Wheels management off looks the falling like are... (Todays' word challenge)

Hey White, how many have you actually opened with dofus?? :p

The off wheels looks like management are falling...??? I don't know.... Give up!!!

No, No, No.
 

Some people are so dumb........................

"Wheels are like falling off the management looks........"

I think

So guys lets review your duty for tomorow.
Conference time MB1 from 10 to 12 AM.
Uniform plus hat
Own car or taxi, with your own car remember to pay your parking fees because more than 2 hours... Anyway it's gonna cost you.
13 PM debrieffing on PPRUNE, to share with your colleagues.
I'm so envious, have fun guys !:ok:
Just want to know how many no show

In response to Pools request a quick summary of todays MB1 meeting .

Approximately 12 line captains attended ( 1 no show to my knowledge ). DSVP/ SVP training / SVP Fleet / Chief training Capt A330/340 / Chief Pilot 777 all in attendance.

Attendance register taken .

DSVP opened the proceedings in an informal manner setting the tone for what was actually after a period of time a refreshingly open and frank two way exchange of information and views. The first hr or so was basically a lecture to the pilots of why the management now feels the need to meet all Captains on a personal level over the next 6 weeks. The senior management have cleared their diaries to achieve this goal. They make it clear from the outset that the meeting is NOT as a result of the MEL incident but as a result of numerous incidents over the past few months both operationally and downroute. Four of five examples were provided with many more apparently available . ( Mel tailscrape / recent 777 go around in MAN / Crew behaviour in KUL/ BKK Alcohol test failure ) were used. A short video clip of the MEL tailscape is shown clearly showing the aircraft tail striking the ground 3 times before leaving the paved surface. DSVP was also in receipt of the first draft of the ATSB report and is flying to MEL on saturday to attend a news conference ! It would appear the general view of the senior management is that there needs to be an immediate change in attitude and performance of a very small minority of line pilots who are letting down the rest of the pilots. The only way to help identify this minority of guys is to ' Carpet bomb ' the entire pilot workforce with a zero tolerance approach to most aspects of our day to day working life from our appearance infront of pax to the following and adhearance of sop's in an attempt to help identify the guys who aren't coming up to scratch. SVP training identified some changes which will soon be coming in . On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills . He also emphasized the reasoning behind changing the format of the current PPC and changes to Peleysis. SVP fleet talked about the conduct of crew downroute and levels of behaviour which are expected. Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.

In the second hr the floor was opened up to the guys to offer their views and possible suggestions on what had just been talked about. Frank views and opinions were exchanged on many issues including the perceived lack of management support with regard to Housing and personal issues / rostering issues / general lack of moral on the line and training standards of new F/O's . The management listened to the views of the guys and although they offered a difference of opinion regarding some issues I honestly think some things were taken on board and will be followed up.

The final 10 minutes or so was used by DSVP to summerise what the company is doing in response to the MEL incident ( setting up working parties to look into Augmented Ops / SOP changes for example) which they openly admit has been a big wake up call for them and to basically to tell the guys to get our acts together,act professionally at all times and follow SOP's !

In summary it is obvious to me that the Senior Flight Ops management are feeling the heat and are under intense pressure to explain a string of recent incidents which the President is not happy about. These meetings are designed to address many issues which the Flight Ops management feel can no longer be tolerated. The first hr of the meeting is a lecture from the Managenent, the second hr was definately an opportunity to air some current frustrations and discuss them in an honest and frank mannor. We were the first group of guys to be addressed and definately the "guinea pigs". Expect a slicker presentation as time goes by from the Management but at least they did present a small window of opportunity to address current issues which we are unhappy with .

Thats it folks - I've tried to keep it fairly neutral . Make your own minds up . Off to the pub to watch the footy !

Thanks dofus.
Sounds fair.

Thanks Dofus :ok:

Thanks dofus. You might want to start thinking now about what you'll say to Ed and Al when they work out which of the twelve Commanders at the MB1 meeting is you.

It's happened before. The delete button might be your friend.

Did they actually say
Back in school eh? The prefects will ambush you and hand out detentions.

Love the comment :}

People now days will say anything to keep thier jobs

Thanks Dofus. Great stuff.
Listening to the comments by most FCM in recent weeks, most of us are very very upset. Not only with the changes itself, but also the WAY they did it. Lots of unrepairable damage has been done.

After reading Dofus meeting notes, I don't know if they got the message. We will see the coming months how they try to polish up their image. The start is definately -again- not a good one. If part of the overall problem are the FO's then they could at least invite them as well.
Typical for EK's OPS management style : only half thinking before acting. :=

Another one: "Zero tollerance". Let's call it the Al Baker way. A big bunch of us would never want to fly for QR. :=

I hope for EK the aviation industry does not pick up too fast. The exodus might just be too big to handle...

Gentleman, the way things are changing at Qr for the good, monthly bidding, etc etc and going downhill at EK, maybe EK management is trying to copy some of QR pratices in order to not become the new Gulf Air of the region. Before you critize QR ,you should look at yourselves

Why the F/O should have a looooooowwwww morale ?
Only because of :
# Delayed upgrade
# Flying with high profile DECs (sometime only)
# Less 15 % salary average
# Less days OFF per month
# No way to commute due to rostering new restrictions
# Long term temporary accomodation (Yes it's possible)
# No way to escape from company accomodation because no more utilities allowance
# Documentation dispatch to handle after flight
# Not invited to meetings :oh: (joking)
What should be your morale after that ?:*
Good, you have a job :ok: Still...

And still a good one...

Some points to raise...
 

For those searching for things to discuss with management in no particular order of priority!

1. The worrying trend towards removing cash meal allowances on layovers and replacing them with ill-timed, room-service-less 'all inclusive packages'.

2. The knee jerk reaction to the MEL incident calling for the pilots to 'act more professionally' when the culpability clearly begins with management.

3. That management would be well advised to study carefully the article they published on the FOIP by Robert Scott - all of it applies to EK, particularly those paragraphs regarding management.

4. That eventually management are going to have to wake up and make some positive, pro-active changes or there will be more high profile incidents - which won't be easily solved by summarily firing those at the front of the aircraft.

And difficult as it may be, try not to yell at them while getting the message across. But then again...

One thing this thread could be used for is for FO's to bring up points that could help insure that that second hour of the meetings are used effectively, IE don't waste time asking the same ? every meeting

Gents,

If we are going to be discussing morale with mgt - lets make sure we know how to spell it M-O-R-A-L-E.

Back to topic:

I dont know how many times I have heard it said by pilots here in the past and now perhaps its happened: "...its only a matter of time before fatigue causes an accident/incident..."

24 hr layovers in GRU & NYC - not enough.

Two man crew to PEK - not enough...etc, etc.

The mistakes may not happen on said pairing - but cumulatively it will eventually catch up.

f.

For the Captains going in to try and deal with the EK thiefs , could you ask/deal with the matter on our allowences . The new trend that they now try to implement is that you will not get a cent on the layover but eat in the hotel. HKG, LOS already in place and I tell you its a mess.LOS the allocated restaurant the food is below standard and it takes forever to come to the table , 2 hrs after a long duty ! HKG you have to eat in restaurant and no room service , The crew was so tired , missed , breakfast and lunch and ended up not having anything to eat on the layover as the places where closed when the crew where awake.
So you have to break your rest to eat at the hotel times !!!

What next , do they want us to crash planes , its as if they are doing their best to keep us tired with low morale.

Modesh09, if all of these that you have mentioned happened on your flights,
did you not file an ASR? Judging by what is happening crew not being able to eat when the hotel wants us to and not being able to have room service IS in need of an ASR.

Safety standards have been reduced by not allowing crew to eat when and where they need to.

By the way F/Os are allowed to file an ASR as well!

Oz

More pilots fired...
 

I get it!

They are trying to fire all the pilots to save money.

Genius Adel, genius...:ugh:

Fired?
 

Have the MAN guys been asked to "resign" too?:eek:

'Oz in dxb' is spot on.Dictating when and where to eat is unacceptable especially considering that your entire crew could have done a ULR,night turnarounds in a row etc... just 2 days before operating to LOS or HKG with their body clock still in a spin.ASRs with strong emphasis on the fatigue issue may eventually get the GCAA's attention,but will probably take a while like in the previous MRU ( 17 hr ) layover case.Alternatively,falling asleep while eating in the restaurant,getting your ear skewered by your fork or burnt by hot coffee resulting in outstation medical costs or unfit to fly will probably get their attention too :ok:

Somehow through these 'conferences' I hope that the message finally gets through, and strong enough to get past TCAS and AAR, that the way we are being managed is not effective and complicit in any incidents we have.

It is a matter of perspective;

From our point of view (the ones on the line doing the job, rostered to the max, with numerous changes from FCI to FCN to FTN, on such a diverse network dealing with many different cultures, dealing with a multitude of different approaches ILS,NPA,Circling,PRM,SAAAR, on SR, LR and ULR flights), that somehow our skill, experience, CRM etc has managed to keep things as safe as they can possibly be.

From the management point of view (who do not currently fly, have never flown our type of operations to as many places so frequently with such a diverse compliment of crew) 'they' cannot understand why we hold them in such low esteem and they do not understand why serious incidents are continuing to happen.

And their reaction to these incidents? More of the same; more control, more 'training', more micromanaging interference leading to even more pressure on the line demanding more from our ability to cope.

To resolve this negative model from spiraling even further down into the hole that we all must work together to prevent, management have to look at the fundamental problems of the way they manage. This has to go above TCAS and AAR. They are the the ones responsible for the current situation and are the ones preventing any real effective change from taking place. They are either keeping a lid on the problems to save their own a*ses or unable to deal with those above them, those who are the only ones who can actually make change happen.

TCAS and AAR are responsible in my opinion for setting the current low tone of management. They are the face, two faces of management we have. But whilst they are responsible we alone will be held to account when things go wrong.

I hope something positive comes from these conferences but, as in previous meetings, we should be prepared to keep our expectations low as the disappointment is usually high.

Anyone who was there care to give us his recollections of the "lions and goats" speech?

Is anyone going to ask about Honest E's "Sooper dooper git-r-dun ppc/trainin(checkin) 2 or 1 day special!" ? If they are serious about training, then do it, dont shove Penesys up our gritter's and use that as an excuse.

How about Honest E's 12 day off monthly specials.... I would just like to hear him explain how you combine productivity( ulr hrs) with number of days off without fingering the crs system.

Just be honest and tell us to our face that the slight discomfort we feel is your fist. I am bringing tea and biscuits!

I do not fly for Emireates but have friends who do and am worried by their concerns regarding fatigue and morale issues within the airline. I had respect for AS in his previous life with big airways , he was approachable and read the gospel of openness and learning from others mistakes, I am sorry to say it appears he has become just a yes man to those in real power who do not know the front from the back end of an aircraft.

The strict adherence to SOP's appears to be the invitation and opportunity the guys have been awaiting for a work to rule. Why would anyone extend ,when at the end of a long extended duty you might make a fatigue enduced error which will end in your sacking? why taxy above walking speed ? etc , basically why not make yourself fireproof. It's a frustrating way to operate but appears to me to be the only weapon available to you

Perhaps as schedules slip they may realise that the big stick dosen't always work and dish out a few carrots

On tonights Channel Nine news here in Victoria the editor of the Sunday Herald, (tabloid) said they were going to reveal all about the A340 tail scrape tomorrow as the captain had told them he had had no proper rest in the preceeding 24 hours. If it is just a comment the skipper made in passing then there won't be much more but if he has sold them a story about Emirates it could be interesting.

Parabellum,
We hope you will report back on the content of the segment. You see, it has been so easy (thus far) for EK to "fix" the problem. "We got rid of our "bad" pilots, and obviously the captain wasn't excersizing his command authority by flying fatigued. It states plainly in our FOM.....blah, blah, blah" See problem solved and in fact more SOPs so "bad" pilots can be forced into our little box.

And remember our little briefing packages...."Captain, you are clearly at fault, it stated plainly on page 58 of 72 pages line 37 that (insert issue here).........You are clearly an irresponsible pilot." See once again we have fixed any problems we might have.

NEXT?:*

Have a read here, it is also running in the threads in Rumours and News and on this forum too.


Emirates probed on tired pilots | Herald Sun

WHOAAAAAAAAW !
Nothing to add.
Everything is in the public news now.
Best warning signal EVER !

Reasonably factual except for the crud about the reduced thrust takeoffs - industry standard and manufacturer endorsed practice. As long as the procedure is correctly applied.

You're right but,
same coment about the crew rest managment and the non punitive feedback rules,
It works if properly done ! Like everything on earth...:ok:

Unfortunately, I am really battling to see that these 'Conferences' have any real value whatsoever. I believe it is all one big ass-covering exercise on their part. They can state that it is an open forum for a frank exchange of views but I believe that is bollocks.

They are completely aware of the nature of our grievances, given that they are the cause, or at least the conduit from above. If they are not aware, then they are completely useless managers with their heads stuck firmly in the sand and no grasp of the realities faced by their staff. If they are so useless, then explaining the facts of life to them will be of no benefit, cos what are they gonna do anyway, having already shown their willingness to fire first and not bother to ask questions afterwards.

If they are not that useless, then they are aware of our grievances. Why have they not done anything about them? What good does it do to stand in front of us, pretending to listen and to give a toss? It makes them appear to be effective managers, getting to the issues. With their stated objective of ridding the company of the bad apples in the barrel, it also gives them the opportunity to identify trouble-makers in the group. The potential rabble-rousers. You will have to rely on the objectivity of these managers to decide who has a valid point and who is trying to criticize and undermine them. I don't believe they like criticism too much.

They have made it clear that the culture they wish to follow is a punitive one. Make a mistake, even an honest one, and you are gone. Now, why would anyone want to raise any issues, poke his head above the trench parapet and hope noone takes a shot?

TCAS and ED have allowed themselves to be used from above and there is no going back for them. They cannot reclaim their virginity. They have lost their moral status and, as such, are not to be trusted.

Their policies and archaic management style, forced on them from above, have led us to where we are now. They are now frantically shovelling the crap downhill, hoping that as little as possible will stick to them. Explaining to them what the problem is, is a complete waste of time. They know. What they're actually going to do about it is another matter.

We must never forget that their interests and ours are very different. They have had their careers and are topping up the retirement fund with a lucrative little pre-retirement gig. Every year they manage to hang onto their positions earns them a nice bonus. So they do it, whatever the cost. But if they lose their jobs, they lose a couple more years of bonuses and maybe that second beach house they have their eye on. Many of us were here for the career. Potentially for decades. If we are fired now, under the draconian zero tolerance polices, we will probably battle to find another flying job. It could mean decades of lost earnings and an enforced career change. Who has the most at stake? And who should be standing up for what is right?

Trying to Get to the bottom of things
 

I heard that 5 EK Captains had a meeting with Shk Ahmed about the lack of communication between the pilots and management. This would explain a lot, can anyone confirm?

Can any EK Pilot pass the FAA IMSAFE checklist?
 

Gents,

I'm not a Captain at EK, but maybe someone who is can ask the above question at their meeting.

Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotion

If a safe operation is the top priority, then why is the flight operations culture causing an increase in the above? As evidenced by the increase in serious operational errors, failed sobriety tests, attempts to limit sick calls, rumours of 11 recent sackings, minimum days off leading to chronic long term fatigue, etc. etc.

Any answers would be appreciated.

I've never come across that IMSAFE thing before but it seems spot on.

This is what should concern us most about our present operations. All the factors (too many to list) which are negatively contributing to each of the IMSAFE criteria have actually been exacerbated by management's response to recent events. Awareness of the symptoms is a good thing, but even then we are kept in the dark and we have to rely on rumour and speculation to try to determine the causes of each event and quite frankly none of the events have been fully explained as of yet.

Sadly the underlying problems are not being addressed and in fact these problem areas are becoming worse by the day.

It is the 'perfect storm' of flight safety issues. Fatigue, concern about careers and even some concern about the viability of EK, few options for other jobs which precludes people most negatively affected from removing themselves from the airline/city/management that is causing the grief and last but not least.... management who has not only caused most of the problems but who are now aggravating the situation.

If a company pushes way too far on occasion or if they demand a higher than acceptable tolerance of stupid policies such as crew rest, rosters, or lack of days off over a longer period of time, then it is a foregone conclusion that performance will decline. A little stress can be good but big stress or long lasting medium stress will inevitably cause human beings to do things they would otherwise not do.

It is fitting that human fatigue is called FATIGUE, because quite often the causes would have little affect if they were not present for long periods of time. Metal fatigue and human fatigue are similar; if you repeatedly bend a wire it will eventually break.... but up until the point it breaks, it might go unnoticed. Bend a human being too many times and he might seem fine until the point he breaks too. Minor or major errors in judgement, sickness, higher than normal alcohol intake, or irritability and disagreeability demonstrated by human beings are often symptoms.

The LAST thing that should be done, is to increase the stressors by firing people for an error in judgement, for which they had no previous history of making.

I wonder if the Gulf Air guys are wondering if EK is headed down the same path they followed years ago. Perhaps the similarities are not valid, but it makes me wonder.

Any news on this front?

Hey SS

What use is any firepower against scarecrows? They're only made of straw, burn a second, then are gone without a trace. A waist of ammunition.
Go there as a zombie, everything's been asked and whisked away, nothing more than on these pages, so sleep well, as I did.

:zzz:

Its just a way to see how the new car park works