While it sucks what happened, you can't go charging at a US Naval ship and not expect some action. My understanding is they gave out several warnings before firing, and the offending ship didn't respond or change course.

And yes I wish Ron Paul stood a chance, but unfortunately, it's going to be more of the same crap with Obama or Romney.

As an aside ironbutt, Ex380 has spent more time in a military career than his airline one. So, using your logic it would give him some cred in being " arrogant pricks".
Remember this Oiler had mostly civilian crew embarked. The protection team on board were contractors. It is action like this by contractors that put serving members greater at risk.

The Don

Flyer, they were not charging a USN ship, they were entering port and overtaking the vessel. Ever been to north Island when a Carrier is on the way in or out? No one sits back and waits, there nor here.
There is no published notice to mariners stating that USN or any military vessels are to be avoided by any set distance. There is nothing published about horns and whistles being the precursor to being fired upon. Just because some Contractor thinks blowing a horn is a warning doesn't mean anyone else understands what it means.

The Don

Ex380,

Seeing as your an expert on US foreign policy. What nationality are?.

f

Seat belts on, this might start to get a little rough.....MODS?

"If the Yanks did not have such an appalling foreign policy record, then perhaps they would not be targeted every where they go." EX 380

Was our appalling foreign policy such a bad thing when we saved your ass not once but twice last century? How many trillion of dollars did we as "Yanks" have to spend to protect your tiny little island so you didn't have to. How many "Yanks" died on your continent because you as a country were not up to the task.
Was this the same foreign policy you find so appalling.
Give credit where credit it do. You would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the appalling Yanks and yes that is arrogant. I am pissed off that we spent all that money and treasure for you ungrateful sap.
What did you do in the military X380?
I rememeber years ago a British general came and spoke to a civic group in America. He gave a lecture and it waas interesting and everything but towards the end of it he said he would like for the Americans to leave the continent of Europe and especially England. He had his points but someone in the group asked the general if we pulled out would he guarantee never to ask the Americans to come to England's or Europe's aid and send men and material. He didn't answer and moved quickly to end the lecture.
Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?

think ex380 is aussie, but will never admit it as he's a little confused about his own nationality when he's too busy playing American wanna-be riding his Harley Davidson around Dubai.

At any rate, it doesn't matter which country you're from. Some of the coolest guys at EK are both from UK, AUS etc... Its a melting pot of 3500 pilots.

We are one pilot group and people like don and ex380 destroy morale by their immature rants and generalizations. And I'm not even sure if don and ex380 are the same person with two different accounts. It would be sad if you defend yourself with multiple logins as if you had friends.

This would be a non issue if it was another NATO country ship. It sounds like ex-380 and don were first hand witnesses to the accident so I guess we should trust their discriminative views.

Why do you hate America so much? Jealously? What happened? did JFK controllers hurt your feelings one night? make you feel small? Compensating for vertically challenged deficiency? aka. short pilot syndrome?

who knows, anyway, life is too short to be so angry. Be happy America is protecting Dubai and UAE.

get over it and grow up.

well, I bet no one will get too close to an American war ship anymore.

You can spout opinion all ya want ex 380, but they are your biases, and your anti american political views are getting in the way of an intelligent argument should you actually be capable of one. Blaming the shoot up in Colorado on american gun laws reeks of ignorance. Hey there has been a couple shoot ups in a mall in Toronto lately, must be those canadian gun laws and bad canadian attitudes that brought that upon them eh? :)

Facts in this case are very clear. An american naval ship is not a rare thing in the Gulf, and approach one at your peril. They tried going with no force protection plan and some deranged idiots drove a leaky little boat loaded with lots of stuff that goes boom into the side of a billion dollar Arleigh Burke destroyer and cost 17 navy lives. Now they have force protection on board and very clear well publicized rules of engagement that aren't a secret to anyone. As a boat captain in the Gulf it's your job to be aware of them and abide by the rules..if you don't then you get dead or sunk or both.

They warned the ship off, including warning shots. If you are too unaware and unprofessional to realize that you are in danger approaching a US navy ship in a speedboat in the Gulf and ignore warnings then you really are a master of your own demise. No trigger happy "yanks" there, just simply professional military men doing their job as force protection.

And Don you are incorrect..500 yards is the Naval Vessel Protection Zone, requires slow speed and radio contact, and never closer than 100 yards and it's public knowledge. Look it up if you will. If i know that and i'm not a captain of a commercial boat then there isn't really an excuse for not knowing it. They were also 10 miles out of port, so it's hardly a case of they were heading into port and couldn't avoid them.

You can argue American foreign policy all you want, but at the end of the day if I had to have a country as my ally that most reflected the values in a world where my kids are growing up it would be the Americans. That's my opinion, but it really doesn't affect the facts of the incident off the Jebel Ali coast.

I'm probably not as well informed as you guys on topical US affairs but I take a simplistic view.

The Indian/UAE boat may have been stupid and made a mistake.
I don't know the conditions on the day but visibility and seaspray can obscure vision. That US ship does not have a distinct warship profile. A quick glance at the picture and it looks to me like a regular ship.
I doubt the UAE boat would have continued its course in the face of a clear warning. Even with the warnings given, clearly they were inadaquate.
It was not a terrorist attack and now one of them is dead.

The US ship firing on the UAE boat may be understandable, however, where I come from, a perceived need to defend yourself has never been a reasonable legal defense for killing innocent people(aka murder).
People need to be held accountable for their actions, even if it is understandable. I believe it's called manslaughter.

As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?

@tbaylx, I have to admit that I am not a fan of US foreign policy, although I agree with you, its a nice country internally(finances aside). However, surely even you have to admit that this cinema shooting is bizarre and your people are asking themeslves how this guy bought 6000 rounds of ammunition without raising suspicion. Freedom has it's limits and I have yet to understand what ordinary citizens need fully automatic rifles for?

Also, I should point out that in the UAE there is no requirement to have a skippers licence for small boats, so why would these guys have known about the 'special' rules of engagement for a US warship? There is no list of rules available domestically, so these guys would not have been aware of these special requirements unless they had googled them beforehand.

Let the investigation which will no doubt include UAE officials bear the results...just like any of you/us would appreciate if WE were involved in an aircraft incident....right?? I am a regular pleasure boater, and yes there are no "rules of non-engagement" available to us...maybe what comes as common sense to one, may not to another...sad for the people who lost their lives..

A.Crusader,

Please don't dishonour the millions of lives lost throughout all the allied forces over WW1 and WW2.

The US forces played a major role in Northern France as you so politely explained to someone who is 100% not British in your post.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. . .

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est,
Pro patria mori.

380,
Your obviously not aware of the strict protocol for a US navy ship to open fire. I can assure you warnings were definatly given. You can't just open fire at will. Whether the warnings were taken the correct way or understood is obviously an issue, but usually some shots across the direction of the risk vessel are given and if you can't understand what that means, well boating may not be your thing.
Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, the world and especially the gulf would be a very different place without US presence. Debatable whether better or worse depending if your country benifits, which most gulf countries benifit greatly.
And for the record please tell us which government is not completly screwed up and corrupt. The US is criticized if they act and critisized if they don't act, unfortunately as your government does it acts in its own best intrests, it's positions are more visible due to the fact it's a superpower and it has more capability to influence outcomes.

380, do you always make assumptions with one side of the story? Talk about trigger happy:ok:..

Ex380

If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.

No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated.

f.

I think the people of South Vietnam had a warm feeling of protection from the USMC not too long ago. Until the brave protectors ran away and left them to their own devices against the nasty communists. They didn't rest too easy in their beds. Perhaps we better not talk about that one eh! Quit the chest beating filion and grow up.

Vf,

The problem with the Vietnam war and the others that have been fought after were rules of engagement, which the western world tries to abide by. Unfortunately, when one side fights with a set of rules and the other doesn't it is a war that cannot be won. Sometimes it's better to throw the baby out with the bath water, instead of slowly and inefectivly trying to not injure the innocent, who pay dearly whether they are killed or just live in a war zone for years losing friends, family, and dreams.

Wow... where does one begin?

Anyone who lives in the UAE knows that Indians and Emiratis will NEVER EVER admit to being wrong... can't lose face... let's not even go into Indian competence... remember habibi, cheaper is better.

On the other hand... the US military in general has very restrictive rules of engagement... gotta maintain the whole political-correctness until the very last possible minute. Sadly, many American lives have been lost due to political correctness. 380 brought up Somalia as fail. Right... because of political correctness. SecDef didn't want to authorize tanks or AC-130 as it was "too high profile and too much firepower." Really??!

I won't even go into the political correctness BS that has taken place during subsequent actions/conflicts, but rest assured it's sickening and not worth a single American life.

I feel sorry for the guy that lost his life in this tragic incident, but it was an appropriate response from the US Navy given no response and time to make the call.

The local Navy liaison officers should in conduction with the local coast guard folks post flyers regarding do's n donut's when operating pleasure craft in the vicinity of military/civilian support vessels....and make big simple posters available at all marinas and piers...I wonder if they were trying to out run the ship and cross it's bow?? Most of us know this is a no-no, and to give way when any military vessel, US or otherwise approaches....apparently these poor fellows didn't...and one wouldn't expect them to....

drive 73, are these the same rules of engagement which were used during the My Lai massacre and the countless other events in that and other US engagements? If you need an excuse try something more credible.

Just everybody calm down and wait...the same folks bagging the trigger-happy Yanks, will be crying for help again in the future...history is doomed to repeat itself...

"Hole in the fishing boat sassy. Weren't you collecting for indians last Ramadan? How do you spell hypocrite?"

Don..

Yes and doing it again this year minus 1. Now what are you doing for them besides sitting in your a/c cooled EK paid for pad in front of a computer typing about it ?

EX,

Are you saying gun laws will prevent shooting sprees ?

Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws :ugh:

:yuk:

Don't know if he is however I am....I don't think the Australian government went running to good ol uncle Sam, cap in hand saying...oh oh oh can we please have 2500 Marines here to protect us. I hope sincerely the Marines don't turn up with that belief as that will really win over the Northern Territory locals :ok:

Chinese posturing in the Pacific , yeh sure however, so are our American friends. In fact, maybe the US should be saying a thankyou to Australia and the community which they will soon....erm...contribute to...."we need somewhere to put our Marines who we need to move out of Japan so we can maintain a counterweight to the Chinese posturing in the Pacific, can we please station them in Australia for training periodically, oh thankyou" with a tip the hat :E

I have served along side our American allies and I have great admiration for them however, the above comment just tippifies the stereotypical image that people have of Team America...F#ck yeh!

Cheers

They could start with the alphabet.

Thank goodness we don't have a union....the meetings would be....uh.....spirited

Only one difference between Americans & Aussies...

...we know we're not liked.

f.

PS. In the history of Australian military activity - the longest conflict they were involved with was the Vietnam War - 1962-1975.

Why do we waste money on a base in that dump, let whoever wants it have it!!!

Ex380,

The Vietnam reference was a response to a previous post on Vietnam. We were not the only ones there.

Look my postings generally reflect a friendly point of view though syntax & tone get lost via type.

There is a default reaction to 'yanks' as there is to 'Aussies'. Many of my good buds are Oz...and I think they get a bad rap around here...though they seem to believe that others find their country interesting. Just ask around on the Boeing who is a neutral...JFK or SYD, ...SFO or BNE, MEL or LAX, SEA or PER, DFW or ADL...yada yada yada...it's a no brainier to non Ozzies.

I think Americans get a bad rap.

Let's say we all had a choice of three different superpowers - China, Russia & the USA. Afterall its not fair to compare small countries to superpowers as you do not shoulder the same strategic burdens that we do.

Which system best provides for the aspirations of your kids...the Russian, Chinese or American system.

So why does all this coffee shop energy get spent on critiquing a democracy that has sacrificed so many lives for good causes. Our system is the only one that works well (perfect? No).., Facism, Nazism, Communism, Authoritarianism, Jihadism... All defeated or will be...Capitalism? While flawed if laws are broken (bankawankas) will always prevail.

But vitally, many friends of America know that if their sovereignty is challenged ..we are first in and last out. Yet we always get slammed.

A previous poster said that WWII was a long time ago. In America the 'greatest generation 'are still alive. It's not that long ago that we will forget....we will never forget...nor should the world...

f.

That was a joke right? You show an astonishing lack of knowledge of your own history. Too much CNN perhaps.

Ex, how in the world would don know there were contractors on board? This is the kind of knee jerk before the dust is settled reactions I see after a crash. Everybody knows what happened before the investigators even arrive on seen. Just because an article was written two hours after the incident happens doesn't mean it's true.. I agree contractors have been in the news at times, but it's war and if one side has rules and the other doesn't it will frustrate soldiers and bad things happen when guys hands are tied.
You may not like American foreign policy, but America has its own interest in mind first, just like your country puts its policies first. If they didn't you would vote them out of office. Why don't you look up and post who gives the most aid to foreign countries in need, who gives the most to charity. You may think Americans are dumb, arrogant, cowboy or whatever you generalization is, but in times of crisis and conflict I don't see too many other countries stepping up and taking the lead and until your country does there is not much room to critisize.
I think you are losing a large amount of credibility generalizing about Americans. It's a very diverse country, try to stay on point.

Exactly! Don't ever have them behind you - as the Brits and Canuks found out in both Gulf wars and Afghan. 'Friendly fire' I believe is the euphemism.

I was watching BBC and they were interviewing a local Syrian who was under attack by his own gov't. He was screaming, "WHERE IS AMERICA?" He was mad america had stayed out of Syria. Seriously, now America is the bad guy for 'letting' Syrians being massacred by Assad with Russian and Chinese weapons?

He didn't ask, where is Britain, France, or even NATO, he was begging for America to protect him from tyranny.

Very likely the same guy that was dancing in the streets on 9/11 is now begging for the "evil empire" to save himself.

Just look at the aircraft industry in Australia. i'd have an inferiority complex as well....

You are all as bad as each other, both sides:ugh:

The American military is merely a tool that is used by Washington to further its foreign policy and political aims, you can't level the generalisations on here without looking at the bigger geo-political picture.
That being said, clearly an innocent person died at the hands of an American serviceman/contractor due to a combination of negligence, arrogance or pure chance, in any sense answers will be sought.
The American military in recent history (the last 30-40 years) has undergone a transformation in the sense that the difference in the quality of the best and worst has increased.
Many of the enlisted recruits that end up in basic infantry combat units come from poor backgrounds with a relatively low standard of education. Conversely some of the finest combat units in the world today exist in the US military.
The upshot of all this is that for better or worse, the US military is judged by its worst, rather than its best.
In the instance of what happened, I have a sneaking suspicion that it will come pass that whilst the rules of engagement were followed there may be repercussions in terms of procedures and the application of the ROE.
Was it murder? no, was it manslaughter? probably.
America's biggest problem, when viewed from the context of being outside of the inward looking 50 states is that whilst it preaches Justice and fairness, it's actions say otherwise.
I have been fortunate to have lived in the USA, I have served alongside the US military, you will not find a more generous, noble and honourable group of people, unfortunately they are continually let down by poor leadership, entrenched views and a collective unwillingness to accept that not everyone views the world in the way that they do.

The closest allowed to a warship is 500yds. See link for info on boating safety.

In this part of the world, it's be a good idea to stay away from everyone. These guys failed to use common sense and found out what happens as a result. If you don't know the rules of the sea, especially around here, then you shouldn't be on the water. Ignorance is no excuse.

They attempted to remove themselves from the gene-pool in a classic example of Darwinism.

Don't let the Brits, Canucks or Aussies stand behind you, either, hey, M5.5...

Douglas Bader was also shot down by one of his own mates although by the sounds of this English "gentleman", this is no great surprise.


:rolleyes:

It is amazing how some people are so confident that the US Navy did everything by the book. However:-

Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen | Free Malaysia Today

Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen

DUBAI: Dubai’s police chief has rejected US claims that a navy ship warned Indian fishermen to move away from it before firing and killing one of them after they failed to heed the order, media reported on Thursday.
The fisherman died and three others were wounded on Monday when the ship opened fire on their vessel near the port of Jebel Ali off Dubai in the tense waters of the southern Gulf.
The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.
On Tuesday, India urged the UAE to investigate the shooting.
Khalfan criticised the way the US ship had dealt with the incident, saying it had moved into international waters right after the shooting. Dubai police will deal with the case as a “murder,” he said.
US defence officials said the fishing boat had ignored warnings not to approach the refuelling ship USNS Rappahannock, and that sailors on board the American vessel feared it could pose a threat.
“Since 2000 we’ve been very concerned about small boats,” a defence official said, referring to the year of a deadly suicide bomb attack by Al-Qaeda against the destroyer USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden that killed 17 US sailors.
The US Navy has been building up its forces in the oil-rich Gulf region amid mounting tensions with Iran over its controversial nuclear programme.
Tehran has warned it could close the Strait of Hormuz in the southern Gulf if international sanctions begin to bite, potentially disrupting shipping and world oil supplies through the strategic waterway.
Washington has deployed two aircraft carriers to the region – the USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Enterprise – and doubled its mine-sweeper fleet in the area from four to eight ships.
On Monday, the Pentagon confirmed that it had brought forward the deployment of a third strike group, led by the carrier USS John C Stennis, by four months, in order to further bolster its presence.

- AFP

enough fighting among the "good guys"

When WWIII breaks out, America, UK, Aus will have each others back against the Islamofascists and those who sell them weapons (Russia and China)

by the way, Russia sent 11 war ships full of Marines to Syria.

Many strategist predict a major war is imminent with Iran-russia-china-syria.

Let me quote some of the classics from this thread.

Baseless assumption.



A poor guy lost his life and there is no compassion for him? No thought for his family? Only one of the posters has expressed sorrow at the loss of life while many more chose to insult him. :yuk:



Heights of arrogance. Do some Americans believe that they have the right to poke their noses in the affairs of all countries? And expect everyone to make way for their interference?



Ordinary fishermen can not and should not be expected to go through the Rules of Engagement of the US navy.

The Naval Vessel Protection Zone is a term from the local law of the USA. In case there is no similar international law, other countries and their vessels can not be expected to follow these regulations.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

Dear all,

I have followed this thread for some time now. I am Not us nor aussie, but have benefited from The us support towards Europe thanks to their engagement during the wars that have affected this region during the past century. Having visited The military cemiteries in normandy i have grasped the tribute generations of young man paid for our freedom.

I Just wish the foreingn policies will always be as noble as in those days. It remains clear that despite the fact we may not always agree we keep very deep bonds and Will probably remain allies for many years to come. So let's sometimes agree we disagree and keep an open mind.

As naïve as it may sound, the beginning of lasting peace is respect.

Our US foreign policy is horrendous, and yes I'm saying this as an American. Obama and Romney will be more of the same, only Ron Paul was the candidate to seriously change things around, both in foreign policy and on domestic issues.