Military Graves, are they normally re-interred into a commonwealth graveyard?
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Military Graves, are they normally re-interred into a commonwealth graveyard?
I have been reading an article on the Flypast forums about the P 40 and was suprised to read of the crash of a Venom in Oman in The fifties, now because of the isolation and the war going on at the time the pilot was buried beside his aircraft under a cairn, however the thread notes a new road has been built past the aircraft. Is it not normal for the pilot to be reinterred in a commonwealth graveyard, it just seems like an unfitting end to the guy.
From
P-40 from Sahara - Page 35 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Looking on the web I have found this by the same author
The Jebel Akhdar War - lgarey
I just seems strange to me that now the site is accessible that he has not been recovered and reinterred in a Military Graveyard, rather than lying beside a road and his aircraft.
I quote the thread
Reminds me (although different from) the remains of 8 Squdron Venom WR552 that still lie 2000m up in the Jebel Akhdar mountains of Oman. The pilot, F/L Owen Watkinson, is buried alongside his aircraft, where he crashed on 30 August 1958. Over the years the wreck has been recognisable as such, while the area was very difficult to access in terms of no modern road and the altitude, but since a new highway was constructed a couple of years ago I have seen people jumping up and down on what is left (essentially the engine and the centre section by now).
I do hope the P-40 can be recovered, but I also hope that the pilot's remains can too. If anyone has access to the British Embassy out there, or needs my help as a medical anatomist with experience of forensics and osteoarchaelogy, please let me know.
Reminds me (although different from) the remains of 8 Squdron Venom WR552 that still lie 2000m up in the Jebel Akhdar mountains of Oman. The pilot, F/L Owen Watkinson, is buried alongside his aircraft, where he crashed on 30 August 1958. Over the years the wreck has been recognisable as such, while the area was very difficult to access in terms of no modern road and the altitude, but since a new highway was constructed a couple of years ago I have seen people jumping up and down on what is left (essentially the engine and the centre section by now).
I do hope the P-40 can be recovered, but I also hope that the pilot's remains can too. If anyone has access to the British Embassy out there, or needs my help as a medical anatomist with experience of forensics and osteoarchaelogy, please let me know.
P-40 from Sahara - Page 35 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
Looking on the web I have found this by the same author
The Jebel Akhdar War - lgarey
Colin Richardson, author of the excellent book Masirah, Tales from a Desert Island (2) confirmed that fact in a letter to me in December 2003. He was a former Venom pilot on 8 Squadron himself, and a friend of Flight Lieutenant Owen Watkinson, the pilot, flying from Sharjah. So the search for our Venom’s identity concluded successfully. It is said that the pilot was strafing goats, and it is thought that he was not shot down, but misjudged the pull out from his attacking dive. Alongside the wreck is a small stone cairn (Figure 29), marking the grave of Owen Watkinson, who was buried under a pile of rocks immediately after the crash by local people, and later re-interred in the rock ledge that is surmounted by the cairn to this day. After the Jebel Akhdar war an RAF padre conducted a formal burial service (2) and *the Bishop of Rochester later visited and blessed the grave (10).
Last edited by NutLoose; 28th May 2012 at 18:58.
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That's what I though, almost as if he has been missed.
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Nutloose
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission commemorates those who died during the First and Second World Wars in service or of causes attributable to service. The designated war years are
First World War
4 August 1914 to 31 August 1921
Second World War
3 September 1939 to 31 December 1947"
As this incident occurred outside these periods I would assume that the CGWC would not have been involved.
Incidentally, The Unending Vigil by Phillip Longworth is an excellent history of the CGWC.
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission commemorates those who died during the First and Second World Wars in service or of causes attributable to service. The designated war years are
First World War
4 August 1914 to 31 August 1921
Second World War
3 September 1939 to 31 December 1947"
As this incident occurred outside these periods I would assume that the CGWC would not have been involved.
Incidentally, The Unending Vigil by Phillip Longworth is an excellent history of the CGWC.
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Post WW2 Graves
I believe military post WW2 Graves overseas are maintained under arrangements put in place by the MoD DCDS(Pers) Veterans - usually through the local Embassy or charitable trust., whilst graves in the UK are maintained by the MoD but via Defence Estates Contractors.
If body was buried at the time it would not be moved now unless there was a need to do such as due to disturbance by a road or building project. UK Govt / MoD will not fund recovery expeditions. Hence it is not interested in recovering the P40 and efforts are being co-ordinated by the RAF Museum
TT
If body was buried at the time it would not be moved now unless there was a need to do such as due to disturbance by a road or building project. UK Govt / MoD will not fund recovery expeditions. Hence it is not interested in recovering the P40 and efforts are being co-ordinated by the RAF Museum
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"It is said that the pilot was strafing goats"
Is that a euphemism for something else or a poor taste form of target practice?
Is that a euphemism for something else or a poor taste form of target practice?
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 29th May 2012 at 10:00. Reason: expletive removed
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I believe military post WW2 Graves overseas are maintained under arrangements put in place by the MoD DCDS(Pers) Veterans - usually through the local Embassy or charitable trust., whilst graves in the UK are maintained by the MoD but via Defence Estates Contractors.
If body was buried at the time it would not be moved now unless there was a need to do such as due to disturbance by a road or building project. UK Govt / MoD will not fund recovery expeditions. Hence it is not interested in recovering the P40 and efforts are being co-ordinated by the RAF Museum
TT
If body was buried at the time it would not be moved now unless there was a need to do such as due to disturbance by a road or building project. UK Govt / MoD will not fund recovery expeditions. Hence it is not interested in recovering the P40 and efforts are being co-ordinated by the RAF Museum
TT
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I refer to the various comments after my post concerning the Venom on Jebel Akhdar in Oman.
In reverse order:
Milo: No euphamism intended and no "WTF" needed. During the Jebel Akhdar camapign it was the tactic to try to deny access to food to the belligerents in the mountains. Strafing goats was an accepted form of "blockade". You also.find similar stories in squadron operations books in Aden. So strafing goats: normal operations.
Reynolds: I agree that this used to be peaceful spot. Owen was first interred under a stone cairn on the other side of a mountain road from where his Venom came to a halt after sliding some 500m (as I measured the debris tracks still visible). Later he was reburied in a sealed stone wall right next to his aircraft.
Re his further reburial, it was proposed at one time, but considered not to be necessary or desirable. In fact it is said that the local people looked upon him as a worthy soldier, and respected him for that.
NutLoose: No he wasn't "missed", as I explain above. As to the road: there has been a road past the wreck for many years. It is simply that the old mountain road, which was only passable by 4x4 or donkey up from the valley below, was reconstructed as a highway some 3 years ago, so that access to the plateau, difficult before, is now easy. There is a lot of development of secondary housing up there now, particularly by people from Muscat trying to find a breath of fresh air in the summer. The plateau enjoys summer temperatures of around 25C rather the 45C down below. On my previous visits few people even knew about the Venom, and it was not advertised. Now, because of the greatly increased numbers of visitors, those who spot the wreck are more numerous, and it is slowly being degraded, although recently a fence has been erected, I am told, but how effective that will be remains to be seen.
Laurence
In reverse order:
Milo: No euphamism intended and no "WTF" needed. During the Jebel Akhdar camapign it was the tactic to try to deny access to food to the belligerents in the mountains. Strafing goats was an accepted form of "blockade". You also.find similar stories in squadron operations books in Aden. So strafing goats: normal operations.
Reynolds: I agree that this used to be peaceful spot. Owen was first interred under a stone cairn on the other side of a mountain road from where his Venom came to a halt after sliding some 500m (as I measured the debris tracks still visible). Later he was reburied in a sealed stone wall right next to his aircraft.
Re his further reburial, it was proposed at one time, but considered not to be necessary or desirable. In fact it is said that the local people looked upon him as a worthy soldier, and respected him for that.
NutLoose: No he wasn't "missed", as I explain above. As to the road: there has been a road past the wreck for many years. It is simply that the old mountain road, which was only passable by 4x4 or donkey up from the valley below, was reconstructed as a highway some 3 years ago, so that access to the plateau, difficult before, is now easy. There is a lot of development of secondary housing up there now, particularly by people from Muscat trying to find a breath of fresh air in the summer. The plateau enjoys summer temperatures of around 25C rather the 45C down below. On my previous visits few people even knew about the Venom, and it was not advertised. Now, because of the greatly increased numbers of visitors, those who spot the wreck are more numerous, and it is slowly being degraded, although recently a fence has been erected, I am told, but how effective that will be remains to be seen.
Laurence
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When I was SOLF '84-'86, used to go diving a lot and there was a small island we went to. On the mainland maybe 200 mtrs away there was a Christian graveyard, this was only accessible from the sea. There were navy graves there from the late 19th century and also guys from the Dhofar campaign. So don't think there is as such a UK military graveyard in Oman, probably why F/L Owen Watkinson is still buried where he is. RIP.
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Military Graves Abroad
I have seen miitary graves from 1918/1919 and the 1940s in Murmansk Russia. They are well looked after and appear respected by the locals.
The involvement of the Brits in the Russian revolution is not well known but it does not seem to have caused antagonism to the dead
The 2nd war graves seem mainly to be from the convoys who were much appreciated by the locals
The involvement of the Brits in the Russian revolution is not well known but it does not seem to have caused antagonism to the dead
The 2nd war graves seem mainly to be from the convoys who were much appreciated by the locals
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I visited the site in 2001, before the road was improved and then visited again in 2007. They had moved F/O Watkinson's grave 'wall' about 50m back from the new road, but it was rather obscure.
The wreck of the aircraft had also been was moved about 10 metres back from the road and is now giving itself up to the terrain. Just about all that is left is the engine turbine casing and contents a few airframe parts and a few twisted bits of metal.
Though modest, I think that F/O Watkinson's grave is appropriate; I hope that a way can be found of preserving his grave and his memory. He died doing a difficult job, in very challenging flying conditions. I like to think that he played a part in making Oman one of the more pleasant places in the middle-east to live and visit. I have always been made to feel most welcome both professionally and socially.
RIP
The wreck of the aircraft had also been was moved about 10 metres back from the road and is now giving itself up to the terrain. Just about all that is left is the engine turbine casing and contents a few airframe parts and a few twisted bits of metal.
Though modest, I think that F/O Watkinson's grave is appropriate; I hope that a way can be found of preserving his grave and his memory. He died doing a difficult job, in very challenging flying conditions. I like to think that he played a part in making Oman one of the more pleasant places in the middle-east to live and visit. I have always been made to feel most welcome both professionally and socially.
RIP
Their are remote war graves in the uk as well
BBC News - Memorial planned for remote war grave on Ben More
BBC News - Memorial planned for remote war grave on Ben More
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Thanks everyone for alleviating my concerns, it seems far from being forgotton about, he isn't and is resting in a pleasant peaceful place... What more could one want.
Last edited by NutLoose; 30th May 2012 at 19:28.
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Fatter Gator: I first visited the Venom in 2003, and my last time was in 2008 when I went up with a few friends to mark the 50th anniversary of the crash and pay our respects. Between the two occasions neither the aircraft nor the grave had moved. Owen Watkinson was buried immediately after the crash some 50m or so from where he is interred now, under a stone cairn, on the other side of the road. He was moved to his present site, next to his Venom, but I think it was before 2001, although I stand to be corrected on that. Again, I have no knowledge of the aircraft being moved, but maybe it was before 2001.
Laurence
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The wreckage is on the ridge above a canyon and lies in the direction as if the aircraft had indeed impacted the ground whilst climbing out of the canyon.
beaforddave,
Your uncle, Fg Off Walter Ralph Price, was flying Venom WR357 of 8 Squadron and was leading a pairs attack on a target, located in a wadi, with cannon. However, the pull out was misjudged and the aircraft struck rising ground about 200 feet above the level of the Wadi.
The location is one mile south of Lazarak.
Fg Off Price is commemorated in the Roll of Honour in St Clement Danes Church in the Strand and also on the wall of the Armed Forces Memorial at Alrewas Staffordshire. If you have not visited this memorial, it is most impressive and well worth a visit - very moving.
Old Duffer
Your uncle, Fg Off Walter Ralph Price, was flying Venom WR357 of 8 Squadron and was leading a pairs attack on a target, located in a wadi, with cannon. However, the pull out was misjudged and the aircraft struck rising ground about 200 feet above the level of the Wadi.
The location is one mile south of Lazarak.
Fg Off Price is commemorated in the Roll of Honour in St Clement Danes Church in the Strand and also on the wall of the Armed Forces Memorial at Alrewas Staffordshire. If you have not visited this memorial, it is most impressive and well worth a visit - very moving.
Old Duffer
