Silky I wasn't having a pop.

On the return three Crew (Unextended) can do depending on layover rest (18-30 hr rule) either 11:30 or 13:00
FDP.

Even coming back from KIX the FDP is planned as 11:10 there is no need to extend Duty by rest.

And if the flight time back from KIX was 11:35 with strong winds then every crew member would have over three hours anyway so extension is possible.

In summary the rest should normally be split equally as suggested in the fci.

If insufficient time exists, then only the "A" crew get the full rest to legally extend. After that its a mute point..do what ever fills your boots!

P.S. Not having a pop back either just debating the point!

I suggest all augmenting crew forced to take less than balanced rest to file an ASR so we know for good what the company wants.
Apparently one FCI is not enough to get rid of the I always did like this attitude.

Irrespective of all the profound knowledge of the OM-A and FCN etc, irrespective of the sleep management of skippers and the happiness of his FOs, we all agree that the FDPs are borderline when it comes to safety and that some airlines around here
are using them not as limits, but as guidelines.

In that respect it might make some sense to complain on these pages, as to raise awareness of colleagues, because the companies try to keep things very quiet!

There are however by far not enough reports made, by a factor 5 at least.

It is the only legal tool to try to improve things. On each and every flight where crew feel fatigued due to rostering and FTL, there needs to be an ASR and a fatigue report filed.
It's in our all interest, including SLF.

At least here there are no harassments to be feared, so go for it.

"Not in our favour"?? I haven't even read the fkn FCI and I can tell you it's not in our favour, bloke. No need for a frigging crystal ball to "predict" that!

In my nearly 15 years here there has been very little change in our favour and the last two years have been a particular pinch so I don't know why you fellas are even bothering to analyse this change. So much wasted breath - you KNOW it's detrimental to us and beneficial to the company before you even read it. So why bother?

Just take your extra fuel, fly at max speed and use full reverse and then you can sleep a little better when you get to the hotel. And for dog's sake stop reading all that garbage they send out!

Totally agree with Outatowner!

To me this is as a result of not being able to recruit enough pilots of the right quality, not enough pilots = make the workforce work harder..... simple!

I really don't understand the whole point. If the augmenting pilot can't get his 3 hours rest it means that the flight is to short to need any extension of FDP anyway. No change from what we always did.

Let's now discuss about what's heavier, 1 kg of lead or 1 kg of hay...

tz

Mr Zohan,

The point is many capts (including myself (See my first post 16)) were (are) taking three hours rest along with the operating F/O and giving the Augment pilot less (2:20), believing this the correct way to operate these flights. Eg DXB-PVG

If duty is not required to be extended by rest (most are not) then the rest should normally be split equally as suggest by the FCI. (nobody needs three hours)

Any flight (Duty) which is required to be extended by rest will be of sufficient length for all crew members to get at least three hours.

Basically rest should always be equal for three crew members on all flights.

If you as capt want to change it (reduce the rest for augment guy) on the day to increase safety (Operating crew more rested, which makes sense) then feel free to do so but it should be documented (Maybe) and should be agreed by all crew members.

Thats how I see it (today), but i'm open to being corrected.

This is not the way you should do it... this is the way the court will read it... in case of accident or incident....
Guys, there are rules and definitions, it is not up to EK to make them, but the authority asking you to apply them!....

All those rules apply to CREW MEMBERS, whatever "Augmenting" or "Operating"... read your books!
This is the case for the 3hrs rule!