Emirates and the A380 (threads merged)
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Emirates urges Boeing to consider longer-range 747-8I
Well Timmy C. is definitely looking for other options.....
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
Emirates is urging Boeing to continue studies of the longer range 747-8 Intercontinental variant incorporating the original shorter fuselage stretch, if it wishes to retain the prospect of an order from the Dubai carrier.
Emirates has ordered up to 20 747-8Fs for its cargo arm, and the airline’s president Tim Clark says the 747-8I is being evaluated to meet its requirement for a 400 seater to operate on direct services between Dubai and Los Angeles.
However Emirates is only interested in the “140in [3.5m] stretch” first proposed, says Clark, as the larger version with the “220in” (5.6m) extension which has now been adopted cannot carry a “meaningful payload” on the route.
Boeing revealed the 747-8I rethink last week, when it provided updated specifications confirming that it had standardised the fuselage extension of the passenger variant with that of the Freighter. This means that both aircraft have an overall length of 76.3m, which increases the typical three class capacity of the 747-8I from 450 to 467 but results in a range penalty of around 300km.
Speaking to ATI at an event to mark the opening of Emirates’ new lounge at London Heathrow’s Terminal 3, Clark said that while the larger, shorter range variant suits most the requirements of most 747-8I prospective customers, it falls short of Emirates’ needs, which are more focused on range than capacity.
“By our rules, the aircraft would seat 400 people on the Dubai-Los Angeles route and will only be able to carry around 70% of its passenger load,” he adds.
The original 747-8I had a 2m forward fuselage plug, while the new version’s plug is increased to 4.1m. The rear plug remains the same at 1.5m. Clark says he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions of the 747-8I “to increase the product spread within the family”.
He adds: “Why don’t they offer one version with the short forward plug and one with the longer plug?”
Boeing has previously made it clear that it only intends to build one version of the 747-8I, but says that despite now settling on the length, it is "still in discussions with airlines about what the optimal performance for the -8I from an operating cost and economics perspective”.
Clark says: “My thinking is that if we went to Boeing and said we’d order 20 [of the shorter fuselage variant], then they’d probably go for it.” Clark envisages that if a 747-8I order was placed, the aircraft could be in service with Emirates from around 2011.
Source: Air Transport Intelligence news
Emirates is urging Boeing to continue studies of the longer range 747-8 Intercontinental variant incorporating the original shorter fuselage stretch, if it wishes to retain the prospect of an order from the Dubai carrier.
Emirates has ordered up to 20 747-8Fs for its cargo arm, and the airline’s president Tim Clark says the 747-8I is being evaluated to meet its requirement for a 400 seater to operate on direct services between Dubai and Los Angeles.
However Emirates is only interested in the “140in [3.5m] stretch” first proposed, says Clark, as the larger version with the “220in” (5.6m) extension which has now been adopted cannot carry a “meaningful payload” on the route.
Boeing revealed the 747-8I rethink last week, when it provided updated specifications confirming that it had standardised the fuselage extension of the passenger variant with that of the Freighter. This means that both aircraft have an overall length of 76.3m, which increases the typical three class capacity of the 747-8I from 450 to 467 but results in a range penalty of around 300km.
Speaking to ATI at an event to mark the opening of Emirates’ new lounge at London Heathrow’s Terminal 3, Clark said that while the larger, shorter range variant suits most the requirements of most 747-8I prospective customers, it falls short of Emirates’ needs, which are more focused on range than capacity.
“By our rules, the aircraft would seat 400 people on the Dubai-Los Angeles route and will only be able to carry around 70% of its passenger load,” he adds.
The original 747-8I had a 2m forward fuselage plug, while the new version’s plug is increased to 4.1m. The rear plug remains the same at 1.5m. Clark says he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions of the 747-8I “to increase the product spread within the family”.
He adds: “Why don’t they offer one version with the short forward plug and one with the longer plug?”
Boeing has previously made it clear that it only intends to build one version of the 747-8I, but says that despite now settling on the length, it is "still in discussions with airlines about what the optimal performance for the -8I from an operating cost and economics perspective”.
Clark says: “My thinking is that if we went to Boeing and said we’d order 20 [of the shorter fuselage variant], then they’d probably go for it.” Clark envisages that if a 747-8I order was placed, the aircraft could be in service with Emirates from around 2011.
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EK Half Year profit up 29%
Emirates airline profit rises; offsets fuel costs
Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
Dubai
Emirates said first-half profit rose by 29 per cent after the Dubai government-owned company offset higher fuel costs by carrying more passengers and cargo.
Net income in the six months to September 30 climbed to $323 million, compared with $251 million in the year-earlier period, Emirates said in a statement. Operating revenue rose 30 per cent to $3.67 billion, it said.
'Emirates has been in a strong position to tap into the robust demand for air travel globally by expanding its route network with new high-capacity aircraft,' Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum was quoted as saying in the statement.
Emirates is banking on long-range, high-capacity aircraft to tap passenger and cargo traffic from as far away as east Asia and North America through its hub in Dubai to compete with global carriers including Qantas Airways and Singapore Airlines.
The International Air Transport Association has said Middle East passenger traffic in the first nine months of the year rose 15.4 per cent, the fastest of the world's regions, according to an industry association which represents 260 airlines.
The number of passengers Emirates carried in the first six months rose by 20 per cent to 8.39 million, compared with 6.98 million in the year-earlier period, it said.
Passenger revenue rose 31 per cent and load factor, the proportion of seats filled, to 76.4 per cent, it said, without giving comparisons.
Fuel costs climbed above $1 billion, equivalent to 30.7 per cent of total operating costs, it said, without giving a comparison. Revenue from cargo operations rose by 29 per cent to Dh2.7 billion ($735.1 million), Emirates said.
The world's airlines will cut their combined losses this year by half to $1.7 billion, offsetting a 26 per cent increase in fuel costs by raising passenger load factors, and on higher passenger and cargo demand, according to IATA. It will be their sixth successive year of losses, according to IATA.
Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
Dubai
Emirates said first-half profit rose by 29 per cent after the Dubai government-owned company offset higher fuel costs by carrying more passengers and cargo.
Net income in the six months to September 30 climbed to $323 million, compared with $251 million in the year-earlier period, Emirates said in a statement. Operating revenue rose 30 per cent to $3.67 billion, it said.
'Emirates has been in a strong position to tap into the robust demand for air travel globally by expanding its route network with new high-capacity aircraft,' Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum was quoted as saying in the statement.
Emirates is banking on long-range, high-capacity aircraft to tap passenger and cargo traffic from as far away as east Asia and North America through its hub in Dubai to compete with global carriers including Qantas Airways and Singapore Airlines.
The International Air Transport Association has said Middle East passenger traffic in the first nine months of the year rose 15.4 per cent, the fastest of the world's regions, according to an industry association which represents 260 airlines.
The number of passengers Emirates carried in the first six months rose by 20 per cent to 8.39 million, compared with 6.98 million in the year-earlier period, it said.
Passenger revenue rose 31 per cent and load factor, the proportion of seats filled, to 76.4 per cent, it said, without giving comparisons.
Fuel costs climbed above $1 billion, equivalent to 30.7 per cent of total operating costs, it said, without giving a comparison. Revenue from cargo operations rose by 29 per cent to Dh2.7 billion ($735.1 million), Emirates said.
The world's airlines will cut their combined losses this year by half to $1.7 billion, offsetting a 26 per cent increase in fuel costs by raising passenger load factors, and on higher passenger and cargo demand, according to IATA. It will be their sixth successive year of losses, according to IATA.
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FedEx cancels Airbus A380 order, switches to Boeing By Paritosh Bansal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061107/...ex_boeing_dc_3
NEW YORK (Reuters) - European plane maker Airbus (EAD.PA), which has faced a series of production delays on its high-profile A380 superjumbo program, suffered a major blow on Tuesday when FedEx Corp. (NYSE:FDX - news) canceled a roughly $2.5 billion order and switched to rival Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - news)
FedEx Express, the express package delivery unit of U.S. shipping company FedEx, became the first customer to terminate an order for Airbus' flagship plane when it scrapped an agreement to buy 10 A380-800F aircraft.
Instead, FedEx ordered 15 Boeing 777 Freighter aircraft and took options to purchase 15 more. The previous agreement with Airbus included an option for another 10 A380 planes, a FedEx spokesman said, but those options are now invalid.
FedEx said it expects to take delivery of four Boeing 777s in 2009, eight in 2010 and the remainder in 2011. At a list price of $232.5 million to $240 million each, the order will be worth at least $3.48 billion to Boeing.
The Boeing 777 Freighter, launched in May 2005, is the world's largest twin-engine cargo aircraft, but smaller than Boeing's new four-engined 747-8F Freighter.
The cancellation is a further blow to Airbus and its majority parent, EADS (EAD.PA), which have been plunged into financial and political crisis after a string of wiring delays on the A380 pushed the world's largest ever commercial plane two years behind schedule.
FedEx's decision cuts the number of outstanding orders for the A380 freighter to 15 from 25. Last month, FedEx rival United Parcel Services Inc. (NYSE:UPS - news), which has 10 A380s on order, said it had set up a team to evaluate its purchase.
The switch to Boeing is a boost for the U.S. planemaker, said Morningstar analyst Chris Lozier.
"It's definitely a good sign -- both the order and the cancellation," Lozier said. "I'm guessing that certainly they have those slots promised and they should have no problem making those deliveries."
EADS shares closed down 3 percent on the Paris stock market, while Boeing was up around 5.4 percent in afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The Standard & Poor's Aerospace and Defense index (^GSPAERO - news) was up 1.6 percent.
"The decision to purchase Boeing 777s was taken after Airbus announced significant delays for delivery of A380s," said Maury Lane, a spokesman at FedEx Express. "Global package demand continues to grow and we need the appropriate aircraft to meet that demand."
FedEx, based in Memphis, Tennessee, said it continues to be Airbus' largest wide-body airplane customer and will add new and used Airbus wide-body aircraft to its fleet in the coming years.
An Airbus spokesman said the company "regrets FedEx's decision, but we understand their need to urgently address capacity issues."
The spokesman added that Airbus remained committed to the freighter program: "We still expect the A380 freighter to be a successful program from the outset, although we did not expect demand to be very high at the start."
A Boeing spokesman said the company is prepared to meet FedEx's delivery schedule: "We are very pleased to meet the needs of such an important customer," spokesman Jim Proulx said.
FedEx shares were up 83 cents, 0.7 percent, at $114.77, in afternoon trading, while Boeing was up $4.21 at $84.69, both on the NYSE.
(Additional reporting by Chris Reiter in New York, Nick Carey and Kyle Peterson in Chicago and Nick Antonovics in Paris)
NEW YORK (Reuters) - European plane maker Airbus (EAD.PA), which has faced a series of production delays on its high-profile A380 superjumbo program, suffered a major blow on Tuesday when FedEx Corp. (NYSE:FDX - news) canceled a roughly $2.5 billion order and switched to rival Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - news)
FedEx Express, the express package delivery unit of U.S. shipping company FedEx, became the first customer to terminate an order for Airbus' flagship plane when it scrapped an agreement to buy 10 A380-800F aircraft.
Instead, FedEx ordered 15 Boeing 777 Freighter aircraft and took options to purchase 15 more. The previous agreement with Airbus included an option for another 10 A380 planes, a FedEx spokesman said, but those options are now invalid.
FedEx said it expects to take delivery of four Boeing 777s in 2009, eight in 2010 and the remainder in 2011. At a list price of $232.5 million to $240 million each, the order will be worth at least $3.48 billion to Boeing.
The Boeing 777 Freighter, launched in May 2005, is the world's largest twin-engine cargo aircraft, but smaller than Boeing's new four-engined 747-8F Freighter.
The cancellation is a further blow to Airbus and its majority parent, EADS (EAD.PA), which have been plunged into financial and political crisis after a string of wiring delays on the A380 pushed the world's largest ever commercial plane two years behind schedule.
FedEx's decision cuts the number of outstanding orders for the A380 freighter to 15 from 25. Last month, FedEx rival United Parcel Services Inc. (NYSE:UPS - news), which has 10 A380s on order, said it had set up a team to evaluate its purchase.
The switch to Boeing is a boost for the U.S. planemaker, said Morningstar analyst Chris Lozier.
"It's definitely a good sign -- both the order and the cancellation," Lozier said. "I'm guessing that certainly they have those slots promised and they should have no problem making those deliveries."
EADS shares closed down 3 percent on the Paris stock market, while Boeing was up around 5.4 percent in afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The Standard & Poor's Aerospace and Defense index (^GSPAERO - news) was up 1.6 percent.
"The decision to purchase Boeing 777s was taken after Airbus announced significant delays for delivery of A380s," said Maury Lane, a spokesman at FedEx Express. "Global package demand continues to grow and we need the appropriate aircraft to meet that demand."
FedEx, based in Memphis, Tennessee, said it continues to be Airbus' largest wide-body airplane customer and will add new and used Airbus wide-body aircraft to its fleet in the coming years.
An Airbus spokesman said the company "regrets FedEx's decision, but we understand their need to urgently address capacity issues."
The spokesman added that Airbus remained committed to the freighter program: "We still expect the A380 freighter to be a successful program from the outset, although we did not expect demand to be very high at the start."
A Boeing spokesman said the company is prepared to meet FedEx's delivery schedule: "We are very pleased to meet the needs of such an important customer," spokesman Jim Proulx said.
FedEx shares were up 83 cents, 0.7 percent, at $114.77, in afternoon trading, while Boeing was up $4.21 at $84.69, both on the NYSE.
(Additional reporting by Chris Reiter in New York, Nick Carey and Kyle Peterson in Chicago and Nick Antonovics in Paris)
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More EK A380 "Good News"
A380 costs, delays causing headaches at Emirates
Thursday March 15, 2007
Emirates President Tim Clark told ATWOnline last week in Berlin that the operating costs of its A380 fleet will be higher than originally planned.
"There are still an extra six tons of weight we can't get out of the A380. That will cost us extra money in operation for the next 10 or 15 years," Clark said.
Emirates' 45 A380s, which constitute a $15 billion investment, each should generate $200 million for the airline annually. The weight issues are compounded by the money EK is losing because of the program's delay. "We will get our first A380 in August 2008, 21 months later then scheduled," Clark said. "By that time we should have had 18 A380s already in service, with each vehicle flying 15 hours a day and transporting 500-600 passengers. If you count that together, it is a lot of money." He did not estimate the expected costs of either the operational issues or the delay.
He did say that EK and Airbus are nearing a delay compensation agreement; "We are too important for them, and they don't want us leaving for Boeing." He said a Boeing sales team was in Dubai about two weeks ago to discuss the 747-8 Intercontinental, which Clark said he likes but which would not be able to fulfill certain missions important to the carrier, like nonstop Dubai-Los Angeles service with 400 passengers and a full cargo payload. He also said Airbus will present its final A350 XWB version to EK next month.
by Kurt Hofmann
Thursday March 15, 2007
Emirates President Tim Clark told ATWOnline last week in Berlin that the operating costs of its A380 fleet will be higher than originally planned.
"There are still an extra six tons of weight we can't get out of the A380. That will cost us extra money in operation for the next 10 or 15 years," Clark said.
Emirates' 45 A380s, which constitute a $15 billion investment, each should generate $200 million for the airline annually. The weight issues are compounded by the money EK is losing because of the program's delay. "We will get our first A380 in August 2008, 21 months later then scheduled," Clark said. "By that time we should have had 18 A380s already in service, with each vehicle flying 15 hours a day and transporting 500-600 passengers. If you count that together, it is a lot of money." He did not estimate the expected costs of either the operational issues or the delay.
He did say that EK and Airbus are nearing a delay compensation agreement; "We are too important for them, and they don't want us leaving for Boeing." He said a Boeing sales team was in Dubai about two weeks ago to discuss the 747-8 Intercontinental, which Clark said he likes but which would not be able to fulfill certain missions important to the carrier, like nonstop Dubai-Los Angeles service with 400 passengers and a full cargo payload. He also said Airbus will present its final A350 XWB version to EK next month.
by Kurt Hofmann
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Virgin Blue getting big jets, now this. C'mom guys why are you still hanging around in the desert. Things really looking up in the land of Oz.
Tiger Airways gets Australian approval
Friday March 16, 2007
Tiger Airways was given the green light by Australia's Foreign Investment Review Board to proceed with the creation of Tiger Airways Australia (ATWOnline, Feb. 12).
Tiger said FIRB found that "the creation of Tiger Airways Australia was consistent with the government's foreign investment policy and did not place any specific conditions on the creation of the new airline." TAA now will now work toward securing its AOC.
Tiger CEO Tony Davis said he was "very encouraged by the support received from so many communities across the country," adding that TAA is in the final stages of negotiation with a number of Australian airports for the location of its principal operating base. Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide are frontrunners.
Interestingly, TAA was the popular abbreviation for domestic carrier Trans Australia Airlines, which was renamed Australian Airlines and then merged into Qantas ahead of the latter's IPO in 1994.
by Geoffrey Thomas
Tiger Airways gets Australian approval
Friday March 16, 2007
Tiger Airways was given the green light by Australia's Foreign Investment Review Board to proceed with the creation of Tiger Airways Australia (ATWOnline, Feb. 12).
Tiger said FIRB found that "the creation of Tiger Airways Australia was consistent with the government's foreign investment policy and did not place any specific conditions on the creation of the new airline." TAA now will now work toward securing its AOC.
Tiger CEO Tony Davis said he was "very encouraged by the support received from so many communities across the country," adding that TAA is in the final stages of negotiation with a number of Australian airports for the location of its principal operating base. Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide are frontrunners.
Interestingly, TAA was the popular abbreviation for domestic carrier Trans Australia Airlines, which was renamed Australian Airlines and then merged into Qantas ahead of the latter's IPO in 1994.
by Geoffrey Thomas
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Still want to fly the A380 ? (Emirates considering low-cost arm)
Out today -
Emirates is "thinking a bit" about starting a budget airline in the coming few years, its vice chairman said today as the state-owned firm announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profits. "We are thinking a bit about [a low-cost carrier]," Maurice Flanagan told the Reuters news agency. "It's something for the next few years. The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that," he said without elaboration. Sources played down the news when contacted by ArabianBusiness.com. "Emirates has no plans to start a budget carrier at the present time. We [are] currently focussed on our own organic growth," said a spokesperson.
However, launching such an operation would reflect the burgeoning ‘no-frills’ airline sector in the Middle East. Earlier this year Jazeera Airways, the Kuwait-based low cost carrier, established a base in Dubai. The Sharjah-based Air Arabia has recently completed the largest IPO in UAE history to fund its expansion. The no-frills model is also taking off in the newly-liberalised market of Saudi Arabia, where operators including National Air Services plan low cost carriers. Dubai-based Emirates, the largest Arab airline, has also announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profit and said it may buy more Airbus A380s. Net income in the six months to March 31 rose to AED1.9 billion ($517.4 million) from AED1.58 billion in the year-earlier period, Reuters calculated based on full-year data the company released today. Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum said the airline was close to a compensation deal with Airbus on its delayed A380s and may buy more of the aircraft. "We are very close to completing in the next week in terms of compensation," he told reporters in Dubai. "In terms of cancelling the A380s, no. Maybe we are buying more," he added. "We'll let you know more sometime in the future." Sheikh Ahmed said that Emirates has 'no interest' in buying a stake in Airbus. "I'm sure they [Airbus] are talking to some Arab private companies but not [to] us as an airline." It was not clear whether this comment related to the Gulf emirate of Qatar, which has recently been in talks with Airbus parent EADS about buying as much as a 10% stake in the European aerospace company.
Emirates, the world's eighth-largest international air passenger carrier in 2005, operates a fleet of 102 aircraft and has another 106 on order, including 43 of Airbus's A380 superjumbo. It carried 10.5 million passengers in the second half, up from 7.52 million in the year-earlier period. The government-owned airline plans to expand its fleet to 157 and double the number of its destinations to about 170 during the next five years, adding cities in the United States, Africa and India. Sheikh Ahmed ruled out buying stakes in other airlines such as PIA. "There's nothing in the pipeline at the moment. We're focusing on the airline [Emirates], not investing in other carriers."
Emirates made today's announcements at an event held at the arena at Dubai's upmarket Madinat hotel. It had flown in journalists from across the world, especially those from its key hubs in Europe and Asia.
However, launching such an operation would reflect the burgeoning ‘no-frills’ airline sector in the Middle East. Earlier this year Jazeera Airways, the Kuwait-based low cost carrier, established a base in Dubai. The Sharjah-based Air Arabia has recently completed the largest IPO in UAE history to fund its expansion. The no-frills model is also taking off in the newly-liberalised market of Saudi Arabia, where operators including National Air Services plan low cost carriers. Dubai-based Emirates, the largest Arab airline, has also announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profit and said it may buy more Airbus A380s. Net income in the six months to March 31 rose to AED1.9 billion ($517.4 million) from AED1.58 billion in the year-earlier period, Reuters calculated based on full-year data the company released today. Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum said the airline was close to a compensation deal with Airbus on its delayed A380s and may buy more of the aircraft. "We are very close to completing in the next week in terms of compensation," he told reporters in Dubai. "In terms of cancelling the A380s, no. Maybe we are buying more," he added. "We'll let you know more sometime in the future." Sheikh Ahmed said that Emirates has 'no interest' in buying a stake in Airbus. "I'm sure they [Airbus] are talking to some Arab private companies but not [to] us as an airline." It was not clear whether this comment related to the Gulf emirate of Qatar, which has recently been in talks with Airbus parent EADS about buying as much as a 10% stake in the European aerospace company.
Emirates, the world's eighth-largest international air passenger carrier in 2005, operates a fleet of 102 aircraft and has another 106 on order, including 43 of Airbus's A380 superjumbo. It carried 10.5 million passengers in the second half, up from 7.52 million in the year-earlier period. The government-owned airline plans to expand its fleet to 157 and double the number of its destinations to about 170 during the next five years, adding cities in the United States, Africa and India. Sheikh Ahmed ruled out buying stakes in other airlines such as PIA. "There's nothing in the pipeline at the moment. We're focusing on the airline [Emirates], not investing in other carriers."
Emirates made today's announcements at an event held at the arena at Dubai's upmarket Madinat hotel. It had flown in journalists from across the world, especially those from its key hubs in Europe and Asia.
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Not exactly new - Tim Clark was talking about that publicly in Nov 2005, suggesting a A380 with 780 all-Y seats serving UK-Australia, and as I recall also serving the Indian routes which I think are limited by the UAE bilateral in frequency, but not capacity, terms.
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UK and Aus I can understand,
But I seem to recollect that the indian routes are in fact limited to the number of pax onboard (and not just on frequency). I remember a while back, a request for the jumpseat was put through but then shot down at the last minute because the total number of pax onboard had exceeded the maximum allowable according to the indian traffic rights. ie all cabin seats where taken, and the poor staff traveller who had tried so hard to get home on emergency leave, had to wait for the next available flight.
This would not of been a problem if the staff pax was on the gendec, but since he had a revenue ticket, he was included in the total pax count.
This may of changed......
SN
But I seem to recollect that the indian routes are in fact limited to the number of pax onboard (and not just on frequency). I remember a while back, a request for the jumpseat was put through but then shot down at the last minute because the total number of pax onboard had exceeded the maximum allowable according to the indian traffic rights. ie all cabin seats where taken, and the poor staff traveller who had tried so hard to get home on emergency leave, had to wait for the next available flight.
This would not of been a problem if the staff pax was on the gendec, but since he had a revenue ticket, he was included in the total pax count.
This may of changed......
SN
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What's a jump-seat SN????
Remember, you're on a EK thread here and EK (TC) uses their jump-seats just to mentally kick their employees in the b****. Even if it would create some revenue they still refuse, now that's a stunner for the greedy b******! They only give these seat to control us via LOSA, and are subsequently surprised when we refuse.
Just proof how much they despise us.
Remember, you're on a EK thread here and EK (TC) uses their jump-seats just to mentally kick their employees in the b****. Even if it would create some revenue they still refuse, now that's a stunner for the greedy b******! They only give these seat to control us via LOSA, and are subsequently surprised when we refuse.
Just proof how much they despise us.
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