Military Licence Exemptions beyond April 2012
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I also was waiting to see what would happen: until Nov 16th when I spoke to one of the RAF team working on the replacement. His thoughts then were that any package has to assume the worst case ie single pilot, single engine, no procedural rating. So (at the time) he thought that whilst all 14 exams would not be required it would still be more work than the present mil bridge. I ordered my package the next day. It was an unpleasant few weeks work but no worse than that. Fingers crossed the new package is better. Certainly it's a joke for rotary mates at present.
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I asked the CAA PLD for a list of authorised CAA approved multi pilot Helicopters in the MOD. The answer was the FBH AW139 as it's the only helo with a multi pilot IFR RTS and RFM! All other mil types are "IFR- single pilot from the right hand seat with a suitably trained aircrew member in the left hand seat" as listed in the types RTS by the RTSA.
If you now take that info to 'LASORs, Sect D, App H, Pg 69, The QSP (H) flow diagram' you cannot finish the bottom line 'flow' to get the ATPL(H) in service but, you will have to find a civvy MP type to get your TR and IRT then get the ATPL(H). At the bottom of the QSP (A) Flow chart they have listed all the Mil types that are deemed multi pilot.
They still haven't furnished me with a list of civilian multi-pilot airframes to conduct the ATPL licensing skills test.
The frustrating thing is that UK civvy companies operate Single Pilot IFR helos under a Ops Inspector letter of agreement that they do it 2 Pilot (for licensing purposes)!!
If you now take that info to 'LASORs, Sect D, App H, Pg 69, The QSP (H) flow diagram' you cannot finish the bottom line 'flow' to get the ATPL(H) in service but, you will have to find a civvy MP type to get your TR and IRT then get the ATPL(H). At the bottom of the QSP (A) Flow chart they have listed all the Mil types that are deemed multi pilot.
They still haven't furnished me with a list of civilian multi-pilot airframes to conduct the ATPL licensing skills test.
The frustrating thing is that UK civvy companies operate Single Pilot IFR helos under a Ops Inspector letter of agreement that they do it 2 Pilot (for licensing purposes)!!
Don't make me laugh! (Have you actually been to Gatwick?)
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Or you could jump in the mil type and fly a single pilot IRT with an oppo in the LHS and the inspr from the CAA on the JS, which has happened before.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Hmm, well, maybe it was the smooth talking then, and a bit of bluff over the counter, but people have done it, and been awarded the ATPL(H).
AFAIK, once the CPL(H) has been awarded, add MCCC (about £50) and an IR = ATPL(H).
AFAIK, once the CPL(H) has been awarded, add MCCC (about £50) and an IR = ATPL(H).
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So I have just finished the new 'QSP ATPL(H) Cse' at Starspeed Trg at Kemble which enables the attendee to get an ATPL(H) without leaving the service or working for a North Sea/On shore VIP helo company. It has been authorised by the CAA policy dept to get all those service/ex-service personel caught in the gap the licensing process. As proved by myself, an ex QSP or QSP can gain the ATPL by flying a VFR/IFR AS355 conversion for 5 hrs and then a multi-pilot ATPL(H) skills test with a CAA MP examiner. Total cost, £12,500 if you already have a CPL with SP IR. They have ELCAS status so you can claim back some £s and there are plenty of MOD barracks within 30mins drive. (Google 'Starspeed Training' for a contact no and speak to David)
The MODs RTSA has removed all reference to 2 pilots IFR thus blocking the service helos being used for the issue of an ATPL. LASORS, sect D, Rotary QSP flow diagram, states that you must be current on a multi-pilot type and no service helo now fits the bill (the AW139 says 2 pilots IFR but will be changed very soon to come into line). A 22 Gp staff officer has told the policy Dept at CAA that all service Helos are Single pilot IFR. RTS's will now State 'Single Pilot IFR with a suitably trained aircrew member in the left hand seat'. That statement is the show stopper for the CAA as it must be 2 pilots IFR.
NB. The CAAs PLD has posted a note at the 'PLD counter' stating 'all Military (QSPs) should have applications to the dept before the 21 Mar 12 to meet the 7 Apr deadline for licence issue'.
Hope this helps.
The MODs RTSA has removed all reference to 2 pilots IFR thus blocking the service helos being used for the issue of an ATPL. LASORS, sect D, Rotary QSP flow diagram, states that you must be current on a multi-pilot type and no service helo now fits the bill (the AW139 says 2 pilots IFR but will be changed very soon to come into line). A 22 Gp staff officer has told the policy Dept at CAA that all service Helos are Single pilot IFR. RTS's will now State 'Single Pilot IFR with a suitably trained aircrew member in the left hand seat'. That statement is the show stopper for the CAA as it must be 2 pilots IFR.
NB. The CAAs PLD has posted a note at the 'PLD counter' stating 'all Military (QSPs) should have applications to the dept before the 21 Mar 12 to meet the 7 Apr deadline for licence issue'.
Hope this helps.
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Interesting stuff. Single pilot IFR in a chinook, though? Not really how it happens in reality. Is this new line from the RTSA taken specifically to block the route to an ATPL(H) using service aircraft?
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NC
It enables 'The Service' to have a 'Non-Pilot' to be in the cockpit i.e. Navigator/WSOP or Observer when IFR flight is being conducted.
However, Fly 2000 has now decreed that if you wish to do 'Instrument Flying Practice' then you shall carry a safety 'Pilot'; so where does that leave the 'Non-Pilots in their currency? Our Nav still has to do a NHP IRT.
In summary it has worked in the 'Services' interest as their pilots cannot get the ATPL because they are not flying a 2 pilot IFR aircraft. Starspeed Training have one slot left on their ATPL cse if you're interested.
I wonder what 22 Gp have secured with EASA with reference to Military Experience! Have a look at the L311 Journal: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?u...11:SOM:EN:HTML
It enables 'The Service' to have a 'Non-Pilot' to be in the cockpit i.e. Navigator/WSOP or Observer when IFR flight is being conducted.
However, Fly 2000 has now decreed that if you wish to do 'Instrument Flying Practice' then you shall carry a safety 'Pilot'; so where does that leave the 'Non-Pilots in their currency? Our Nav still has to do a NHP IRT.
In summary it has worked in the 'Services' interest as their pilots cannot get the ATPL because they are not flying a 2 pilot IFR aircraft. Starspeed Training have one slot left on their ATPL cse if you're interested.
I wonder what 22 Gp have secured with EASA with reference to Military Experience! Have a look at the L311 Journal: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?u...11:SOM:EN:HTML
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Interesting gen, thanks mate. Interesting how the effort is made to call all our ops single pilot, just a few years after navs were binned for SH. Still, there are still some knocking around I suppose...it just seems at odds with the reality of the situation that's all.
Ref the starspeed cse, oh to have the time! Thanks anyway.
Ref the starspeed cse, oh to have the time! Thanks anyway.
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single pilot IFR?
A 22 Gp staff officer has told the policy Dept at CAA that all service Helos are Single pilot IFR. RTS's will now State 'Single Pilot IFR with a suitably trained aircrew member in the left hand seat'.
Interesting then that the latest JHC FOB has changed their wording regarding IFP/IFR flying. Where as we used to be able to use a qualified crewmember (i.e. aircrewman)as the safety pilot, it now states that the suitably trained aircrew member in the LHS must be able to take control if required (or words to that effect), therefore not an aircrewman (by the letter of the law) although many of the aircrewman I've flown with are arguably better polers than the pilots....
Interesting then that the latest JHC FOB has changed their wording regarding IFP/IFR flying. Where as we used to be able to use a qualified crewmember (i.e. aircrewman)as the safety pilot, it now states that the suitably trained aircrew member in the LHS must be able to take control if required (or words to that effect), therefore not an aircrewman (by the letter of the law) although many of the aircrewman I've flown with are arguably better polers than the pilots....
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Hi,
Remember that 8 Apr is a sunday...7th saturday and the 6th is Easter Friday....a bank holiday! !
So the CAA stop work for the weekend at 1700 on the Thursday 5th Apr.
Bill
Remember that 8 Apr is a sunday...7th saturday and the 6th is Easter Friday....a bank holiday! !
So the CAA stop work for the weekend at 1700 on the Thursday 5th Apr.
Bill
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latest JHC FOB has changed their wording regarding IFP/IFR flying
Perhaps this is just the military deciding to comply with Article 23 of the Air Navigation Order:
However, the actual definition of 'simulated instrument flight' in the ANO is:
If the pilot is merely practising instrument approaches without vision-limiting devices, the requirements are somewhat different:
Simulated instrument flight
23 (1) An aircraft shall not be flown in simulated instrument flight conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
23 (1) An aircraft shall not be flown in simulated instrument flight conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the aircraft is fitted with dual controls which are functioning properly;
(b) an additional pilot (in this rule called a 'safety pilot') is carried in a second control seat of the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the aircraft; and
(c) if the safety pilot's field of vision is not adequate, both forwards and to each side of the aircraft, a third person, who is a competent observer, occupies a position in the aircraft from which his field of vision makes good the deficiencies in that of the safety pilot, and from which he can readily communicate with the safety pilot.
(b) an additional pilot (in this rule called a 'safety pilot') is carried in a second control seat of the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the aircraft; and
(c) if the safety pilot's field of vision is not adequate, both forwards and to each side of the aircraft, a third person, who is a competent observer, occupies a position in the aircraft from which his field of vision makes good the deficiencies in that of the safety pilot, and from which he can readily communicate with the safety pilot.
'simulated instrument flight conditions' means a flight during which mechanical or optical devices are used in order to reduce the field of vision or the range of visibility from the cockpit of the aircraft.
Practice instrument approaches
24 (1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
24 (1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and
(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.
(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.
Last edited by BEagle; 18th Feb 2012 at 21:48.
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Where did the 21st March come from? That's a bit of a goalpost shift. I've done my 14 exams and have a couple of weeks IR training booked starting on 12 March planning on a visit to Gatwick to present all my documents. If the CAA are now saying that they are shutting up shop on the 21st it gives me a week to get an IR done! Blimey.
At this rate I'm tempted to get a CPL issued without an IR if only to set my exam passes in stone.
Anyone else in a similar situation? Anyone know if the visit to Gatwick with docs is still a valid plan?
At this rate I'm tempted to get a CPL issued without an IR if only to set my exam passes in stone.
Anyone else in a similar situation? Anyone know if the visit to Gatwick with docs is still a valid plan?
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Yes, where did this 21st march cut off date come from? Link please?
Frantically trying to find confirmation on the CAA website but I don't see anything indicating this date.....
Frantically trying to find confirmation on the CAA website but I don't see anything indicating this date.....
where did this 21st march cut off date come from?
Full details at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2026/Addit...%202012_v2.pdf