“When we can’t fit a square peg into a round hole, we’ll usually blame the peg—when sometimes it’s the rigidity of our thinking that accounts for our failure to accommodate it.”

The solution to solve this problem is:
hammer harder till it fits....

MS

Interesting article titled "When the error comes from an expert: The limits of expertise"

It uses EK521 as a case study. I hope the people in EK Human Factors dept are making their voices heard.

“It is all too easy to say, because crew errors led to an accident, that the crew was the problem: they should have been more careful or more skilful. This “blame and punish” mentality or even the more benign “blame and train” mentality does not support safety—in fact, it undermines safety by diverting attention from the underlying causes.

Admittedly in general aviation, many accidents do show evidence of poor judgment or of marginal skill. This is much less common in airline operations because of the high standards that are set for this type of operation. Nonetheless, whatever discussion about airline operation could have implications for general aviation.

There are two common fallacies about pilot error:

Fallacy 1: Error can be eliminated if pilots are sufficiently vigilant, conscientious, and proficient.
The truth is that vigilant, conscientious pilots routinely make mistakes, even in tasks at which they are highly skilled. Helmreich and his colleagues have found that on average airline crews make about two errors per flight leg and even more on challenging flights (Helmreich, Klinect, & Wilhelm, 1999; Klinect, Wilhelm, & Helmreich, 1999). And this is, if anything, an undercount because of the difficulty in observing all errors.

Fallacy 2: If an accident crew made errors in tasks that pilots routinely handle without difficulty, that accident crew was in some way deficient—either they lacked skill, or had a bad attitude, or just did not try hard enough.
But the truth is that the most skilful, conscientious expert in the world can perform a procedure perfectly a hundred times in a row and then do something wrong on the 101st trial. This is true in every field of expertise—medicine, music, and mountain climbing just as much as aviation (Reason, 1990).

To improve aviation safety we must stop thinking of pilot errors as the prime cause of accidents, but rather think of errors as the consequence of many factors that combine to create the conditions for accidents. It is easy in hindsight to identify ways any given accident could have been prevented, but that is of limited value because the combination of conditions leading to accidents has a large random component. The best way to reduce the accident rate is to develop ways to reduce vulnerability to error and to manage errors when they do occur.”

(I can't post the link to the full article because I'm 'not an experienced enough poster'. Can someone else post the link? Search for livingsafelywithhumanerror and/or 'when the error comes from an expert')

I don't mean this in a rude way, but there is zero comparison between a Western, monoculture airline in the USA and an expat airline based in the Middle East. Completely different cultures in both the geographic and company sense.

Guys you just don't get it do you? Or put it another way can you read the writing on the wall or better still try reading between the lines....

This evidence based thingy is the airlines "official" way of weeding out a lot of pilots instead of redundancy. A lot of pilots who have been in the company a long time are a payroll burden. Best way to get rid of them ? Sim check them and make them feel that for the last number of years they have been doing things the wrong way and their skills are substandard - why this same training department in the past was quite happy with your performance ? And now they want to chop people because they suddenly don't have certain skills in A,B C areas...Ironic that all this comes at a time when companies need to downsize, reduce people and aircraft because they are in financial trouble ! Is this a coincidence you may ask?

Guys and girls leave when you want to not when you are pushed out. Take control of your futures and happy safe flying. As the saying goes Nothing lasts forever !! And for those on the other side, every dog has his day.

Well said.

I thought "Chop Checks" went out with the Ark. These disgust me to the core. Anyone can be broken in a sim session but what does it prove? Nothing. I knew a guy that passed a "chop check", so he was given another one as soon as there was a slot. That was so they could get rid of him "legally".

Surely the checkers have enough b*lls to see whats going on and refuse to participate. The ones that haven't left that is. If they don't, then this is troubling in itself. Or am I on a different planet? I admit being a dinosaur.

There is a reason why the wheels of an aircraft mounted with the torque wrinch.
keep em' to loose they will fall off by them self - tighten the bolts to hard they will break, and the wheels fall of - but blame the lazy bolt for just being there and not maintained and treaded well - it is for shure better to tell him how to be a better bolt and threaten him to be replaced if the maintance guy does not use the right tool.

There do seem be several tools on the 3rd floor.

What's the best job in aviation.
Left seat line pilot. No more. No less.
With the latest email lets see how many heroes want to join the checking department now. Pay per duty. What a joke.
The company has made the position a joke. It should be a well respected positions taken up experienced employees who are treated well because they are needed to train the next generation of pilots. This company has made the position a part time joke for anyone with 400 hours left seat.
Good luck to the new heroes.

J

I wonder how Dr N in Human Factors will react to the letter?

"Reap as ye sow".
Root cause analysis done.
Until the very top accept that a) The "All they do is push buttons and sh@g hosties!" belief is b@lls b) you cannot expect an error free company when you cruxify anyone who owns up to a cock up. It will only get worse!:ugh:

Like a lot of us here I've certainly experienced both cultures. And I would observe that a couple of expat nationalities are famous for making training (and flying) absolutely miserable. ;)

Still, I would hope that most of us would be able to survive an unannounced line check. :ok:

Voila !!! It isn't more complicated than this 🤷*♂️.

" YOU CAN'T SOLVE CURRENT PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT THINKING....

......CURRENT PROBLEMS ARE THE RESULT OF THE CURRENT THINKING "

Albert Einstein.

Of course. Surely you can agree that in a "just" culture, it's a lot more "survivable". (Don'tcallmeShirley).

Exactly what I was thinking. How can you task the same group that trained such bad apples, if you will, with finding and removing such bad apples. If they where capable of doing that, wouldn't they have done it the first time around?

Afraid to say there are many company's, not just airlines, suffering from such poor decision making at the top. It's not much different out here in SE Asia. We haven't sunk to ME3 levels yet, but we are not far off.

Good luck ladies. I hope you can keep all this intimidation at check and concentrate on what is important. Don't forget, at the end of they day, it's just a job and your skills are in high demand.

If there were a number of "incidents" on line, isn't it correct to address the problem ? Looks like SVP has addressed a worrying trend although, a bit knee-jerk, I agree.But, I have to say, a good review and a pretty damn good effort in order to enhance standards.


Selection is the key. If you need lots of pilots and there aren't many around, entry standards would be lowered. High performing Training Departments would expect enhanced training standards to be implemented because the final line check standard should never be compromised.


Oh bring back the glory days. Very tough selection. Bi-annual Base check. One combined with annual I/R. Line check, once a year. One classroom (really fun times) lasting a week, once a year. Cripes, enough eh ? ON line incidents ? Can't remember any.


Worked for one dreadful outfit where a "surprise" standards check was the norm. Could be on anyone, often no-one and was usually just to ensure that we all knew how to arrive with more fuel than we departed with. Mostly a fun day out and chance to bend the ears of the Management pilot .


A later employer delighted in describing the Training Dept as a "Service" department. There were very few "failures" but quite a lot of refresher training. Worked very well.

Landflap you wrote:

"Selection is the key. If you need lots of pilots and there aren't many around, entry standards would be lowered. High performing Training Departments would expect enhanced training standards to be implemented because the final line check standard should never be compromised."

There is no shortage of pilots - plenty of apps with BA LH DL etc

Nor is there a shortage of capable future trainers.

There is a shortage of mgt willing to pay enough for the expertise.

The new Trainers package - a pitiful case in point.

What Fliion said.

This pay-as-you-go trainers package is nothing new.

Mandatory viewing for all on the third floor.

https://youtu.be/lmyZMtPVodo

ACID
 

I would say even more
You should pass a TEC Quiz lets say level 2 with a min 70% without studying and an LPC without any prep on any given day - that's the job - that's why we called professionals - or would u go to a doctor who needs to start studying when u enter the hospital?


But this "ACID" test leads to the following:
if your trainer decides that u have missed one radio call or u have done one SOP out of sequence for a reason he does not understand or is unwillig to do so - the particular pilot is done. And we know our nerds. the word "situational awareness" is used in EK to any extend. If a trainer finds nothing u have prescribed any little step verbal he comes with "good stuff, ah ah ah yeah but your situ............" - tonnes of rules which can be single sided brocken and abused for personal disagreement - getting more and more intressting
the other question how many groundings for the "ACID" can flights ops possible take?

WOW!!! I would like to be working for this guy!!!
You are correct, all CEO's should watch this.

BDD

"Trust and cooperation". Kind of sums up the problem exactly. A very interesting video link thanks!

" Definitely not feeling "" in the Safe Circle"" here...................:sad:

I'm not particularly concerned for these 25% random checks... (I'm not thrilled)....but it most certainly does not have me losing any sleep.

I always fly SOP, and during Annual Line checks there are always some minor points that are picked up....I listen to them, I take them on board and then try to fix those minor errors.

These checkers doing these (25%) random checks are probably not particularly happy about them either, and I expect that they will treat them as any other normal annual line check...a few slight errors they will point out to me, I'll take them on board, read the reports, see mainly 4's with maybe one or two 3's (hopefully a couple 5's!!!).

Then I'll jump into my silver shark or blue German mobile and go home.

The guys checking you are human also....just do a normal flight (my annual line check to KHI is always very normal), and then I'll get some scores (hopefully mainly 4's)...and then it's silver shark time again.

I'm not terribly concerned about this.


Eternity.

Those that are concerned should be more concerned about themselves rather than the spot check.

Well said
.

If you aren't fit to pass your medical check, call sick.
If you aren't competent to pass a Line Check, study
If you wouldn't pass your LOE, study

Any flight you could do could end up as complicated as any one of these or worse. If you aren't prepared, look inward. It's only your fault.

I agree with fatbus on this one.

It happened to me without any issues.

It's all fine to lecture about being a pro and being ready and so on. Agreed.

But I'd hope any decent risk manager could recognize that being exposed to jeopardy where it didn't exist previously is a step backward by any standard. Even an Oztranaut can have a bad day, y'know.

And the patronizing tone of some of these "poo poo it's nothing" posts pretty much guarantees at least one of you is gonna eat a ****e sandwich on an unannounced check! :ok:

Oh the Oztranauts. Do they make mistakes? If they do are they admitted? Heard of rocking horse sh*t?

Those who can do, do. Those who cant...... you know the rest. Dont re invent the wheel.

SS at what point are we ever late to sign on? Personally I need something to kick start my brain at 3am, so I have enough concentration to try and wade through/filter 85 pages of useless paperwork

Even if they're not late...
It takes a second to find out at the dispatcher if the other guy picked up the briefing package or not. If he did than he's also waiting for you.
I like to go together to Costa and I always pay for both coffees...such a nice guy I am.

tz

''Tis a target rich environment alright

Seaman:

All of these manifold personal failings are summed up in their inability to discern that Costa is a vile, acrid concoction that bears not even the faintest passing resemblance to coffee.

I don't think most people have issues with line checks - planned or last minute. I couldn't care less! I do my job properly and have never had an issue with a line check.

The TONE in the email, however, is a different issue. No doubt most of us can see things moving back to the way it used to be - checking, no training and so some are, rightly, concerned.

I could accept it and actually embrace it, IF management stepped up and accepted some accountability and responsibility. But nada.

We crashed an airplane and almost crashed a few more.........and still nothing from management. Nothing has changed other than the threat to pilots regarding their performance??!!??!

There is no doubt that pilots are fatigued and burned out. I don't care if they had a layover before the crash or if they had 2 days off before their flight etc etc. The constant 90 hour plus months (my record is 110), small blocks of leave where you still fly your max or close to max monthly schedule, the day night mixes, ULRs followed by 2 days off and a night turn etc. is unsustainable and these incidents that we have experienced recently are the leading edge of the knife.

EVERYTHING in our schedules is fatiguing. The biggest issue with the rosters is that we never have an opportunity to 'recover'. Management simply ignore it. Ask the fleet managers why we are flying 90 plus hours a month and you will hear the response that 'it is not every month - you get 42 day of leave'! That lack of understanding goes right up the chain of command where it becomes a lack of accountability. I am guessing that is why we had the 2 senior VP's in flight ops resign - they see the cliff approaching. (If that happened anywhere else in the world and the civil authority would have stepped in to investigate.)

It is all too simple to point the fingers at pilots. To lay blame but take no responsibility. They KNOW the issues and solutions but this silo driven company is frozen in its ability to make decisions and to implement change as senior managers cannot agree and won't push the agenda because of cost and a lack of knowledge of the fundamental issues at an operational level.

The drive to punish while ignoring training, rostering, fatigue etc will lead to another accident. EK have been lucky (beyond lucky in fact) that Joburg, Melbourne, Dubai and Moscow did not result in hundreds of deaths.

Without a significant and fundamental change in its overall operation EK will have an accident again.

I agree. But to target them now is a tad late.

They should not have passed assessment
They should not have passed training
They (some) should not have passed upgrade
They (too many) should not have become trainers

In trying to target the problem only now, management fights the symptoms and still refuses to fight the root cause.
And by that way they admits tacitly that the layers mentioned above have more holes than cheese, management itself being the worst.