F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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WO, GR ... Good spot chaps ... I missed that one first time round ... So did the RAF Tw@tty Editor.
Coff.
PS. Well done Blunty ... I assume you picked up the edit error and had your Team correct same
Current post ...
Coff.
PS. Well done Blunty ... I assume you picked up the edit error and had your Team correct same
Current post ...
On the 95th Anniversary of the RAF the F-35 Lightning II, serial ZM137, took the first of a series of check flights piloted by Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Alan Norman. On completion of testing the aircraft will be handed to the Ministry of Defence whereupon it will join the first two UK aircraft at Eglin Air Force Base. At the Florida base ZM137 join the pool of F-35s being used for pilot training.
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 4th Apr 2013 at 06:17.
I think you may have misunderstood, the F-15 deal is not a mid-life upgrade. The $2.4b F-15 equipment package is all the support equipment and electronics for South Korea’s potential purchase of 60 Silent Eagles , not an upgrade for their F-15K Slam Eagles. ROK are not looking to buy both F-35 and F-15, the competition is still on (and includes Typhoon, which I would think is a very unlikely contender), but I think they’re a way off a decision yet.
So, just to clarify, the two sales in the documents are:
So, just to clarify, the two sales in the documents are:
60 conventional F-35As and associated support equipment for $10.8 billion (including ALL the stuff that SpazSinbad listed in Post #1630)
60 radars, DEWS, target pods, IRSTs, comms, parts, training and logistical support, etc. to equip 60 F-15Es (which are included in a separate deal) for $2.41 billion (not including the airframes). It has not been announced yet what the other part of that deal will cost.
The reason that notification of the potential sales has been made now is to save time later when ROK make their decision to buy ONE of the three contenders.
60 radars, DEWS, target pods, IRSTs, comms, parts, training and logistical support, etc. to equip 60 F-15Es (which are included in a separate deal) for $2.41 billion (not including the airframes). It has not been announced yet what the other part of that deal will cost.
CM - Exactly. FA18 and JSFfan have the wrong end of the stick, to our great surprise. This is a deal for new aircraft vs. new aircraft, but the airframes, engines and subsystems are covered by a direct commercial sale. This saves money on negotiating USG bureaucracy and probably makes it easier to take account of the fact that KAI already makes the forward fuselages and wings of all F-15s and is design/engineering partner on the conformal weapons bay.
However, this does raise the point that an F-15SE buy would allow ROK to upgrade their 60 F-15Ks to the SE standard or very close to it.
Neither does an F-15SE buy take Korea out of the JSF market, because they have F-16s to replace, and they can buy fully developed aircraft off a 200-per-year production line when the F-35 has become a smashing success.
However, this does raise the point that an F-15SE buy would allow ROK to upgrade their 60 F-15Ks to the SE standard or very close to it.
Neither does an F-15SE buy take Korea out of the JSF market, because they have F-16s to replace, and they can buy fully developed aircraft off a 200-per-year production line when the F-35 has become a smashing success.
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Courtney yes, they haven't made up their minds about the new plane and I don't have a firm opinion either way, but I haven't seen a part sale like this before.
I wouldn't be surprised to see another total new buy f-15 price including the aesa etc. and this one is for a MLU.
A week or two will tell us what's happening
..LO I'm amused by your first sentence followed by you considering it as an option
I wouldn't be surprised to see another total new buy f-15 price including the aesa etc. and this one is for a MLU.
A week or two will tell us what's happening
..LO I'm amused by your first sentence followed by you considering it as an option
Last edited by JSFfan; 4th Apr 2013 at 11:50.
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After Gen Bogden's little outburst earlier this week, I'd be surprised if too many new customers are going to be encouraged to sign-up for F-35. Although they're only a Level 3 partner, Australia seem to be wavering a bit now too (who can blame them when Bogden has just said they'll cost them $90m-$92m each?), Italy and Netherlands (Level 2) are looking at reducing their order and Japan won't tollerate another hike, which can't be good for the program.
The Korean F-15 offer must be looking fairly attractive right now.
The Korean F-15 offer must be looking fairly attractive right now.
JSFf,
It's not an uncommon way of doing things. Some overseas hardware sales have to go through FMS, other bits can go through direct sales (avoiding a lot of red tape and additional expense). All the F-35 stuff will have to go through the FMS route, which is very unfortunate for the programme, but a lot of the F-15 can be sold directly - so splitting the sale in this way it knocks a fair bit of the price and saves time.
It's not an uncommon way of doing things. Some overseas hardware sales have to go through FMS, other bits can go through direct sales (avoiding a lot of red tape and additional expense). All the F-35 stuff will have to go through the FMS route, which is very unfortunate for the programme, but a lot of the F-15 can be sold directly - so splitting the sale in this way it knocks a fair bit of the price and saves time.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 4th Apr 2013 at 11:48.
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Okay, if you have seen it done like this before, it may well be
yes, the f-35 will be a JPO FMS as S Korea has nothing to do with the programme
yes, the f-35 will be a JPO FMS as S Korea has nothing to do with the programme
Last edited by JSFfan; 4th Apr 2013 at 12:02.
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High Temperature Vertical Landing Pads 2012 PDF
Here are some excerpts from a 'how to construct a VL pad these days' PDF...
High Temperature Vertical Landing Pads – Pavement Materials 2012
Authors: L. Javier Malvar 1 (corresponding author) Paul Rossetti 1
https://transportation.wes.army.mil/...65%20Paper.pdf (400Kb)
"ABSTRACT
The F-35B or short take-off and vertical landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is predicted to subject airfield pavements to extremely high exhaust temperatures, velocities, and heat fluxes during vertical landings (VL). These thermal loadings are much greater than what a conventional Portland cement concrete can withstand, resulting in a high foreign object damage potential from explosive spalling....
...Successful formulations were also tested under V-22 Osprey, F/A-18 Hornet, and AV-8B Harrier exhaust exposure and proved satisfactory as well.
INTRODUCTION | BACKGROUND
Short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, such as the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), V-22 Osprey, and AV-8B Harrier, can subject an airfield pavement to extreme exhaust temperatures during vertical landing (VL) events. In addition, modern aircraft and internal or auxiliary power units (e.g. F/A-18) produce relatively high sustained thermal loads on pavements. Previous studies showed degradation of conventional PCC pavement surfaces from repetitive thermal exposures after a few months of service with maximum pavement surface temperatures as low as 325°F (163°C) [1,2]. Pavement failures can be attributed to the following causes:
1) The creation of large compressive thermal stresses parallel to the surface, which would produce not only concrete crushing, but also a bulging instability, similar to buckling, of the top layer. These horizontal compressive stresses are accompanied by vertical tensile stresses that start to build up below the surface [3].
2) A significant reduction of the concrete strength due to spilled oils which decompose the cement paste at high temperatures [4, 5, 6]. Coupled with the thermal stresses these can result in surface spalling after a few months of repetitive exposures to F/A-18 (or B-1) auxiliary power unit (APU).
3) At higher temperatures, such as those generated by the AV-8B or the JSF core (main) engine exhaust (during a VL) the very high internal pressures caused by the heating of entrapped water, water vapor, and air, can result in immediate spalling [1, 7]. This third failure mode has been reported to occur when the pavement temperature reaches the critical point of steam around 705ºF (374ºC) and the generated pore pressures increase dramatically [8]. Previous research by the Naval Facilities Engineering Command (NAVFAC) Engineering Service Center (ESC) showed that spalling could occur even prior to that, around 500ºF [9]. Spalling from trapped water is expected to be a primary mode of failure for JSF VL operations.
4) For such high temperatures, a fourth mode of failure can be aggregate or paste decomposition, if the aggregate is not heat resistant, or if the paste cannot sustain the high temperature.
PAVEMENT MATERIALS | Approach...
...2) Materials developed in-house were assessed for suitability. In particular lightweight concrete mixes used previously for the AV-8B were assessed. While these mixes had shown deterioration under actual JSF engines, this deterioration was very superficial.
...- Since spalling from trapped moisture is expected for concrete temperatures starting around 500 to 705°F (260 to 374°C), and 500°F could develop at depths as low as 0.04 inches, very thin layers of pavement are expected to spall at each cycle, until aggregates are dislodged.
- While spalling is expected approximately within the projected nozzle area, the heat flux is at a maximum along the edge of the projected nozzle area, and spall initiation could be expected there....
...REINFORCEMENT
Standard airfield concrete pavements are typically constructed with small concrete slabs separated by joint sealants which allow for temperature and curling movements. For the JSF no known joint sealant has been found that can survive the main engine exhaust temperatures during a VL. Hence, the 100 by 100 ft (30.5 by 30.5 m) pads, which were constructed as five 20 by 100 ft (6.1 by 30.5 m) lanes do not include any joints (except for the construction joints between the lanes, which are kept closed) (Fig. 3). Instead this area is constructed of continuously reinforced concrete (CRC) in both directions (Fig. 4). This prevents the possibility that the jet exhaust could get into a construction joint and erode the subgrade. This is also a concern because a pressure differential of 1 psi will lift a 12-inch thick concrete slab. The VL pad is surrounded by a 50-ft wide safety zone which is constructed with standard jointed concrete slabs. In the safety zone ablative joint sealants are used, which can survive a limited number of exposures to VL landings – this is deemed sufficient since the aircraft is not supposed to land there except in an emergency. The safety zone is surrounded by a 10-ft shoulder (Fig. 3 and 5)....
...CONCLUSIONS
High temperature pavement materials were developed which can withstand 500 exposures to the main engine exhaust of the JSF. An Engineering Technical Letter (ETL 10-4) and an interim Unified Facilities Guide Specification (UFGS 32 13 99) were developed which summarize the materials and VL pad construction requirements."
Photos/diagrams of plan, construction and finished product are in the PDF.
High Temperature Vertical Landing Pads – Pavement Materials 2012
Authors: L. Javier Malvar 1 (corresponding author) Paul Rossetti 1
https://transportation.wes.army.mil/...65%20Paper.pdf (400Kb)
"ABSTRACT
The F-35B or short take-off and vertical landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is predicted to subject airfield pavements to extremely high exhaust temperatures, velocities, and heat fluxes during vertical landings (VL). These thermal loadings are much greater than what a conventional Portland cement concrete can withstand, resulting in a high foreign object damage potential from explosive spalling....
...Successful formulations were also tested under V-22 Osprey, F/A-18 Hornet, and AV-8B Harrier exhaust exposure and proved satisfactory as well.
INTRODUCTION | BACKGROUND
Short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, such as the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), V-22 Osprey, and AV-8B Harrier, can subject an airfield pavement to extreme exhaust temperatures during vertical landing (VL) events. In addition, modern aircraft and internal or auxiliary power units (e.g. F/A-18) produce relatively high sustained thermal loads on pavements. Previous studies showed degradation of conventional PCC pavement surfaces from repetitive thermal exposures after a few months of service with maximum pavement surface temperatures as low as 325°F (163°C) [1,2]. Pavement failures can be attributed to the following causes:
1) The creation of large compressive thermal stresses parallel to the surface, which would produce not only concrete crushing, but also a bulging instability, similar to buckling, of the top layer. These horizontal compressive stresses are accompanied by vertical tensile stresses that start to build up below the surface [3].
2) A significant reduction of the concrete strength due to spilled oils which decompose the cement paste at high temperatures [4, 5, 6]. Coupled with the thermal stresses these can result in surface spalling after a few months of repetitive exposures to F/A-18 (or B-1) auxiliary power unit (APU).
3) At higher temperatures, such as those generated by the AV-8B or the JSF core (main) engine exhaust (during a VL) the very high internal pressures caused by the heating of entrapped water, water vapor, and air, can result in immediate spalling [1, 7]. This third failure mode has been reported to occur when the pavement temperature reaches the critical point of steam around 705ºF (374ºC) and the generated pore pressures increase dramatically [8]. Previous research by the Naval Facilities Engineering Command (NAVFAC) Engineering Service Center (ESC) showed that spalling could occur even prior to that, around 500ºF [9]. Spalling from trapped water is expected to be a primary mode of failure for JSF VL operations.
4) For such high temperatures, a fourth mode of failure can be aggregate or paste decomposition, if the aggregate is not heat resistant, or if the paste cannot sustain the high temperature.
PAVEMENT MATERIALS | Approach...
...2) Materials developed in-house were assessed for suitability. In particular lightweight concrete mixes used previously for the AV-8B were assessed. While these mixes had shown deterioration under actual JSF engines, this deterioration was very superficial.
...- Since spalling from trapped moisture is expected for concrete temperatures starting around 500 to 705°F (260 to 374°C), and 500°F could develop at depths as low as 0.04 inches, very thin layers of pavement are expected to spall at each cycle, until aggregates are dislodged.
- While spalling is expected approximately within the projected nozzle area, the heat flux is at a maximum along the edge of the projected nozzle area, and spall initiation could be expected there....
...REINFORCEMENT
Standard airfield concrete pavements are typically constructed with small concrete slabs separated by joint sealants which allow for temperature and curling movements. For the JSF no known joint sealant has been found that can survive the main engine exhaust temperatures during a VL. Hence, the 100 by 100 ft (30.5 by 30.5 m) pads, which were constructed as five 20 by 100 ft (6.1 by 30.5 m) lanes do not include any joints (except for the construction joints between the lanes, which are kept closed) (Fig. 3). Instead this area is constructed of continuously reinforced concrete (CRC) in both directions (Fig. 4). This prevents the possibility that the jet exhaust could get into a construction joint and erode the subgrade. This is also a concern because a pressure differential of 1 psi will lift a 12-inch thick concrete slab. The VL pad is surrounded by a 50-ft wide safety zone which is constructed with standard jointed concrete slabs. In the safety zone ablative joint sealants are used, which can survive a limited number of exposures to VL landings – this is deemed sufficient since the aircraft is not supposed to land there except in an emergency. The safety zone is surrounded by a 10-ft shoulder (Fig. 3 and 5)....
...CONCLUSIONS
High temperature pavement materials were developed which can withstand 500 exposures to the main engine exhaust of the JSF. An Engineering Technical Letter (ETL 10-4) and an interim Unified Facilities Guide Specification (UFGS 32 13 99) were developed which summarize the materials and VL pad construction requirements."
Photos/diagrams of plan, construction and finished product are in the PDF.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 4th Apr 2013 at 12:42. Reason: format
wind tunnel, EM. 
The Japanese situation is similar to when they originally bought F-15, or rather built them under license. They were looking for a similar deal with F-35, without being involved in the development phase (or perhaps I should say 'development activity' due to concurrency). While that worked with F-15, the restrictions on certain F-35 technologies mean that they will have to by some sections fully assembled.
I think the Japan sale will be an interesting one to watch as it could well have an influence on other countries in the region that are potential F-35 customers, but all of of whom are currently uncommitted/undecided to some degree or other.
I think the Japan sale will be an interesting one to watch as it could well have an influence on other countries in the region that are potential F-35 customers, but all of of whom are currently uncommitted/undecided to some degree or other.
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How to build 5 VERTICAL LANDING PADS FOR THE F-35B
VERTICAL LANDING PADS FOR THE F-35B
http://www.proconstructinc.com/jobs/...VOL_1_OF_4.pdf (10.5Mb)
'How to build' - and where - 5 VL pads at Marine Corps Air Station, Beaufort, SC with many diagrams and photos to guide us.
http://www.proconstructinc.com/jobs/...VOL_1_OF_4.pdf (10.5Mb)
'How to build' - and where - 5 VL pads at Marine Corps Air Station, Beaufort, SC with many diagrams and photos to guide us.
with many diagrams and photos to guide us.
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How to build 5 VERTICAL LANDING PADS FOR THE F-35B
VERTICAL LANDING PADS FOR THE F-35B
http://www.proconstructinc.com/jobs/...VOL_1_OF_4.pdf (10.5Mb)
'How to build' - and where - 5 VL pads at Marine Corps Air Station, Beaufort, SC with many diagrams and photos to guide us.
Is this the USMC's process and procedures document for establishing an austere base? If it is let us hope that the conflict is a long one to give enough time for the base to be constructed..
VERTICAL LANDING PADS FOR THE F-35B
http://www.proconstructinc.com/jobs/...VOL_1_OF_4.pdf (10.5Mb)
'How to build' - and where - 5 VL pads at Marine Corps Air Station, Beaufort, SC with many diagrams and photos to guide us.
Is this the USMC's process and procedures document for establishing an austere base? If it is let us hope that the conflict is a long one to give enough time for the base to be constructed..
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First Night Vertical Landing 02 April 2013
First Night Vertical Landing 02 April 2013
Code One Magazine: First Night Vertical Landing
"US Marine test pilot Maj. C.R Clift performed the first vertical landing at night on 2 April 2013 at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland. The mission was performed in F-35B BF-4 Flight 177."
Code One Magazine: First Night Vertical Landing
"US Marine test pilot Maj. C.R Clift performed the first vertical landing at night on 2 April 2013 at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland. The mission was performed in F-35B BF-4 Flight 177."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 5th Apr 2013 at 10:30. Reason: JPG added