Air Forces Monthly: Is the Tornado Up to it?
Mmmmm...
"The bucket of flying hours remaining for the Harrier would enable a two or three-year out-of-service date extension beyond 2018 to 2020 or 2021. The full five-year out-of-service date extension to 2023 that is so desperately needed by the Royal Navy "
Thats one cat ex-bag then.
"The bucket of flying hours remaining for the Harrier would enable a two or three-year out-of-service date extension beyond 2018 to 2020 or 2021. The full five-year out-of-service date extension to 2023 that is so desperately needed by the Royal Navy "
Thats one cat ex-bag then.
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Having visited a grey tub recently, I witnessed several Zoomie types getting both day and night qualified on the Carrier, so where are all these reports that they have stopped doing such things come from? They seemed fairly proficient at it to me, so much so they were being filmed by ITV! (Well, no-one went swimming anyway)
Mr C / Growbag
Sort of my point - the Harrier Force need a break in order to consolidate/learn their other skills that only they can provide (which they obviously haven't otherwise why embark a Spanish or US air group onto a Brit carrier to keep the decks hot?). Put it this way - they may have a few who are proficient at carrier ops (for a PR opportunity ...) but as a Force I would suggest they are no where near the standard of 3 years ago. Skill fade, pure and simple (and to be expected). I'm led to believe they have some first tourists who have done nothing but the war. Not suggesting thats a bad thing but if you have the capacity elsewhere (and I'm sure the original "long term plan" was to replace JFH with the Typhoon) then why not utilise all your assets to get the best capability across all operating conditions. The Tonka mates (and their jets) are more than capable of getting the job done - however, more than a few years on double ops (assuming TELIC continues ....) may see some skill fade in the Tonka fleet as well. Typhoon really needs to step up to the plate and soon. Given that TELIC seems to be less intensive than t'other place you'd think they'd "blood" the Typhoon there first thus leasving the Tornado with just one op to concentrate on.
Sort of my point - the Harrier Force need a break in order to consolidate/learn their other skills that only they can provide (which they obviously haven't otherwise why embark a Spanish or US air group onto a Brit carrier to keep the decks hot?). Put it this way - they may have a few who are proficient at carrier ops (for a PR opportunity ...) but as a Force I would suggest they are no where near the standard of 3 years ago. Skill fade, pure and simple (and to be expected). I'm led to believe they have some first tourists who have done nothing but the war. Not suggesting thats a bad thing but if you have the capacity elsewhere (and I'm sure the original "long term plan" was to replace JFH with the Typhoon) then why not utilise all your assets to get the best capability across all operating conditions. The Tonka mates (and their jets) are more than capable of getting the job done - however, more than a few years on double ops (assuming TELIC continues ....) may see some skill fade in the Tonka fleet as well. Typhoon really needs to step up to the plate and soon. Given that TELIC seems to be less intensive than t'other place you'd think they'd "blood" the Typhoon there first thus leasving the Tornado with just one op to concentrate on.
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Wrathmonk - perhaps the Harrier Mates can now get back to carrier work and back up to speed. They have been concentrating on Afghan for too long now. ...
Umm, there's a war still going on in the Afghan, in case you haven't noticed. Not too many big sea battles pending.
Umm, there's a war still going on in the Afghan, in case you haven't noticed. Not too many big sea battles pending.
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The view from the Torygraph:
Withdrawal of RAF Harrier jets from Afghanistan 'will threaten' troops - Telegraph
Withdrawal of RAF Harrier jets from Afghanistan 'will threaten' troops - Telegraph
And it was ever thus. How long ago were the Harrier boys described by the Army as "utterly, utterly useless"? In a few years time the headlines will be "how can a combat unproven aircraft like the Typhoon possibly replace an capability such as Tornado (with its 20 years [by then] of non-stop operational experience"
Wasn't it Lancaster that also got his knickers in a twist over the AT bridge? I think we can all look forward to him being in the Government, rather than Opposition - think of all the money he will ensure is diverted into the MOD coffers. Or not.
Wasn't it Lancaster that also got his knickers in a twist over the AT bridge? I think we can all look forward to him being in the Government, rather than Opposition - think of all the money he will ensure is diverted into the MOD coffers. Or not.
JFH should consider itself lucky that there are other types that can give it a break from Herrick to arrest the skill fade, and that there is a hierarchy in the RAF that is keen to give them a rest. This is most certainly not happening in the wokka community, which also has "unique capability" as the only RAF amphib RW asset and as the only meaningful lift platform in theatre. A few years ago the Chinook wing had a considerable spread of experience (various environmental / amphib / TLT etc). The attrition of experienced personnel and the paucity of cabs has resulted in a veneer thin level of experience that when (if) they get a rest will take years (and a lot of money) to recover. Skill fade indeed....
Replacing Harrier with Tonka seems a lot better than replacing Chinook with Merlin / Carson Queenies. The latter complement, they cannot replace.
I do wonder, in a cynical moment, how much of this is meant at getting the NSW out of Afghanistan....
Replacing Harrier with Tonka seems a lot better than replacing Chinook with Merlin / Carson Queenies. The latter complement, they cannot replace.
I do wonder, in a cynical moment, how much of this is meant at getting the NSW out of Afghanistan....
How very forward thinking!
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Two new RN aircraft carriers -- nice to have, but not the UK's top military spending priority.
Furthermore, I detect an additional motive in this enthusiam for getting the Harriers back to the aircraft carriers: to get the UK out of Afghanistan, just have nice RN exercises far away from all that nasty war.
Furthermore, I detect an additional motive in this enthusiam for getting the Harriers back to the aircraft carriers: to get the UK out of Afghanistan, just have nice RN exercises far away from all that nasty war.
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Elmo you plonker,
The RN desperately does not want the Harriers out of Afghanistan.
Once they are out and not displaying their usefullness on a daily basis, they are a lot easier to quietly dispose of by the RAF under some "costly", "old" , "outdated", "short range" type bollocks arguments.
This is the opening gambit of a beautifully cynical plan to wipe out the RN's fixed wing fleet for good.
The RAF may have lost a very hard fought battle to scupper the carriers, but they have not given up the war...........
The RN desperately does not want the Harriers out of Afghanistan.
Once they are out and not displaying their usefullness on a daily basis, they are a lot easier to quietly dispose of by the RAF under some "costly", "old" , "outdated", "short range" type bollocks arguments.
This is the opening gambit of a beautifully cynical plan to wipe out the RN's fixed wing fleet for good.
The RAF may have lost a very hard fought battle to scupper the carriers, but they have not given up the war...........
Tourist
Can't fault your first line!
Getting rid of FW FAA would not be good for either Service and those kind of politics will result in everyone losing out. End of the day who cares what colour cloth the pilots wear as long as it is the best pilots suitable filling those cockpits - being selected, or only available, for Harrier because you are Dark Blue is wrong. Similarly, Typhoon and Tornado only being available to light blue is also wrong - how many gapped cockpits are there? Howabout each Valley course being judged on the overall merits of the students - if the best available for Harrier (or JCA) happen to be all dark blue or all light blue or a mix of differing amounts so what! If a dark blue student is not making the grade for Harrier/JCA but is good enough to graduate onto another (RAF) platform then let him. No different from exchange officers (and far better than exchange officers from non-swimming nations!).
However, still believe that pulling the Harriers out will allow people to see the utility of carrier borne aviation and will hopefully protect both the QEII and PoW (and JCA) from the ravages of the current planning round. The more time Harrier spends on land based ops the more potential there is (for less informed individuals) to assume carrier aviation is no longer required.
Can't fault your first line!
Getting rid of FW FAA would not be good for either Service and those kind of politics will result in everyone losing out. End of the day who cares what colour cloth the pilots wear as long as it is the best pilots suitable filling those cockpits - being selected, or only available, for Harrier because you are Dark Blue is wrong. Similarly, Typhoon and Tornado only being available to light blue is also wrong - how many gapped cockpits are there? Howabout each Valley course being judged on the overall merits of the students - if the best available for Harrier (or JCA) happen to be all dark blue or all light blue or a mix of differing amounts so what! If a dark blue student is not making the grade for Harrier/JCA but is good enough to graduate onto another (RAF) platform then let him. No different from exchange officers (and far better than exchange officers from non-swimming nations!).
However, still believe that pulling the Harriers out will allow people to see the utility of carrier borne aviation and will hopefully protect both the QEII and PoW (and JCA) from the ravages of the current planning round. The more time Harrier spends on land based ops the more potential there is (for less informed individuals) to assume carrier aviation is no longer required.
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Wrath,
"Getting rid of FW FAA would not be good for either Service and those kind of politics will result in everyone losing out. End of the day who cares what colour cloth the pilots wear as long as it is the best pilots suitable filling those cockpits - being selected, or only available, for Harrier because you are Dark Blue is wrong. Similarly, Typhoon and Tornado only being available to light blue is also wrong - how many gapped cockpits are there? Howabout each Valley course being judged on the overall merits of the students - if the best available for Harrier (or JCA) happen to be all dark blue or all light blue or a mix of differing amounts so what! If a dark blue student is not making the grade for Harrier/JCA but is good enough to graduate onto another (RAF) platform then let him. No different from exchange officers (and far better than exchange officers from non-swimming nations!)"
Agree with you entirely on all points above.
Unfortunately I don't think the people doing the high level political backstabbing on all sides in the military arguments at the moment will give your last paragraph a chance.
"Getting rid of FW FAA would not be good for either Service and those kind of politics will result in everyone losing out. End of the day who cares what colour cloth the pilots wear as long as it is the best pilots suitable filling those cockpits - being selected, or only available, for Harrier because you are Dark Blue is wrong. Similarly, Typhoon and Tornado only being available to light blue is also wrong - how many gapped cockpits are there? Howabout each Valley course being judged on the overall merits of the students - if the best available for Harrier (or JCA) happen to be all dark blue or all light blue or a mix of differing amounts so what! If a dark blue student is not making the grade for Harrier/JCA but is good enough to graduate onto another (RAF) platform then let him. No different from exchange officers (and far better than exchange officers from non-swimming nations!)"
Agree with you entirely on all points above.
Unfortunately I don't think the people doing the high level political backstabbing on all sides in the military arguments at the moment will give your last paragraph a chance.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The more time Harrier spends on land based ops the more potential there is (for less informed individuals) to assume carrier aviation is no longer required.
It is on land based ops right now. Come April it reverts to naval ops and does what exactly?
A very powerful argument could be made for a capability holiday.
Tourist
How about each Valley course being judged on the overall merits of the students - if the best available for Harrier (or JCA) happen to be all dark blue or all light blue or a mix of differing amounts so what! If a dark blue student is not making the grade for Harrier/JCA but is good enough to graduate onto another (RAF) platform then let him.
PS to add: Relatively frequently when dark blue guys don't make the single seat grade on 19 they crossover to the light side and go Tonka... I can think of this happening in several instances in fairly recent memory