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-   -   FZ 981 crashes in Rostov on Don Russia (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/576327-fz-981-crashes-rostov-don-russia.html)

recceguy 26th Apr 2016 11:05

from Wyomingpilot (?)

Popularmechanics.com .... instrument flying and illusions for dummies !

Other articles from their website, next to the Rostov accident :
"build your storage station for your cordless drill"
"22 ingenious way to repurpose old junk
"

and then the ultimate statement :
"It takes time for someone to go from 'Oh, the instruments are saying this,' to 'No, no, no, this is all wrong!' and start pushing," Soejatman says.

Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.

Wizofoz 26th Apr 2016 12:14


Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.
Don't attempt to be a diplomat- or even a decent Human Being should I say....

Odins Raven 26th Apr 2016 13:59


Originally Posted by recceguy (Post 9356663)
from Wyomingpilot (?)

Popularmechanics.com .... instrument flying and illusions for dummies !

Other articles from their website, next to the Rostov accident :
"build your storage station for your cordless drill"
"22 ingenious way to repurpose old junk
"

and then the ultimate statement :
"It takes time for someone to go from 'Oh, the instruments are saying this,' to 'No, no, no, this is all wrong!' and start pushing," Soejatman says.

Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.

Recceguy... with respect:

You may very well be the best pilot in your company, the best pilot in your country, or even in the world...

But you are not nearly as good as you think you are.

And therein lies the danger.

If you don't realise that you could also be caught off-guard no matter how good or experienced you are, then one day you may kill many more people than have perished here.

Fly safe.

jimmyg 27th Apr 2016 00:24

I find it intriguing that for most of us who have too high an opinion of our innate knowledge start off knowing nothing. A year or two later, with a few thousand hours, think that we know everything. Then we spend the rest of our careers coming to realize just how little we really do know.

Those who might end up experts of course understand that an expert is someone who knows an impressive amount about next to nothing, a workmanlike amount about a number of other useful things and zip about near everything else.

Safety and learning commences with humility sprinkled with confidence.

ruserious 27th Apr 2016 01:02

Amen Jimmy

chapola 27th Apr 2016 03:11

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
― Socrates

glofish 27th Apr 2016 04:34

We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation. The danger of eroding quality and safety, of overworking employees, of cutting their training, of stretching all limits pops up at almost every accident.

This one here bears all the marks of the above.

Instead of accusing the real culprit and asking for remedial action, many of us revert to pathetically attack each other or flagellate themselves of not knowing anything about anything.
Funnily enough the same contributors who attack others for not being humble enough, for not acknowledging to not know enough, that each and everyone can be caught out and has to be vigilant and not too overconfident, are the same ones who run to defence of lowering the bar and accepting lower experienced buddies when others want the quality to be maintained, calling them arrogant.

Gentlemen, we are talking about the pillars of safe airmanship:
Good training, build up and maintenance of experience and a healthy and sustainable working environment. Everything the airlines try very actively to reduce and not your fellow pilots.
So pick your battle, please.

It is not feudally asking for a cushy contract if we demand a sustainable roster and rest, considering the findings of scientific research.
It is in the name of safety and health.

But at the same time it is not arrogance, looking down on others, or putting one’s self on a pedestal when we criticise the lowering of the bar in accepting even lesser experienced pilots and trainers, the required ones not applying in sufficient numbers and the experienced others leaving disillusioned.
It’s simply common sense and logic.

In this expatriate environment with no leaders, but dumb drill sergeants, where different mentalities collide, where different licenses mean completely different things, where training is overshadowed by dictatorial fleet and useless administration, where punishment is preferred to debate and learning, there are three things that help us:

Training, experience and a rested mind.

nakbin330 27th Apr 2016 07:37


Originally Posted by glofish (Post 9357507)
We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation. The danger of eroding quality and safety, of overworking employees, of cutting their training, of stretching all limits pops up at almost every accident.

This one here bears all the marks of the above.

Instead of accusing the real culprit and asking for remedial action, many of us revert to pathetically attack each other or flagellate themselves of not knowing anything about anything.
Funnily enough the same contributors who attack others for not being humble enough, for not acknowledging to not know enough, that each and everyone can be caught out and has to be vigilant and not too overconfident, are the same ones who run to defence of lowering the bar and accepting lower experienced buddies when others want the quality to be maintained, calling them arrogant.

Gentlemen, we are talking about the pillars of safe airmanship:
Good training, build up and maintenance of experience and a healthy and sustainable working environment. Everything the airlines try very actively to reduce and not your fellow pilots.
So pick your battle, please.

It is not feudally asking for a cushy contract if we demand a sustainable roster and rest, considering the findings of scientific research.
It is in the name of safety and health.

But at the same time it is not arrogance, looking down on others, or putting one’s self on a pedestal when we criticise the lowering of the bar in accepting even lesser experienced pilots and trainers, the required ones not applying in sufficient numbers and the experienced others leaving disillusioned.
It’s simply common sense and logic.

In this expatriate environment with no leaders, but dumb drill sergeants, where different mentalities collide, where different licenses mean completely different things, where training is overshadowed by dictatorial fleet and useless administration, where punishment is preferred to debate and learning, there are three things that help us:

Training, experience and a rested mind.


I couldn't agree more. Well written.

dubaigong 27th Apr 2016 07:59

Very well said Glofish.
I wish our head of training , chief pilot and TRIs/TREs open their eyes and finally act to see what could be changed or improved in our training...
Instead we continue with memos telling us to review several maneuvers in our manuals and get directed to review the self-training Tools on the e-learning portal.
I guess they don't understand that reading and Learning is not enough for certain things , you need PRACTICE and to repeat several time the same maneuver if you want to be proficient the day you don't expect it and it happens.
I guess this is too far away for their understanding on how things work in real life.

Talparc 27th Apr 2016 08:13

Glofish:
excellent post, that is exactly the problem!

dubaigong:
excellent comment , remember you get a warning during training if you have to repeat several time the same maneuver e.g. cross wind landings. MM knows about it and keeps quite! What a great troll!

framer 27th Apr 2016 08:23


We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation.
A great opener for the best post I have read in a long time.
You have summed it all up perfectly Glofish.

self-training Tools on the e-learning portal.
It's a joke ain't it?
And even worse than the Airlines who pretend they believe it is effective, the XAA's who sign off on it.
I've just about had enough of fighting it.

Otto Throttle 27th Apr 2016 09:19

Glider 7,

There is no recording of the almost inevitable conversation between the crew and NCC. Apparently there was a "system failure" in the days immediately prior to the accident, so any evidence would have to come from the CVR.

SOPS 27th Apr 2016 09:54

Excellent post glofish, post of the year.


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