mac,
guess you joined a bit too late, you should have read pprune before you came over to the pit.

I think the third line is employing the use of sarcasm but I can't get my head around the first part....:confused: What about the fuel surcharge on tickets? (Even staff sub-load at same amount) That should be the last we hear about fuel costs, shouldn't it?An increase in utilities should be for spending on rent, nothing else. It is not an inducement. If rents go up and they want to pay pilots' rent, the allowance needs to go up. Simple.Spend it on rent then. At your own peril, though. For the most part, anyone contemplating doing their own rental thing here is nuts.

I might be wrong but I don't think the allowance was ever meant to be for paying off a mortgage if for no other reason than that the cash effectively leaves the closed system corporation that is Dubai.

Being of greedy nature, I'd rather see them introduce a Child Education Offset Allowance of 50% of whatever they're paying for the children of other pilots. This might induce me not to go producing bastards whose education they have to pay for!! (At home, of course, I obey the rules on that sort of thing here.)

profit share
 

Well this will get peoples blood pumping!!

Now strong talk that we will not be getting profit share at all this years due to fuel prices!!

And it is well justified because the worlds voted number 1 airline Cathay pacific also did not pay any profit share even though they made good profits due to the same EXCUSE!!

We will however be receiving an unwarrantied 10 percent payrise AGAINST MARKET averages whereby pilots are actually losing jobs!!And ZERO on the housing allowance!!:{ :{

So COP THAT!!!

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

Are the same people that last year said we were getting 20% pay increase..:confused:

How can they justify no profitshare when the target is the same as last year and profit is up by 20%?

And the way things are they will "have" to announce another year of record profit. (saving face and all that)

My guess: Same as last year. Payrise, the usual 3% + a couple because they are so nice.

It will all be revealed soon enough!!
Between 2-10 weeks profit share
Between 0-15000 on the UA.

Ballpark figure :hmm:

Hey if we are going ballpark then I'll have a go too....

0-12 wks profit share
0-15000 Ha ....dont care
0-15% pay rise
0 or 1 more ALT
May or may not be a change in class of travel on ALT..

Don't care, all will be revealed to the soon to be disappointed masses soon enough.

Mac,

Your obviously a Captain in a nice cozy villa..... think a minute about the poor F/O sods that are stuck in apartments and have no joy with the accom department.

It's a stupid thing to say that those that chose to take the allowance should be exempted from an increase.... what ***** planet are you from??

my Guess

4 weeks...I hope:(

No Pay increase there is one thousand Delta guys being interviewed as we read and they need our profit share to up the offer in salaries to get them to come. :{

1500 UA is still not enough...... who can predict how high rents and utilities will be in the next 12 months......villas in my area of town rent from 150K -180K and thats very average....F/O gets 95K and Capt 115K. Still short on todays prices by about 60k for capt and 85k for F/O and thast just the rent.....I hear utilities run at about 3k per month so thats another 36k on top.:mad:

The fuel surchage has more than taken care of the fuel prices....dont be sucked into that one.

TR

My good lord, what kind of villas do you all expect? This is where we all get so very spoilt here in the big sand pit. The majority of people back in the UK would never be able to afford to live in the style of accommodation that they do here.

You think we should be getting 180k per year for a villa. Look around Dubai and you can find plenty of nice villas for around 120k or less. You do not need to be in Jumeirah, Umm Suqueim you know. They may be handy but it's not really that difficult to get around town.

Who spends 3k a month on utilities. Get a well dug in the garden and don't leave the AC on 24hrs a day.

you are probably right desert nomad. but in and around my area thats the rents. and if its cheaper else where its only a matter of time until the landlords up their prices to account for their costs of living in Dubai.

I am in company accomodation and its very comfortable thanks. However the UA is not enough for those who have chosen to take it. Perhaps 3 or even 5 years ago it was very generous....now its not and simply hasnt kept up with the prices of housing or the rent hikes that have been going on over last 12 - 18 months.

EK should do something to make up for the rising costs of living here. Lets face it without pilots and cabin crew there would be no Emirates Airline. so why do they make it so difficult to justify staying here and working.

Money talks and if they paid money ...most people would see that as a sweetner to put up with all the hassels of being here and it would also act as a wee honey pot for those thinking of coming....DEC's or new Co's.

My guess is if there is a profitshare and payrise like last year ....... the pilot list at EK will deminish rapidly over the 6 months following the May announcement.

Exactly DN.... 97k (it's actually 103) is still 17 short.

By your own admission that is still not enough to rent a "nice" villa in an area outside Jameirah, Umm Suqueim.

K9,
Accomm allowance is merely a method of increasing the lot of a minority and expanding the gap between those that get and those that choose not to. The majority of guys who took the allowance have purchased and other than possible interest rate hikes their outgoings (mortgage-wise) are known.
My opinion is that an increase in housing allowance will enable the current home owners to pay their mortgages off quicker (a pay rise) whilst I get nothing. This creates different pay scales for those doing the same job which is what I object to.
Single or childless F/Os know they will likely get an apartment on joining and they are given an option to change to a villa on upgrade. Nothing has changed.

Mack, you can always have some kids and milk the education allowance. This will even up the remuneration scales for you..

The “majority of people in the UK” have the added bonus of living in their homeland. This makes a big difference to many people.

The whole point is to be spoilt in the middle east. Why else would anyone come here? I don’t understand why any sane person would happily come to the sandpit just to enjoy the same conditions they had back in the civilised World.

The only explanation for it is these few are either on drugs or still in the wonderful, starry-eyed honeymoon period.

The attitude of supplication regarding rogerings is simply beyond me.

And anyway, to compare the UK with this place is a little unbalanced as weather is a big factor for many Brits where it might not be for anyone else.

Mac you've lost me....

You are getting the equivalent if not more value than the guys that have rented, rented because they have no option than to do that. ie they don't have the cash available to put the deposit down on a place to buy.

Those that did buy stuck their necks out in a very uncertain market brought cash in from o/s either from selling their homes or divesting investments, and have done well....good on them. (at least their not making the fat landlords fatter)

Why if it sticks in your throat so much don't you buy???

I am at a loss to where your resentment comes from.

Just for a moment have you ever contemplated living in UP or 21st??? You would take any oportunity that came your way to get some space after that.

I doubt it very much
 

Tail Rota writes:"No Pay increase there is one thousand Delta guys being interviewed as we read and they need our profit share to up the offer in salaries to get them to come."


Gentelmen,

While I don't doubt that some of our profit share would be used to entice guys to join, I SERIOUSLY doubt that EK will be successful in luring more than 5-10 guys from the left seat at Delta to join as D.E.C.s here. ( I would think that maybe 1 or 2 might be closer to reality) It is possible that a number of furloughed F/Os could be enticed to come here. The job fair that EK is attending in ATL and LAX, while meant to target DL, NWA, and possibly UAL pilots will, more than likely, attract the underpaid and overworked freight dogs from the states: most of whom are narrow-body types that are much less qualified than a large percentage of EK F/Os. I would also be very surprised if more than 30 or 40 Americans ( Capts. and F/Os combined ) will make the move to EK at this time.

I welcome any F/Os who might want to cast their lot here but I cannot support the hiring of this round of D.E.C.s. The first group of guys that joined ( for the most part ) were the necessary result of a wind-fall of A343s that were not planned. The D.E.C.s that are being sought-after now have been planned for since the 1st big 777 order. When TCK made the statement that no person on the pilot list would be adversly affected by D.E.C.s, it was just an out and out lie. D.E.C.s have been planned for (IMHO) at least 2 years.

Sorry to digress from the orginal intent of this post but I think that there is a misconception that a lot of North American types (DL, NWA,UAL, US Airways etc.) will jump at the chance to fly a wide body for EK. Even after all the pay cuts and deterioration of contracts in the U.S., the EK package is at best a lateral move for a narrow-body Captain from most U.S. carriers----even given a sizable profit share and some type of payrise ( HA HA HA HA HA.....), the reality is that most U.S. guys will probably have to stay at their present companes until age 60 in order to secure their retirements.( or what's left of them ):{ This does not bode well for EK recruiting.:ok:

Good luck to us all

330

330 heavy says...

I welcome any F/Os who might want to cast their lot here but I cannot support the hiring of this round of D.E.C.s.

I don't quite follow what you are saying here. Do you actually think the company or a DEC cares if you "support" this round of DECs. Exactly who do you think you are?

7

I believe you may be very mistaken. There are probably close to 1000 early retired wide-body captains at Delta that have retired in the last 18 months. These folks left with some of their retirement and have not found flying jobs that make close to US$100K a year. Living in Dubai? Many have kids out of the house and do not have strong ties to keep them in the US. So standby for some major incoming DEC's. Same goes for UAL and others. Lots of experience out there with very little job prospects for 52 year olds. Say what you will about EK and how miserable it is, if one were to look at web boards at these US legacy carriers, you would see almost word for word some of the same complaining. And on those web boards, it is always the same guys doing the complaining. Is it the same at EK? I have no dog in this fight, just making some observations.
IXNAT

Is that you Mr Ed?

:ok: A757 says: "I don't quite follow what you are saying here. Do you actually think the company or a DEC cares if you "support" this round of DECs. Exactly who do you think you are?"

I know who I am. Who do you think I am? I am a pilot who supports the asperations of any pilot who wants to come to work for EK as an F/O. I will work with said pilot and help them in any way I can---just as others have helped me throughout my entire career. I cannot, nor will I support or help any person who pursues a job as a D.E.C. at the expense of a currently qualified F/O and effectively delays or helps to deny that F/O the left seat. I very much doubt the company gives a rip about what I think as they have not asked my opinion in the matter. Do you know anyone on the line here that the company has sought out their opinion? Have they asked yours? Please don't try to read more into my statements than is intended. I'm simply saying that D.E.C.s, sought under the current hiring drive, are not justified and will not find favor among the pilots already on the list here at EK. They will certainly NOT be on my list of drinking buddies!!!

And don, neigh,neigh,neigh, my name is not Mr. Ed

INAX writes"I believe you may be very mistaken. There are probably close to 1000 early retired wide-body captains at Delta that have retired in the last 18 months"

The number that have taken early retirement in the last 18 months and are UNDER 56 YEARS OLD is around 150 total give or take a few. (The max age for entry as a D.E.C. is 55 at EK) Of those, I very much doubt more than 5 or 10 would make the move here. This is just my opinion. Under the current bankruptcy laws in the states, when a company is operating under chapter 11 protection, the retirement assets are frozen and can only be released if the judge overseeing said bankruptcy approves. I doubt very much any judge will allow pensions to be paid out until an agreement has been reached between DL and its pilots or the company emerges from chapter 11. ( or the judge could allow DL to cancel its working agreement) As a result, I think guys would be reluctant to leave until they know what is going to happen to the DL pension. This being the case, I doubt the package here--even an "enhanced" one as is rumoured--would cause guys to leave the majors in the states en mass. I think our recruitment department has their work cut out for them.

Good luck to us all.
330:ok:

P.S. This thread was orginally about profit share--sorry to deflect its intent to this degree. ( I'm counting on at least 16 weeks----it'll take at least that to pay off my credit card debt.)

Sorry 330, I meant was IXNAT Mr Ed.

Don

Understood:ok:
330

Regarding DEC's from the U.S.; I find it interesting that there is the general feeling that only those with a pension to supplement their earnings here or those without schoolage children would find the EK package acceptable. That pretty well sums up the value of the EK package as a whole - not good enough for someone who may actually have to live off it.

Yes, they did ask me my opinion. Not about DECs, but they asked me whether I would like to have a month of reserve. I said no thanks. The (secret) results say that 66% of us voted for it, despite me still not having found anyone that siad yes please. They also asked my opinion of communications in a questionnaire. I replied and have yet to hear anything of the results. So did they ask me my opinions? Yes. Did they act on the answers? No.

INAX writes"I believe you may be very mistaken. There are probably close to 1000 early retired wide-body captains at Delta that have retired in the last 18 months"

The number that have taken early retirement in the last 18 months and are UNDER 56 YEARS OLD is around 150 total give or take a few. (The max age for entry as a D.E.C. is 55 at EK) Of those, I very much doubt more than 5 or 10 would make the move here. This is just my opinion. Under the current bankruptcy laws in the states, when a company is operating under chapter 11 protection, the retirement assets are frozen and can only be released if the judge overseeing said bankruptcy approves. I doubt very much any judge will allow pensions to be paid out until an agreement has been reached between DL and its pilots or the company emerges from chapter 11. ( or the judge could allow DL to cancel its working agreement) As a result, I think guys would be reluctant to leave until they know what is going to happen to the DL pension. This being the case, I doubt the package here--even an "enhanced" one as is rumoured--would cause guys to leave the majors in the states en mass. I think our recruitment department has their work cut out for them.

Good luck to us all.
330:ok:

P.S. This thread was orginally about profit share--sorry to deflect its intent to this degree. ( I'm counting on at least 16 weeks----it'll take at least that to pay off my credit card debt.)[/quote]

Again, let me correct you. Over the last two years close to 1000 Delta wide body captains HAVE retired. Many if not most are under 56. They were able to obtain their lump sums but now much of their monthly annuities are at risk. There are already about a dozen at SIA, some at Icelandic (Air Atlanta) some at MaxJet some at EOS. Even some awaiting slots at RyanAir. So when you state they are not out there, you are mistaken. The only difference I see flying for EK (what is posted here) and flying for the legacies international is living in Dubai. Most if not all of the int'l pilots I have known have flown close to 900 hours-so that's not an issue, many are former military that have spent years in places outside of the states-not an issue, most have flown all over into different time zones (with no controled rest)-not an issue, most have dealt with a management that could give a rat's a** about the same issues brought up here-not an issue. So again, please tell me why you believe there will not be an influx of DECs from DAL, UAL, NWA, Gemini, Polar, Atlas, Tradewinds? It will be interesting to see the numbers in attendance in Atl with the open house. If anyone is interested I will be able to find out.
IXNAT

No this is not Mr. Ed, but I do know him, I believe.

Well, let me jump into this fray and correct you. Delta and Northwest pilots are not the leaders of the American expat pilot bandwagon. They are in fact, the Johnny come latelys. Prior to DAL and NWA having trouble it was USAirways and United along with a few others. USAirways has/had 2000 pilots on furlough, United a similar number. Both airlines have pilots who lost their pensions and saw huge decreases in their salary. Many AA pilots also went out early in order to keep their lump sum. This all since 9-11. In that time we have a grand total of 48 Americans at EK. One was here prior to 9-11, one came when his job at Sri Lankan ( airplanes ) were literally shot to pieces. The other 46 are refugees from the U.S. airline industry. With over 10,000 pilots on furlough that number represents less than one-half of one percent. If we apply that ratio to your 1000 early retired DAL pilots we come up with a grand total of 5. Even if it is double the average since 9-11 that is only 10. My personal estimate from this recruiting trip is about 20 to 30, including F.O.s.


Typhoonpilot

IXNAT.
I would very much like to see the figures you are getting your info from on the Delta pilot retirees. If your figures are correct then I am very much mistaken and I stand corrected. I've been told (and have not taken the time to verify) by several DL pilots that the majority of early wide-body retirements were guys within 5 years of normal retirement. I shall look into this a little more closely!

You mention that a number of these retirees are working for SIA, Icelandic, EOS ( how many airplanes do they have) etc. Others are waiting to work for RyanAir. How many pilots are you talking here? 15-20-30 out of 1000 or so.(of which a percentage are too old to qualify for entry to EK) I've yet to see 1 DL retiree here in the middle east as a D.E.C. ( 2 DL guys are at EK as F/Os with 1 more joining in May, again as an F/O, none of whom are retirees). Where are all the other retired U.S pilots that were with US Air, U.A.L., A.T.A., Hawaiian American? They don't seem to be clamouring to get here. Quite a number of those guys have lost the bulk of their retirements and were under 50 years of age. Singapore, the UK, Europe, Asia are all perceived in the U.S. in a much different light than the middle east. Americans think that this a very negative place to be right now. I just don't think that EK will get a large influx of U.S. major airline pilots as D.E.Cs. ( unless they are paid much more than the website suggests and AS has said that this is just not the case;) )

This is not meant to be a battle with you over numbers. It is just one man's opinion (and we we all know what they say about opinions). You say you have no dog in this fight. Well I do and I stand by my assertion that I cannot condone the hiring of D.E.Cs at EK at this juncture and under the current set of circumstances. There are too many qualified F/Os already here who are a known entity and could easily upgrade. Let's sit at the pub some evening. I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss our different opinions :O (unless you are coming here as a D.E.C):yuk:
330:ok:

P.S. Still waiting on that 16 week check!!!

Pilots coming over
 

It is hard to say how many pilots will leave Delta. I am one that is leaving, not as a DEC though. Just a narrow body F.O.. I have had a number of pilots ask me about EK and they are thinking about jumping ship. I haven't heard how the job fair went, when I do I will let you know. The opinions expressed in from both stand points of an influx coming or a trickle are correct. It will be a coin flip for most and no one knows which way they will go.
What separates Delta from the other carriers, was the retirement plan was different. I don't think any of the other carriers in the last few years has had the early retirements we have had.
Fraternally,
calcio11

[quote=330 heavy]IXNAT.
I would very much like to see the figures you are getting your info from on the Delta pilot retirees. If your figures are correct then I am very much mistaken and I stand corrected. I've been told (and have not taken the time to verify) by several DL pilots that the majority of early wide-body retirements were guys within 5 years of normal retirement. I shall look into this a little more closely!

Sorry it has been a few days to respond to the above-on the road. You are correct, my numbers were incorrect concerning the Delta pilots. It was actually closer to 2000 retired early from late 2004. My friend did attend the Atlanta EK "job fair". He mentioned that it seemed there were about a total of 100-120 in attendance and a number that had set up sim evals prior. So will there be an influx of these Delta early retirees? My friend could not get into the simulator in the three days they were there due to the fact that they were all full up. So there you go, there seems to be quite a bit of interest if nothinig else. Oh yes, he mentioned that there were a few individuals from Canada and Northwest doing the evaluation. Hope this has been helpful.
IXNAT

EK Annual Bonus
 

Would you be happy if it was four? Five? Six? What are you seriously expecting?
What if it is only two weeks?

Last year was "4 weeks". The target is the same and profit is up by ...... a lot, so anything less would be a huge dissapointment.
Standing by to be dissapointed..... again....

6 weeks. Minimum!

2 weeks only dont forget the rising cost of accommodation as well as fuel.
If Ek had a brain they would build there own city and save long term , but its easier to rip off the ex-loyal workforce.

15 weeks profit share, 50% pay rise and 200k housing allowance. 60hrs/month and a guaranteed 100 days leave per year.

My dad always told me to look for the golf ball where I wanted to find it first. Sadly I am about to play 3 off the tee again.

Cerberus:eek:

6 weeks :suspect:

mad

My Prediction,
6 Weeks, 7% raise, 3% increment.
JUST enough lubrication to justify next years bu**eration

Whats the difference between a penis and a bonus..????








You wife will always blow your bonus...:mad: :mad:

excellent one 145...;) :ok:

So today is the end of the financial year...
Any "reliable source" want to come up with some number about the Share??:{

Come on guys. Give us an idea of what you expect. When is it usually announced officially? Watching with great interest.