Emirates working conditions.....
 

Can some of you sum up the current state of this airline for a first timer on the site?

I'm in North America right now keepin a peek on things in the industry. What's happening to this great company? If they want to expand so much, why are the working conditions sounding so undesirable?

Thanks

2 words.

Greed.....Arrogance

Couldn't put it any better than those two words from TransitCheck.

They have until May to sort things out. That's their annual opportunity to adjust terms, conditions, pay and with it staff moral.

The news about how desperately short of crew we are has apparently now reached management level, after a 3 year or so delay. There's a mad push to now get enough people recruited before May so they don't have to try to keep current staff from quitting. We received what must have been a joke email from the head of recruitment last week saying 'we have roadshows in the following locations...why not recommend us to your friends?' We all had a good laugh at that.

I've never flown with so many colleagues who are either serving their notice period or waiting to resign - and trust me if there isn't a huge improvement in May then they're gone.

The biggest issues Emirates have right now are:

1. They've not in their history had so many people leaving, and this at a time when they've not ever needed to recruit so many
2. Pilots finally have options - American's can leave to go to good deals back home, Europeans can go to a better deal with several low cost carriers and everyone else can head East for bumper pay packages - hey if you're going to be a mercenary why not get the best money?!

It's all about May. They need to give a decent pay rise- around 10% in my opinion, an appropriate profit share - all things considered (profit forecast and cost of fuel) even 18 weeks would seem to be on the low side and most importantly they need to stop taking things away and treat all staff with respect.

Alan Pardew

What Alan said, for a start.

Because they are left with corrupted managers who know that they will take the money and leave. Nobody will be held responsible so why should they care? System is too big, there is no individual responsibility anymore and managers are abusing this fact.

Nobody cares about the working conditions, people or the company. It's a cow to milk and leave her to die in the desert.

Emirates is a real face of humanity when nobody is watching and when there is no control of the law. People turn to be cruel, lying and greedy bastards then.

Slavery mentality and fear culture contribute a lot to this state of the company. People are told that they should be proud to work for EK and happy to have a job. I even had a manager who told us that we "begged to work for Emirates" and that we "have to ******* smile", otherwise "there are thousands waiting for our job".

Employees are held under some sort of emotional and psychological blackmail. Managers know that in this part of the world they can always find another poor soul to work more for less and to put up with abuse and bullying.

Never forget that this part of the world never went through human and labour rights evolution phase, so locals are not even aware of them, while this presents a good excuse for western managers to seat, do nothing and get huge salaries and benefits.

So, that connection between expansion and working conditions doesn't really apply on EK. Until someone forbids them to fly due to human and labour rights violations or nobody wants to fly with them anymore due to better quality of service in other ME carriers or something terrible happens due to negligence of safety rules and demotivation and fatigue of people responsible for safety. It will be too late then though.

Emirates Airline presents everything that went wrong in today's superficial, stupid, selfish and profit oriented capitalistic world. The problem with stupidity is that it always unconsciously destroys itself at the end.

I hope that I am proved wrong but I suspect things will only improve to the extent necessary, once we see aircraft parked up due to there being not enough crew to fly the schedule.

I believe this for two reasons. Firstly our senior management display a level of arrogance that is galling whilst their judgement is clouded by the perception that our 'brand' is powerful and robust enough to survive unblemished. Middle management will do all that they can to keep the operation running in what ever way, so that they can protect their own jobs.

The eye has well and truly been taken off the ball. One one hand we have individuals in the Funny Farm who are salivating at the thought of deciding which sports events to sponsor next while on the other hand, we have loyal Skywards members who are complaining at the constant deterioration of the the on board product, which is compounded by exhausted and demotivated cabin crew. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

:confused: I never would have imagined that Emirates would fall apart in this way. I guess Qatar will be next.

They need to give a decent pay rise- around 10%

In the last 2 years we have been "granted" 3% , this as many will remember is the contracted step but now appears to be discretionary.

So with the headline inflation rate at 15%+ that means in real purchasing terms EK has forced us to take a 24% pay cut. "Thank you so much!"

Sadly with inflation running at conservatively 15%+ a 10% raise in basic pay will still leave us way behind the curve.

The recent survey results are yet to be published and I strongly suspect they never will see the light of day.

I have always tried to be objective in my observations and criticisms, getting one's blood pressure up achieves nothing, but the current situation is a spectacular train wreck in the making.

Flights are being cancelled, so the slow motion crumpling of the engine has begun.

An airline without crews is an aircraft storage company nothing more.

In short, to original poster, stay where you are.

The fact that the survey results have not been published says it all really.

A 10% raise won't be nearly enough to keep pilots. In any case, it is less about he money then it is about the conditions!

90+ hours a month is unsustainable and the main driver of people leaving. Most contracts elsewhere are 75-80 month. They actually have a leave policy that works. They get treated well or better.

I won't rehash all the issues.

I doubt they will ever go back to a 76 hour month so if they don't increase pay 25% plus pilots will continue to leave. They will not stay when other pay the same for a 76 hour month and where conditions are better.

Keep treating the employees like they do and people will keep leaving.

And Trader, we are actually getting paid for 76 hours a month at EK. When they took away the overtime and rosters suddenly jumped to 92 hours, we did not get any pay rise, they just got a heap of productivity for free.

And let's not even start on no credit for leave, ground school, sim or whatever....

They think they have been really clever, but it's coming back to bite them now.

Just a question; are you required to, as operating crew, be in the aircraft for more than one thousand hours per calendar year (seat time+bunk)?

Leave the pay where it is, but turn back the conditions 10 years...
 

Honestly, I sincerely think the pay at EK is reasonable if the conditions were reasonable. The problem with most crew (that is pilots and cabin crew) is that they are exhausted and overworked. No pay can change that fact: you don't get less exhausted from being paid more.

In order to get our crew levels back up to where they used to be, EK should keep the pay as it is but go back to a European style pay system like we used to have until about 10 years ago: 82 credit hours per month (31 days) and credit for every duty, including STBY, simulator and even annual leave. An while we're at it, get rid of the flight pay.. Only that way a healthy and sustainable lifestyle can be obtained for the crews.
Initially this would lead to a big overtime pay for most pilots every month while we are still working our asses off, but as the numbers would go up, the overtime would be traded in for a better lifestyle.

Unfortunately, I am expecting the Arabic capitalistic solution to the problem: pay them more money and work them harder for it...

Kungfu Panda, Yes, depending on how many Ultra Long Haul flights you are rostered for. On the A330 you wouldn't get anywhere near 1,000 hrs (but would still be exhausted all the time). On the A380 it is perfectly possible and legal to do well over 1,000 block hours in 12 months.

Too BIG to FAIL attitude in EK...

Wasn't there a perfect example of what not to do/(BE) a few years ago as demonstrated in the banking industry.

This (stated above by a knowledgeable poster), Arrogance, is a result of self regulation. As was seen in the 2007/8 crisis, no matter how BIG you think you are, natural forces eventually balance even the arrogant.

No matter how BRAND MINDED EK thinks it is, no matter how much arrogance flows through the pipework in HQ, eventually the workers are making their feelings known and are leaving and others are not coming. Those that do come dilute the already badly reduced standards in both safety and service. It is only a matter of time before the workforce KARMA hits the public KARMA and they prefer another airline. My family members prefer to travel on other carriers now due to EK staff ticketing and the service on the flights.

Gulf Air was to have been the BIG player in the gulf, it failed and EK is setting itself up to be the Biggest failure in both Aviation and of all the Gulf businesses if it doesn't work hard to help get this mess sorted out fast.

I for one hope it does get sorted as it was once a great company to work for, now I wish I could leave sooner than I am able to.

J

Big Geordie Thanks for your reply. As I understand, all other ICAO contracting states have a Maximum of 1000 hours of total block time per calendar year. Could you describe the studies carried out by the GCA (whatever the UAE authority is) to ascertain that the appropriate safety levels would be maintained whilst increasing the minimums above normal standards?

So quick question.

If they reduced the monthly hrs to say around 80 or thereabouts, would that at least return Emirates to being a good place to work for or is it past the point of no return.

I agree that not having credit hours for sims etc etc rubbish and shouldn't be allowed.

I'm always tempted to try to join EK but what I read here puts me off. I'd love to experience the travel, equipment and diversity but not at the cost of my relationship or health. By the sounds of it, it's a given that both will suffer if you decide to join EK. It's a really shame because I would jump at the job if it wasn't so poorly reported on lately.

22K…

I think you'll find most of us agree the main point of contention (although not everyone) is the rostering. As one alluded to above, one morning back whenever, we all awoke to find our T&C had been changed from 78 hours for overtime threshold pay to 92 hours. And back then we were being rostered for sometimes 95 to 96 hours a month after this occurred. Someone decided it would be cheaper to limit us to 92 hours so we would never get overtime pay and except for this month of Feb, that has proven true. For some reason (shortage of crew more than likely) they've rostered many of us above the overtime threshold for the shortened 28 day month. Must be really short if they've had to resort to overtime….

So, to answer your question…. IMO, yes, your suggestion of 80 hours would be a GREAT step in making this place bearable. As many have said here, at the current rate of flying (92 hours) month after month after month, it's simply unsustainable to the body. It's mostly the lack of recovery days between trips and the time zone changes of our route system and the ever changing day time-night time zig zag that just messes your body clock up completely…. month after month after month.

Just my two fils…

Kap

16 months between leaves and 24 months of forced leave only. That will ease your temptation I suppose.

22K, quick answer: No!
They worked very hard the last 7 years to destroy ANY goodwill, pride, loyalty and commitment of their workforce. There is hundreds of other things besides the insane amount of working that need to be repaired. Even if they started now (which they won't), it's too little, too late. Nobody trusts them anymore. This is gonna be Gulf Air 2.0...

And the question White sausage is, why have they done just as you described?

That is a question we all are asking ourselves, aren't we? But I don't think that anybody cares anymore...

Even if they went back to 82 hours, even if we would get all of our contractual leave per year, even if they would compensate for all the inflation and put the pay back to what it bought before 2008, the situation would not improve .... because White Sausage got it all in his few words:

They lied to us and backstabbed us too many times to be able to get the motivation back even to the lowest standard required to stop the haemorrhage.
Most of us will leave, some earlier, some later, but all too early to keep a sustainable level of manning or experience.

Does anyone want to join such a party? :ugh:

I've said it before...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yoK6BzZOYxs

Why? The best metaphor I can find happens at the end of the RTGS day along with a pervasive culture of short term gain based around having no checks and balances in decision making.
I see so many parallels with the combined intelligence failures of the CIA, FBI and NSA that has led to calamity and collateral damage due to a lack of oversight and an over reliance on "data" rather than quality HUMIT, with how EK have pursued a similar HR policy based on negative interactions, fear, and of course the localization of certain key positions that places little faith or credence in their "employee" (resource) input and satisfaction.
It's now coming home to roost, and of course at certain levels there will NEVER be an admission of any culpability.
Airlines are a people business, if you treat your staff poorly, eventually the people element is lost and the business suffers, but it's only when you begin to haemorrhage staff and can't replace them that the bean counters can quantify the cost, by then however it costs 3-5 times as much to repair as it would have if you had engaged the staff originally.

I am lucky I have never been threatened directly by management. But I lived with the fact that the threat could come. It is a very strange way to run a company, let alone an airline.

I was very fortunate that my bucket load of money became full at the same time as my bucket full of poo,

Good bye
L

17 month without a single annual leave this year.....Don't even thing about joining that Cie.

Thanks to all of you for your candidness.

The irony of your replies is that my company is going through the same fuchery right now. Thus, the reason I guess I'm looking elsewhere.

We are a very successful NA airline, but the philosophy of what made the brand and airline so successful has been abandoned. Now they ride the coattails of brand and the market share by offering a fetid product. The employees are being nickel and dimed to cut costs of an already lean operation.

My theory is that the more successful an airline is, without healthy competition, the more the working conditions are stolen because "they can".

You good people deserve better, and so do I. Lets hope this pilot shortage reverses the tables on the corporate greed, and we become a true commodity.

Patience wins the race.

Puff

Hey guys, one more question.

With regards to the salary, is it true that every 12 months it is increased from the base by 3‰? I'm a little confused as the website does not make it clear.

Cheers all.

The 3% increment has been held back from individuals in the past as a form of management punishment for alleged wrongdoing during the year. There is no right of appeal for this and obviously it affects your salary for the whole time you work there, and your provident fund. It is far from contractual and could be withdrawn at any time.

KungFu Panda, the company say we aren't fatigued and that is good enough for the GCAA. Not sure what the crew who had a 12 hour stay in the hotel in New York after a 16 hour duty and then flew back would make of that but clearly they weren't tired either.

Was that a whole crew or just the Capt that deadheaded in.?

Whole crew, during the weather disruption. Summary is on the ASR reports. Nikita81 also has something to say about it on her blog. As you might imagine.

So they admitted to illegally operating after only 12 hours rest? You require rest at least as long as the previous duty!

12 hrs in the hotel plus travel plus non paid duty time ,probably made it legal. Don't know the details

Operated under ULR rules, normal FTL rules do not apply. Basically for ULR there are no minimum rest requirements. It could legally have been operated as a turnaround!

OM A 7.C.4.f. + OM A 7.C.7.f

Also OM-A 7.C.7.h

With apologies to those who aren't EK and have no idea what we are talking about but there is no way I'm posting anything from the OM-A on a public forum.

Basically the above references say: whatever we say, goes.

Thanks big Geordie, your posts are informative. Unfortunately at Emirates as I understand from another thread; The onset of Fatigue is indicated by an abnormal blood pressure. I would therefore suggest that you all Stop whinging and keep flying until you exceed 160/100. Disregard all flight time limitations as they are a burden to Airline profitability.

You successfully dragged me into it BG:

The real reason why Emirates Airline plans to employ 11.000 new staff | Truth about Emirates Airline Management

Sausage...almost a perfect reflection on the situation at CX!!i guess the major difference with the UAE and HKG, the latter was built on 19 century semi legal trade and the former built via the slavery and blood of others...sad that EK has descended into such arrogant chaos...the reference to arrogance referring to the management and not the coal face...we were rather hoping that EK would become the shining light we could all look up to..and eventually put the two finger salute to CX to and join...even with the EK road show pitching up March 1 in HKG, the best they will get would be HK Airlines and very junior CX guys....the experience crews could never take the cash drop, the Emiratie attitude and all the pathetic short thrift that goes with it..CX in the sandpit!!!