a Wee Meggar and find that it is below spec. So I raise a snag in the F700.
Then it is discovered that the Gee AE was integral to the tail fin! The only fix is to change the whole fin
Y'all can imaging the concern amongst the rigger types.
After much discussion at some level much higher than Cpl, it was decided to let the a/c fly, as long as there was no performance problem with the Gee.
And a gentle word in my shell like, not to do it again.
Happy Daze
Conningsby late 1956 or early 57, I worked in the Radar Bay, and I was detailed to do a Minor or Major, I can't remember which, on a 57 Sqdn B2 in the ASF hangar.
I'd never worked on a Canberra before, but with the confidence of a newly promoted 19 year old Cpl I sallied forth.
One of the checks was an insulation test of the Gee-H AE. I test this with a Wee Meggar and find that it is below spec. So I raise a snag in the F700.
Then it is discovered that the Gee AE was integral to the tail fin! The only fix is to change the whole fin
Y'all can imaging the concern amongst the rigger types.
After much discussion at some level much higher than Cpl, it was decided to let the a/c fly, as long as there was no performance problem with the Gee.
And a gentle word in my shell like, not to do it again.
Happy Daze
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Thanks Warmtoast ... I'll have a closer look at the Hastings and come back
Ms Hastings is only demonstrating the technical merits of "horizontal polarisation" over "vertical polarisation" when applied to the installation of a Mil UHF Discone aerial ... oh ... and one of those looks like this ...
Ms Hastings is only demonstrating the technical merits of "horizontal polarisation" over "vertical polarisation" when applied to the installation of a Mil UHF Discone aerial ... oh ... and one of those looks like this ...
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 19th Dec 2013 at 15:49.
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Warmtoast ...
Had a closer look at your pic and annotated what I think to be the type of aerial/service in operation for certain (but happy to be corrected). But it became clear when doing this that over the life of the Hastings there were quite a few comms/aerial mods in play.
I'd guess that aerials 4 and 6 were FM whips probably associated with Air/Ground comms with the Army ...
Aerial 5 is most probably for Air VHF ... no clue as yet on the other possible aerials/protuberances highlighted.
IRIS Ops
Apparently RAF Hastings WJ338 operated as IRIS 3 with 115 Squadron in the 60's ?
I think I'm right in saying that IRIS 2 was a Lancaster with IRIS 4 any Argosy ... would you or anyone else be able to share a little more on IRIS Ops
Best ...
Coff.
Had a closer look at your pic and annotated what I think to be the type of aerial/service in operation for certain (but happy to be corrected
). But it became clear when doing this that over the life of the Hastings there were quite a few comms/aerial mods in play.I'd guess that aerials 4 and 6 were FM whips probably associated with Air/Ground comms with the Army ...
Aerial 5 is most probably for Air VHF ... no clue as yet on the other possible aerials/protuberances highlighted.
IRIS Ops
Apparently RAF Hastings WJ338 operated as IRIS 3 with 115 Squadron in the 60's ?
I think I'm right in saying that IRIS 2 was a Lancaster with IRIS 4 any Argosy ... would you or anyone else be able to share a little more on IRIS Ops
Best ...
Coff.
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Coff, One of the whip aerials is probably a Gee II aerial.
Transport Command Hastings were normally fitted either with Gee II or the American Loran.
During my very short posting to Dishforth, Jan-Feb 59, The Hastings there had Loran and the Beverley's Gee III.
Transport Command Hastings were normally fitted either with Gee II or the American Loran.
During my very short posting to Dishforth, Jan-Feb 59, The Hastings there had Loran and the Beverley's Gee III.
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Coff, as you know I am only a youngster. Do I assume that IRIS was the Flight Checkers? or more correctly Nav and landing Aid calibration. hence the reference to 115 Sqn.
I had some experience designing aerial installations for the Andover EMk3 and 3A aircraft. One job I did mid 80s was take off a Rebecca Aerial and replace it with a sharks fin I think it was for IFF. This was on XS644 which apart from Flight checking had another role. (I still don't think I am allowed to talk about that) The big SRIM we did was 4108 IIRC before BAe took the task from us to fit IRFIS (Inertial reference Flight Inspection System) I am not sure if this was not a crib from the CAAFU HS748 operating out of Stanstead.
Our unit EWAU/ D held all the drawings including lots from Varsity and Argosy (not too sure if the Argosy racks did not end up on the Andover as this was before my time. My old boss would know). We had several drawings of many aircraft which may have helped you in your quest re the Hastings and certainly some marks of Canberra. I did a bit on the PR9 and T17. I remember seeing drawings of the Watton Canberras which had been withdrawn from service.
On the R we were able to put out a bit of misinformation. such as the antennas on the tailplane which were initially for aerodynamics to balance the ones above the cockpit, even more so when we changed them for bigger blades then even bigger blades a few years later. Most amusing was the little dielectric panels under the 4a tanks. They were really covers for rubber wheels that came into play in the event of a wheels up landing. Not many of us knew what was really under the fin top canoe!
I heard a tale at a mates funeral a few weeks back about some surplus solid silver J/K band horn antennas being offered for scrap. they may have been brass or copper with a few microns of silver. Certainly not worth the money being asked on that well known interweb auction site.
Looking forward to hearing the resolution to the OPs antlers.
I had some experience designing aerial installations for the Andover EMk3 and 3A aircraft. One job I did mid 80s was take off a Rebecca Aerial and replace it with a sharks fin I think it was for IFF. This was on XS644 which apart from Flight checking had another role. (I still don't think I am allowed to talk about that) The big SRIM we did was 4108 IIRC before BAe took the task from us to fit IRFIS (Inertial reference Flight Inspection System) I am not sure if this was not a crib from the CAAFU HS748 operating out of Stanstead.
Our unit EWAU/ D held all the drawings including lots from Varsity and Argosy (not too sure if the Argosy racks did not end up on the Andover as this was before my time. My old boss would know). We had several drawings of many aircraft which may have helped you in your quest re the Hastings and certainly some marks of Canberra. I did a bit on the PR9 and T17. I remember seeing drawings of the Watton Canberras which had been withdrawn from service.
On the R we were able to put out a bit of misinformation. such as the antennas on the tailplane which were initially for aerodynamics to balance the ones above the cockpit, even more so when we changed them for bigger blades then even bigger blades a few years later. Most amusing was the little dielectric panels under the 4a tanks. They were really covers for rubber wheels that came into play in the event of a wheels up landing. Not many of us knew what was really under the fin top canoe!
I heard a tale at a mates funeral a few weeks back about some surplus solid silver J/K band horn antennas being offered for scrap. they may have been brass or copper with a few microns of silver. Certainly not worth the money being asked on that well known interweb auction site.
Looking forward to hearing the resolution to the OPs antlers.
Dragartist
When I was at RAF Thornhill (see my photo of IRIS 2 - TG560 above) and heard on the grapevine that the annual visit from the UK of the RAF Watton-based IRIS (Inspectorate of Radio Services) Hastings carrying the Group Captain CO of IRIS and his team in their specially adapted aircraft was due, the purpose being to check whether signals standards and Air Traffic Control procedures at R.A.F. Thornhill were up to standard. We were told that we were to adhere religiously to radio procedures as laid down by Air Council Publications (ACPs) when contacted by IRIS on the R/T.
Rumours abounded about the impending visit and for signals and ATC personnel who’d not come into contact with IRIS before, their visit instilled a sense of fear and foreboding. IRIS’ visit was to check whether signals standards and Air Traffic Control procedures were up to standard. If they weren’t then woe betides the miscreant! Allegedly an adverse report could have a severe effect on promotion prospects. In the event nothing untoward happened. We (the VHF/DF operators), ATC staff and signals staff who maintained the ground-based signals aids all received a clean bill of health and later a signal from IRIS confirmed, much to our relief, that R.A.F. Thornhill ATC and Signal Sections complied with the agreed standards and procedures as laid down by the Air Ministry, which was a relief.
Later back in the UK operating ground-based radio aids, IRIS was in the habit of sneaking around UK airspace and making R/T calls and asking to use radio navigation aids without warning or prior notice.
ISTR there was an awful upset when an airfield on the South Coast (Tangmere?) didn't match what IRIS and the Air Ministry considered best practice, from wrong responses to radio calls to Nav-aids not working properly. This would have been around 1954-1955.
Flight Global has an article about Signals Command with a bit about the rôle and functions of IRIS here:
1959 | 2988 | Flight Archive
Do I assume that IRIS was the Flight Checkers?
Rumours abounded about the impending visit and for signals and ATC personnel who’d not come into contact with IRIS before, their visit instilled a sense of fear and foreboding. IRIS’ visit was to check whether signals standards and Air Traffic Control procedures were up to standard. If they weren’t then woe betides the miscreant! Allegedly an adverse report could have a severe effect on promotion prospects. In the event nothing untoward happened. We (the VHF/DF operators), ATC staff and signals staff who maintained the ground-based signals aids all received a clean bill of health and later a signal from IRIS confirmed, much to our relief, that R.A.F. Thornhill ATC and Signal Sections complied with the agreed standards and procedures as laid down by the Air Ministry, which was a relief.
Later back in the UK operating ground-based radio aids, IRIS was in the habit of sneaking around UK airspace and making R/T calls and asking to use radio navigation aids without warning or prior notice.
ISTR there was an awful upset when an airfield on the South Coast (Tangmere?) didn't match what IRIS and the Air Ministry considered best practice, from wrong responses to radio calls to Nav-aids not working properly. This would have been around 1954-1955.
Flight Global has an article about Signals Command with a bit about the rôle and functions of IRIS here:
1959 | 2988 | Flight Archive
Last edited by Warmtoast; 19th Dec 2013 at 20:36.
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Iris Hastings
I have a couple of pictures of IRIS III WJ338 taken when she was not looking too good at RAF Catterick in the early 70's. I have no idea if they help to shed any light on the subject under discussion (its way out of my league).
We were based at RAF Watton in the early 1950's and my father as involved with the early IRIS aircraft, particularly the Lancaster. I have some pictures somewhere, if can track them down, I will post later.
QP
We were based at RAF Watton in the early 1950's and my father as involved with the early IRIS aircraft, particularly the Lancaster. I have some pictures somewhere, if can track them down, I will post later.
QP
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Many thanks Warmtoast for pointing Dragartist and me to that very interesting Flight International article from the 50's on RAF Signals Command
Dragartist those drawings you mention would be very interesting to see ... I just hope they have been archived somewhere safe. It certainly appears that you had a few interesting engineering challenges during your career. I'm not an engineer, more an enthusiast on such matters, I always wanted to know more than the "line of sight" and "inverse square law" radio simplicities around air comms and nav kit. Whilst modern digital signal processing and equipment is far more efficient, some of the kit used in the post WWII period through to the 70's by the RAF was simply outstanding in terms of ingenuity ... even if some of it required a human "signal processor" to use or interpret output.
It seems to me that Signals Command and IRIS Ops could be likened to the CFS Trappers in the mil flying world. I think I'm right in saying that 115 Squadron was responsible for Mil Aids & Radar Calibration ... I certainly remember the Argosies at RAF Cottesmore in the early 70's (I was in short trousers then). I'm sure there must have been some crossover work with the CAA CAFU organisation who undertook similar alignment checking work in the civilian world (maybe someone can enlighten further). For those interested there is a potted history of CAFU here ...
CAA CAFU Organisation
QueePee
Thanks so much for the pics of WJ338 ... and if you do come across the Lanc images please share with us ... but please don't make a special effort.
WJ338 Khormaksar December 1962
Image Credit : Web Site : Radfan and the Hawker Hunter
Note IRIS III on the tail fin
It would also seem that WJ338 had other "fame" during her RAF career with a flight to Moscow in the early 50's to repatriate seven civilian internees from Korea ... I bet a few bits of additional "earwigging" kit would have been strapped in for that trip
Image Credit : Flight International May 1953
A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 1
A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 2
Source : Flight International May 1953
Best regards ...
Coff.
Dragartist those drawings you mention would be very interesting to see ... I just hope they have been archived somewhere safe. It certainly appears that you had a few interesting engineering challenges during your career. I'm not an engineer, more an enthusiast on such matters, I always wanted to know more than the "line of sight" and "inverse square law" radio simplicities around air comms and nav kit. Whilst modern digital signal processing and equipment is far more efficient, some of the kit used in the post WWII period through to the 70's by the RAF was simply outstanding in terms of ingenuity ... even if some of it required a human "signal processor" to use or interpret output.
It seems to me that Signals Command and IRIS Ops could be likened to the CFS Trappers in the mil flying world. I think I'm right in saying that 115 Squadron was responsible for Mil Aids & Radar Calibration ... I certainly remember the Argosies at RAF Cottesmore in the early 70's (I was in short trousers then). I'm sure there must have been some crossover work with the CAA CAFU organisation who undertook similar alignment checking work in the civilian world (maybe someone can enlighten further). For those interested there is a potted history of CAFU here ...
CAA CAFU Organisation
QueePee
Thanks so much for the pics of WJ338 ... and if you do come across the Lanc images please share with us ... but please don't make a special effort.
WJ338 Khormaksar December 1962
Image Credit : Web Site : Radfan and the Hawker Hunter
Note IRIS III on the tail fin
It would also seem that WJ338 had other "fame" during her RAF career with a flight to Moscow in the early 50's to repatriate seven civilian internees from Korea ... I bet a few bits of additional "earwigging" kit would have been strapped in for that trip
Image Credit : Flight International May 1953
A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 1
A Hastings Through The Iron Curtain 2
Source : Flight International May 1953
Best regards ...
Coff.
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 20th Dec 2013 at 19:07.