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Airmann 3rd Nov 2017 04:55

Mad Middle East Pilots
 
Hello, as a new pilot in the Middle East I would just like to know whether the factionalism I find in my company is common throughout the region.

What I mean is that at my airline all Pilots congregate into their national groups and then there are some that form groups that aren't based on nationality but on some other common factor (this is rarer) but nevertheless as dangerous.

Each group has its own sort of heirarchy with it's leaders, generals, and other ranks. Each group also commonly has a few guys that act like embassodors to other groups and also their fanatics that are closed minded and difficult to get through to.

There is also commonly alliances formed and broken between groups. In addition there is a great interest by each group to gather power over the rest by elevating it's members into the management.

The end result I find is that the company suffers as none of these groups have the companies best interests at heart.

I don't really feel part of any group, nor do I want to join one even though people from my nationality assumed that I would join in with them, this has left me quite alienated as I have somehow broken the holy order. After all one must join a group and not joining one is the ultimate rebellion which all groups agree on.

I also suspect that this culture is quite common amongst expats in the Middle East. So it would be no surprise to me to find same condition in other companies. It's funny because it sort of seems to be the same culture as the harsh tribal culture of the Bedouins of this region, must be something in the sand that does this to people. Most of whom claim that they are above this sort of behaviour.

Anyway, could people let me know of there are companies in the region where this sort of behaviour is less common or are there any. Also do you find this same condition back home with the airlines there? Different competing cliques forming around personalities or ideas? And finally what's your advise for making it around these parts while remaining independent. Do I have any chance of making it here in the long run?

White Knight 3rd Nov 2017 05:33

Not seen this personally at EK:confused:...

KippaLippa 3rd Nov 2017 05:51

Hello Airmann,
I've found the same situation in my ME airline.
but, it wasn't any different back home honestly.
It is just over magnified here where you have people much more obviously belonging to nationality groups. It may be evident by the way they look, it is definitely obvious by the way they speak.
back home was the same, just more subtle.
honestly, I think that it has something to do with being humans.
They (!!!) are social animals. and they tend to form groups, and to create a sort of hierarchy within those groups.
pilots tend to be as human as others, and form groups of pilots.
being a troll, I tend to hang out with trolls most of the time, which leaves me very little time to get to know humans better...
but I'm digressing now.
essentially the answer is:
same same, but different

Regards,

KL

pfvspnf 3rd Nov 2017 05:57

Welcome to the sandbox,

Not only is this common , it is encouraged to organize based on nationality. The locals have their majlis where they meet every evening. The "second tier" Arab nationals usually have their own group quite often leaving the Egyptians out. Western expats are also sub divided, Eastern Europeans being considered as inferior . If you are black , Pakistani or any sort of Asian don't expect to get any sort of respect right away unless you have lots and lots of money.

This isn't EK , this is just how the gulf has operated for years and years. Things ain't going to change anytime soon .

Airmann 3rd Nov 2017 06:28

Just to clarify I'm not at EK. Yes I figured it's just human nature. But it would be nice to work somewhere where there was just one group and that is everyone.

Probably just idealistic thinking. Since the beginning of time humans have have congregated into groups. Either religious, nationalistic, ethnic etc. And then competed with each other for supremacy.

I guess I just believed that Pilots were worldly wise and are enough of these things not to fall into this trap. But I guess it's not the case.

I've been considering applying for Emirates recently. But someone has advised me that beyond the issues at the airline the lifestyle in Dubai tends to make people quite stuck up and compete like crazy for status. Is this true.

Also, hows the atmosphere between colleagues in the flight deck I was in an immigration line a while ago with some Emirates Pilots in front of us. Neither one of them would acknowledge us pilots from another airline after we greeted them. No reply. Is this common? It was two captains and an FO. The FO nodded but looked scared. Made me a bit worried

Monarch Man 3rd Nov 2017 06:46

Ive always found the Spanish speakers to be a bit of a tribe. So do the southern hemisphere Portugese speakers, they can be quite a fickle bunch. As for the rest, well us Brits put many to shame with our inflated sense of the failed empire, but not quite as bad as the Ozmates.
All of course at EK haha.

Big Enos Burdette 3rd Nov 2017 09:55

The Gulf is multinational, it's definitely not multicultural.

Normal human behaviour.

ruserious 3rd Nov 2017 12:30

I kind of like the fact that every one of my close friends is a different nationality and yet we are remarkably alike when it comes to mentality, behaviour and culture

Black Pudding 3rd Nov 2017 13:49

The only advice I can give you is keep a big distance from everyone and anyone who is negative and does nothing but complain, either about their company, where they live, or the region.

Also, if ever you're invited to anything, always try and make the effort to go and meet new people. If you keep refusing to make an effort, others will simply stop inviting you.

If you hear anyone complaining, simply ask "why are you still hear"

Airmann 3rd Nov 2017 14:18


Originally Posted by Black Pudding (Post 9945423)
The only advice I can give you is keep a big distance from everyone and anyone who is negative and does nothing but complain, either about their company, where they live, or the region.

Also, if ever you're invited to anything, always try and make the effort to go and meet new people. If you keep refusing to make an effort, others will simply stop inviting you.

If you hear anyone complaining, simply ask "why are you still hear"

Thanks for that advice. But at the stage in my career that I'm at now speaking to people that way will build up way too many enemies. I find that most people like to use us subalterns as a listening post to vent their frustrations but don't want any advise that could make them look or seem stupid/foolish. Although we could do just that.

One of the big issues I have is that I am an expat but I've grown up in the middle East. I have experienced this environment for the past 25 years but have not participated in the work environment. Having now entered the workplace I am faced with the same old sad story of newly arrived expats venting the same old frustrations I've seen and endured for many a year and have come to terms with. But this doesn't mean a thing as I am supposed to sit and listen quietly while the chap goes on like he's the first ever expat to reach these shores while I nod my head at his unquestionable wisdom and foresight.

jack schidt 3rd Nov 2017 14:50


Originally Posted by Airmann (Post 9945451)
Thanks for that advice. But at the stage in my career that I'm at now speaking to people that way will build up way too many enemies. I find that most people like to use us subalterns as a listening post to vent their frustrations but don't want any advise that could make them look or seem stupid/foolish. Although we could do just that.

One of the big issues I have is that I am an expat but I've grown up in the middle East. I have experienced this environment for the past 25 years but have not participated in the work environment. Having now entered the workplace I am faced with the same old sad story of newly arrived expats venting the same old frustrations I've seen and endured for many a year and have come to terms with. But this doesn't mean a thing as I am supposed to sit and listen quietly while the chap goes on like he's the first ever expat to reach these shores while I nod my head at his unquestionable wisdom and foresight.

Airmann, respectfully I say that you have not experienced ďthe other sideĒ so you do not have the knowledge or understanding to comment appropriately on this.

J

Airmann 3rd Nov 2017 14:54


Originally Posted by jack schidt (Post 9945496)
Airmann, respectfully I say that you have not experienced ďthe other sideĒ so you do not have the knowledge or understanding to comment appropriately on this.

J

By the other side do you mean the left seat or being a new expat in the gulf?

Black Pudding 3rd Nov 2017 15:37

Simply socialise with those you're happy to listen too.

In this life, there are boilers and there are radiators

I tend to drift towards radiators

If I am with someone who slags off the company we work for or the country we live in, I simply tell them to hand their notice in and in 90 days, do one. It's as simple as that.

I don't get paid enough to spend time listening to anyone who wants to drag me down. Being away from my home country is one thing, listening to crap I can do without.

EK-or-bust 4th Nov 2017 00:46

Interesting thread, Airmann.
Must say, never seen this in my 10+ years in EK, but then again, I took the full salary very quickly after joining and never had to live next door to other pilots and their families. Them folks over at Meydan South, East, North & Northwest might have a different take on this.
I know you are not with EK, but at least you get one off-campus EK pilots input.

Black Pudding has some sound advice :-)

iggy 4th Nov 2017 03:29


Originally Posted by Monarch Man (Post 9945042)
Ive always found the Spanish speakers to be a bit of a tribe.

That's because we speak English, not British :}

Seriously, I've been an expat for over a decade and the place I was treated the worst was... my very own country. I was an outsider to my own people only because my flying has been done mostly out of Spain. No reference, no friends, no recommendations, so I didn't deserve even a handshake. You don't need to be an expat or be in the ME to experience the "best" of human behaviour. It just pops out wherever is money and power (management, in this case), or a chance for egos to grow up.

What Airmann has described is carbon copy of where I am now, somewhere around SEA. Ever since I stopped hanging around pilots my BP has gone down points, I sleep better and I see my present and my future with optimism.

There is a life out of Aviation, just grab it.

4runner 4th Nov 2017 11:36

The worst Iíve seen have been the Thpanith. In addition to forming a mafia, they then further improved on this hierarchy by the number of last names they had or some other weird nuance that I couldnít bother to understand. Then, when it all went pear shaped, turned on themselves whilst making monkey noises and chewing off their own legs caught in traps. The thpanith...oh my.

crewmeal 4th Nov 2017 12:01


Each group has its own sort of heirarchy with it's leaders, generals, and other ranks. Each group also commonly has a few guys that act like embassodors to other groups and also their fanatics that are closed minded and difficult to get through to.
Sounds like George Orwell's Animal Farm to me.

SOPS 4th Nov 2017 13:40


Originally Posted by iggy (Post 9946076)
That's because we speak English, not British :}

Seriously, I've been an expat for over a decade and the place I was treated the worst was... my very own country. I was an outsider to my own people only because my flying has been done mostly out of Spain. No reference, no friends, no recommendations, so I didn't deserve even a handshake. You don't need to be an expat or be in the ME to experience the "best" of human behaviour. It just pops out wherever is money and power (management, in this case), or a chance for egos to grow up.

What Airmann has described is carbon copy of where I am now, somewhere around SEA. Ever since I stopped hanging around pilots my BP has gone down points, I sleep better and I see my present and my future with optimism.

There is a life out of Aviation, just grab it.

Could not agree more, there is a life out of aviation.

Black Pudding 4th Nov 2017 14:23

And here where I am, a large group came from an airline that went bust. All very nice people I am sure. Most of them live in the same buildings and have or had a Whatapp group. The problem is, they all socialise together and all keep in touch. When one messes up, there is the possibility they tell their friends only half truths or not the correct full story and the next thing is, the all assume the company is bad. When one fails in training, they all think the company has done wrong and it's a bad place to be and creates worry and panic etc etc etc. Whatapp spreads rumours that may not always be the whole story or the truth. It can cause unrest and unnecessary worry. One may get sacked for a legitimate reason, but tells his/her friends only half a story and says he/she has been unfairly treated. This is one of the problems when you listen to half stories. Until I hear the facts from the inside, best to just have a another beer and move along. Some of the behaviour, performance or abilities sometimes shown justifies being sacked. Sad, but true. I can say where I am, the company does make every effort to help as much as it can. Sometimes the situation or event is beyond help. When someone is told they are no longer required, there tends to of benn a run of events and not always only one problem or incidence.

I must say, most here are positive and happy to be here if anywhere in the region.

KippaLippa 4th Nov 2017 18:19


Originally Posted by Airmann (Post 9945034)
I've been considering applying for Emirates recently. But someone has advised me that beyond the issues at the airline the lifestyle in Dubai tends to make people quite stuck up and compete like crazy for status. Is this true.

Also, hows the atmosphere between colleagues in the flight deck I was in an immigration line a while ago with some Emirates Pilots in front of us. Neither one of them would acknowledge us pilots from another airline after we greeted them. No reply. Is this common? It was two captains and an FO. The FO nodded but looked scared. Made me a bit worried

hello Airmann,

I'd say your experience with these Emirates pilots has been rather strange.
very often we talk to other airlines pilots when we get the chance.
those three guys might have been a training/checking party with some issues.
or just tension.
applying for Emirates... think about it, but base your decision on some more solid information.
and Dubai is a lot of different places according to who you ask your questions to.
I personally hate it.
my wife loves it.
Go figure!

Regards,

KL

Black Pudding 4th Nov 2017 21:17


Also, hows the atmosphere between colleagues in the flight deck I was in an immigration line a while ago with some Emirates Pilots in front of us. Neither one of them would acknowledge us pilots from another airline after we greeted them. No reply. Is this common? It was two captains and an FO. The FO nodded but looked scared. Made me a bit worried
Might of been a local EK pilot or couple of local EK pilots who are not wanting to be seen talking to a Qatari crew due to the pathetic current situation in the region.

White Knight 5th Nov 2017 01:55


Originally Posted by Black Pudding
Might of been a local EK pilot or couple of local EK pilots who are not wanting to be seen talking to a Qatari crew due to the pathetic current situation in the region.

I highly doubt that BP; just as in any airline with 4,200 plus pilots you'll get your miserable sods but most EK pilots are, in the main, friendly types!

Besides, I don't think any of us give a monkey's regarding the politics between Qatar and everywhere else!

Big Enos Burdette 5th Nov 2017 19:10


Originally Posted by White Knight (Post 9946925)
Besides, I don't think any of us give a monkey's regarding the politics between Qatar and everywhere else!

True, but the threat of 15 years in jail for expressing your actual opinions towards Qatar might just weigh in there.

Sciolistes 5th Nov 2017 19:41


Originally Posted by Monarch Man (Post 9945042)
As for the rest, well us Brits put many to shame with our inflated sense of the failed empire, but not quite as bad as the Ozmates.
All of course at EK haha.

Yup! Not just in the ME, but anywhere Brits and Ozzies end up plying their trade.

givemewings 6th Nov 2017 08:06


Until I hear the facts from the inside
That is unlikely to ever happen. All you get from the inside is company spin. Then from the employees you get their version. Somewhere in between is the truth, but it is usually closer to what the staff say than the company...

As for the non-response from the EK pilots, more likely than not that 99% of the available brain function was dedicated to remaining upright after a ULR so there was nothing left for hearing...

I have had times where someone was standing in front of me speaking to me and I did not see/hear them I was so damn tired... in other words... the F word that the bouncy castle loves to pretend doesn't exist.

Go do 100+ hours a month then see how you do after a ULR flight... it's not pretty

Black Pudding 6th Nov 2017 10:08


That is unlikely to ever happen. All you get from the inside is company spin. Then from the employees you get their version. Somewhere in between is the truth, but it is usually closer to what the staff say than the company...
The company I am with, it depends if you have a good relationship with certain departments as to whether you get the true facts about past events

salamalecom 6th Nov 2017 15:09

I just comply with my roster and go home to live my life... i don't care about Pilot's talk, what or how they think, gossip and complaints all the time about the same BS... Do the same! Do your job and go home to live your life, make new friends, find some beautiful girls around, do some sports, have some fun, there's life outside aviation, i swear! I can't deal with so weak and limited talk and mentality ...

777boyindubai 6th Nov 2017 15:26

If you don't care about pilot talk than why post here?

sluggums 6th Nov 2017 16:25

Troll. Or one of those pouting instagram experts...

Talparc 6th Nov 2017 21:21

salamalecom:
better go back to your camel. You locals are really brainwashed by your f....
country!

fatbus 7th Nov 2017 00:42

At least he can cut and paste.

He is axactly what EK wants! Dubai is better than his home country!

Python27 7th Nov 2017 04:03


Originally Posted by salamalecom (Post 9948751)
I'm sorry guys, but it isn't the Companie's reponsibility to please you, to make you happy and bring some inner light and positivity for your shitty life. This is not your daddy's company, this is a job like any other and not a time for fun and celebration, and that's why sometimes or often it's boring: a job is a job everywhere, any sector, that's why it's called "job" and not "party". You choosed your profession and career, nobody forced you to become a pilot right? You should know all these stuffs, how does commercial aviation and airline jobs works for Pilot's BEFORE you decided to become one... this talk all the time, to come here to complaint about how does things on EK works and how tough it is for you to cope with that is so infantile. Again: it isn't Emirates responsibility to make you happy, to bring some light for you life and to please you. It is your job, your homework to be happy with what you have in your hands and don't bother people around you with your insatisfaction and negativity. *I'm not a "local", i'm an expat being treated here better than in my homecountry.

Kostakaptan detected

natops 7th Nov 2017 08:56

@salamelecon

How much is EK paying you to spread the positivity around, it must be a daytime job for you.

I think EK is recognizing the fact that most people do research the company they are interested in, and this is one of the feedback forums we as employees use to express our thoughts.

So I think EK is trying to influence the chats here, with 'somebody' who is maybe hired to bring the positivity back and hopefully influences the possible new hires' ideas about the big step to join.

Let us ventilate our thoughts, its pretty much the only place were we can do it, since the lack of a crew room ...

Its great that yr happy, but dont choke every thread with it.

We already have Harry who is pointing out the facts, most of the time, and who helps us seeing things from different angles. 😎

fatbus 7th Nov 2017 11:13

Time to avoid him! Ignore list is great!

mmmbop 7th Nov 2017 11:24

salamalecom

Emirates wants to be the 'Employer of Choice' and the greatest airline in the world.

And yet they treat their employees like children. They haven't learnt from the infamous survey where employees left Management with no room for doubt exactly how far removed they are from being an Employer of Choice.

If they were a mature company, something as pathetic as a Warning Letter wouldn't exist. They have zero understanding of employee engagement, nor how to treat employees. The fact that you somehow think a Warning Letter is a normal thing shows just how green you are to a workforce, or what a management muppet you are.

Fascinating that you talk 'positivity.' Exactly the line Management has been trying to spin in recent forums. "Quick everyone, think positively and all will be good."

Completely and totally removed from reality.

salamalecom 7th Nov 2017 11:54

Buy your own A380's and 777's, build up an airline and then you can do whatever you want, no warning letters, etc...

Neptune Spear 7th Nov 2017 12:14

What a Management A$$hole. It is thinking and attitudes like his that should give pause to anyone wanting to join this outfit and should give purpose to everyone currently at EK to get the hell out as quickly as you can.
Yes this is how management thinks and it is a cancer.

falconeasydriver 7th Nov 2017 12:27

Wow Saleem, you must be going for a record...how to annoy all your colleagues in one go.
Iím guessing you grew up in an autocratic environment, one that was rich with tradition but a little short on modern thinking, let me clue you up bud.
The way the ME works will last until the oil runs out, and then itíll be back to goat or camel herding unless that can be replaced with more modern and viable alternatives. Fortunately Dubai is well on its way, however there exists a significant percentage of locals and local thinkers who seem to think itís still the Middle Ages.
The upshot of it not being the Middle Ages is that talent can move and if you donít offer adequate incentives it does just that, consequently EK is in a downward spiral as talent and experience leaves and isnít being replaced with equally talented, experienced or skilled personal. The end result will be more broken aeroplanes, lost lives and of course the destruction of a viable and profitable business.
In essence Saleem people such as yourself will be responsible for all of this due in no small part to your unenlightened and rather One dimensional view of employee rights and empowerment, suffice to say a business built on the talents and efforts of expats will wither and die when those expats ply their trade somewhere else that appreciates their effort and values their input more.
Keep up the ignorance, it suits you.
The Irish Village was so good last night, I might head back again tonight, see you there!

Monarch Man 7th Nov 2017 13:20

This message is hidden because salamalecom is on your ignore list.

Ahhhhhhh, better

EchoKilla 7th Nov 2017 13:47


Originally Posted by salamalecom (Post 9948751)
I'm sorry guys, but it isn't the Companie's reponsibility to please you, to make you happy and bring some inner light and positivity for your shitty life. This is not your daddy's company, this is a job like any other and not a time for fun and celebration, and that's why sometimes or often it's boring: a job is a job everywhere, any sector, that's why it's called "job" and not "party". You choosed your profession and career, nobody forced you to become a pilot right? You should know all these stuffs, how does commercial aviation and airline jobs works for Pilot's BEFORE you decided to become one... this talk all the time, to come here to complaint about how does things on EK works and how tough it is for you to cope with that is so infantile. Again: it isn't Emirates responsibility to make you happy, to bring some light for you life and to please you. It is your job, your homework to be happy with what you have in your hands and don't bother people around you with your insatisfaction and negativity. *I'm not a "local", i'm an expat being treated here better than in my homecountry.

Insatisfaction? Last seen in 1913 Websterís according to google! Hmmmm I'd love to hear your PA announcement over any other of these so called insatiable (actual word) pilots you keep calling your colleagues.......


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