Nobody likes being asked to work more for no extra money, which is pretty clearly what the company is looking for.

The interesting thing about this is that there has never been an ultra long haul operation on this scale before. One set of rules and remuneration covering such a diverse set of circumstances is pretty difficult to achieve.

The company's point of view is that for part of the flight you are not required and are therefore off the clock, whilst enjoying free time in a luxurious cabin!

Obviously the reality of time changes, night flying with less than ideal rest opportunities and the pretty clear (as far as I know) legal point that the designated commander is on duty even when in the bunk make this at best a grey area. I am unaware of a fatigue study that covers well the specific Emirate's set of circumstances.

MK the cargo airline that had the spectacular crash in the northeastern USA some years ago as a result of performance calculation errors were operating with crews that more or less lived on the airplane. There was a captain's cabin and they would do multiple back to back transatlantic trips. That did not end well.

The company sees this as getting a couple more days productivity out of guys who in the extreme case could be doing 6 legs/days in a month and maxing out on hours. The employee's perspective is of an hourly rate paid when on the airplane, which in this case is going to take a dive and of a couple of days less time off at home.

Presumably the cruise second officer option used by a number of other ULR operators (Cathay/Qantas) remains a back pocket option if this does not work out. Indeed as some have pointed out the erosion of terms and conditions may increase attrition to such an extent that they are forced to act in a way more favorable to their pilots, but then again hell may freeze over first.

A small point, but Halifax, Nova Scotia (CYHZ) is not in the northeastern USA. (MK1602)

As far as where EK's "MK Moment" will occur, it's anyone's guess. But keep pushing it Emirates, and you'll find out I guess.

Not wishing to nitpick, but actually, we don't. At least, not always. It's quite possible for fatigue to affect your ability to realise how tired/fatigued you are.

If you are that tired, call sick - fatigued, and go to the clinic.

Lack of sleep 'is worse than alcohol' - Telegraph

And of course that does not take into account Boyles law, which means we are fundamentally hypoxic and dehydrated while resting luxuriously next to the wailing kid who is centimetres from our heads. :ugh::ugh:

"Rostered up to 105 hrs per colander month".... I feel the strain already :)

Never in 13+ ever rostered for 100+ , early days of the 345 had some last minute changes that provided big OT at the time.

Fatbus

The 105 hrs per month is the new future for EK, forget the last 13 years

Jumeirah Jane - it took me a moment to sift through your comment but that's clever and funny!

If 105 hours is really the new target, never before has an operation of the type that EK does, been flown with people flying those type of hours. IMO, it is a very dangerous experiment.

Show me a few of the 105 hr rosters, if it's the new norm than there should be thousands of examples . Dangerous for sure. And again ultimate responsibility falls on the Capt. I won't be me doing anything close to that.

The 105 is plucked out of the air by DH, I'd wait before getting you knickers in a twist.

Doing 90+ a month now. Can't and won't do more. Only difference will be that my SKF rate will increase signifficantly.

Recent wash up - new ftl's will not be implemented by Emirates. AS to announce shortly. Clutching at straws maybe but perhaps a glimmer of hope.

I remember when TCAS said 92hrs would not become a new target. Man of his word that fella.

Is that because they are planning something worse?

FTLs
 

As an aside , and forgive the drift, China has just dropped the FTL limit from 1000 hours to 900 this year. So that is likely to precipitate a ~10% increase in crew needs. FYI for those thinking of alternatives. Oh, and I know it's not all beer n skittles in China , but CSA might be looking at B787 to Perth soon which might help establish a Boeing Base in OZ. The 330 ones are working pretty well at the moment. Other bases maybe not so good , so frustration out there in that respect. Rome and NBO on this years agenda too ( for those EU types perhaps)

Woodja

Certainly if they are not planning to use the new FTL's they will try and spin it into what a favour they are doing us :}
Because they really care about our fatigue levels

Woodja, nbo? As a crew base ? Really.

I see what Ek is doing....

Spread rumours of 105h... Let the idiots( me and all of us) moan about it...

Send an Email that EK will not implement it and wait....

All happy again how great EK is.... And bk to 90+ hours but this time... ONLY 90+ hours....

Awesome ..... I LOVE EK... They realy look after their staff

Link for information concerning GCAA Subpart Q
 

That total is for Cumulative hours, the catchy one is 900 block as a flight crew member, that's why they won't use them. Gone are the "stick time" hours!!!

Still not sure how, as the operating Capt and legal Commander of a flight, your bunk time won't count towards your annual total.
One would be after all legally responsible and liable but "off duty".
Or have I got it completely wrong ..........again!:confused:

Guess it all depends on what you include as "duty". Seen some 92+ hour rosters + recurrent GS (8 hours) + recurrent sim (10 hours). Add the 18 hours training to the 94 hours on one roster I saw and that's 112 hours. Sure seems like over 100 hours of rostered duty to me.

Sims were the 2:15am slots, just to add a little kick in the balls. :}

The loss of credit for training means you can easily work far more than 100. And the loss of credit for leave means leave is really just GDO's now, nothing more.

Just plain theft from the employees, pure and simple.

Leaving only seems wiser all the time. :ok:

Personal experience of last 2 months 106 and 90 plus a sim! The 106 was in 24 days and is legal because at the beginning of the last flight I only had 92. Thank god they are limits and not targets! :zzz:

been made aware that EK is utilising the new rules to the max. Apparently some guys now have 1,200 hours block time in rolling 12 months, especially if you include time in a full flight sim.

Could any of you well traveled colleagues let me know if this interpretation of flight time totals is used anywhere else in the world? Here in Europe long-haul pilots seems to drive 700-800 hours max.

Thanks



7.20 ABSOLUTE LIMITS ON FLYING HOURS
A person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aeroplane if, at the beginning of the flight, the aggregate of all previous flight times:
a. Exceeds 100 hours during the period of 28 consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 hours;
Note:
Onthe28thday,aflightcrewmembermaydepartonasingle sector flight, and they may complete that sector, even though at the end of the flight the total flying hours completed in 28 days will exceed 100 hours. Consequently, they cannot then continue to operate as a flight crew member on any subsequent sectors during that day.
b. Exceeds 900 hours during the period of 12 months expiring at the end of the previous month.
Note:
The accumulated flight time for any consecutive 12 month period must not exceed 900 hours at midnight local time of the last day of the last calendar month of the 12 month period.
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew members for the purposes of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100 hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report.

125 Factored
 

My buddies schedule is 125 hours this month thanks to factoring. Think about it. That's 50% more than is legal in the rest of the world if it was done month over month. This is what people are trying to explain to all the EK wanna B's. You are sacrificing your health and family.

50% more than is legal in the rest of the world? What is the legal limit in the "rest of the world"?

Schnowzer, thanks. Still don't understand how the OM-A got signed off then. Never mind the airline's supervision by an independent authority as required for an ICAO class 1 country. More calls to the FAA ;-)

Gents

The new regs refer to a limitation on BLOCK HOURS, so if you're augmenting, you get the same block hour as the operating crew, there's no reference to "stick hours".

The duty hours would include ground school etc, the 2000 hours actually includes online learning etc, so this regulation should be more restrictive and thus enable you to catch your breath!!

Kingpost, I am afraid you are mistaken regarding the Flying Hours . See OM-A 7.20 posted above. They bust the limit of 900 by simply not counting all of them when you're augmenting.
That way they avoided the explicit wording that you can now exceed 900 hours and that only stick time counts. But that's the outcome. And 1,200 block hours is not fiction but fact.

"Rest of the world"
 

"Rest of the world", is 900 to 1000 hours a year.


125 X 12 = 1500


50% of 1000 = 500


1000 + 50% = 1500

FTL Limits Busted = Pilots Fatigued, Aircraft Broken and Passengers Dead
 

When will the industry wake up - why is damage control always so reactive, accepting change only after people end up dead??

It's pretty obvious that individual performance decays with the sort of rostering, flying hours and fatigue management practices that go on throughout the industry, and particularly in the Middle East. We will kill more people in this business as a result of the way it is run, particularly here - it's not a question of if, but when.

Fly Dubai may or may not be the latest fatigue-related accident, time and (maybe) the accident report will tell.

The reality is ladies and gents, that the operators and regulators have shown themselves consistently unwilling, unable and uninterested in combatting the issue. That leaves one entity (excusing the media's valiant attempts) - ourselves. For goodness sake, and for the sake of your passengers and crew, know when to say STOP. Whether it is on a monthly, annual or daily basis, we have to realise that the final protection in the system is us in the flight deck.

It's not right, it's not fair, it's morally and ethically abhorrent, but ultimately we are all gifted the opportunity to save lives in this business...... Sounds dramatic, but we sure have the ability to lose lives by getting it wrong. May God, or whoever your chosen overseer is, give us all the sense (and whatever remaining mental faculties we may have left) to use that gift wisely when the time comes.

in freedom

The regulation makes mention to BLOCK HOURS, not flying hours, which are 900 per year. The regulation is also overriding as to what is mentioned in the OM-A, basically you can run but not hide!!!