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Provident fund and sustainability of life as an FO in the ME3 with kids

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Provident fund and sustainability of life as an FO in the ME3 with kids

Old 27th Mar 2021, 18:51
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 130
Provident fund and sustainability of life as an FO in the ME3 with kids

Out of curiosity after say 5 to 10 years of service in Emirates or Qatar how much would one expect to leave with as their EOSB and has anyone been prevented from receiving this money for any reason? I have seen a figure of 7.5% employee contribution bandied about for Emirates but can't seem to find what the employer figure is and does it change on rank?

Not to open fresh wounds but considering the volume of recent dismissals in the Middle East I thought there would be some very recent examples.

Also in normal times is the education allowance sufficient to provide schooling for 3 kids and is there enough left over in a standard FO pay packet to pay for a decent family lifestyle?

For context I am not a journalist or anything simply a Euro LCC Captain who is considering scratching the LH itch once the doors re open in a few years. I appreciate many people would consider me insane but I made a choice to stay in Europe as I became a father at a very young age. It was the correct decision for my family and now we are ready for a new adventure. If Covid has shown me anything is that if you don't do the things you want to do in life you might never get the chance.

All the best and hopefully we are all flying again soon. And for those who will inevitably reply to stay where I am and be thankful for it, that is simply not a long term option.

PS: I understand people are on LWOP at the moment but that won't last forever and bluer skies are ahead.

Last edited by Whitemonk Returns; 27th Mar 2021 at 19:04.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 20:37
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Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Changes
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Having seen how these carriers have recently treated their employees, are you sure you would want to give up a command and risk your families future when you know exactly what could happen to you and your family.....
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 22:51
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
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It is undoubtedly a risk but ultimately one I am comfortable taking. If I sell my house here I would have about 5 years of cash to live off should the worst happen and I don't believe we are likely to see another Covid or similar aviation shut down for at least another decade, possible sure but not likely. Thank you for those who have sent me PMs I have plenty to think about 👍
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 04:48
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 853
It's all about your appetite for risk. Make sure you do all your due diligence checks before embarking on your proposed course of action. Nobody can predict the future of the aviation industry, anywhere, over any time frame, at the moment.

So, if you feel like rolling the dice, I wish you good luck. But if it all goes horribly wrong, please don't moan about it on PPRuNe. It is a risk you must be happy to accept when you choose to fly for the ME3.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 17:09
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Advance Planet System
Posts: 18
Mate, EK will contribute 12% of BASIC salary eligible to take the full amount 5 years into service. I was close to 8 years. If you are dismissed for any reason except redundancy you are only eligible for your contribution which amounts to 5% and it is an easy thing to happen. 2 kids is fine as long as your spouse works and you live below your means. 3 kids it will stretch the limits of your budget as everything is supper expensive. If you cook at home, don’t have a maid, have a cheap car and no expensive hobbies and no vacations to fancy destinations you will be ok with no extra. And If I were you I wouldn’t plan for a trip down the Me anytime soon. 1500 pilots were made redundant and others are with UL, recruitment teams are also let go so I guess they don’t expect any recruitment fairly soon and a lot of the redundant pilots including my self would gladly accept their old job back.

Last edited by Un_Limited; 28th Mar 2021 at 17:22.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 18:50
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 104
I suscribe the post above and Id add that those redundancy numbers are only for one of the ME3 carriers (EK) - numbers are much higher if you add the other two.

For me this discussion has no point until the big question is duly answered: under what conditions will redundant pilots be offered employment again? That will determine what conditions potential new hires get. Id say no fresh hires til 2023 at the very earliest. Although your guess is as good as mine.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 22:05
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
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I appreciate the replies and am aware of the current difficulties and am not downplaying them in the slightest. I am just trying to get planning and sorting things out in my head well in advance, I'm fairly set on going so knowing the facts now will have direct impact on wether I buy a new house next year, upgrade the car etc
I hope everyone who has been let go, including some old friends of mine, are brought back in 2022 and look forward to joining you all in 2023 or 2024 depending on the contract on offer by then 👍

As an older relative said to me recently, even the plague passed eventually.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 01:17
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Top of the World
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The answer is: You will save ~$100k in first 5 years in your provident fund as an FO. Obviously this depends on the market, and how you invest it.

As an FO you can support Wife + 3 kids and pay off the (assuming reasonable) mortgage back home. Little extra savings on top though.

Again, all depends on your lifestyle. Everything is expensive, so yes you could sit at home watching TV every day with the kids saving some cash - but that's not what you or the Wife came for.

Is the wife ready to be left alone in the desert with 3 kids for 20 days a month? If you have after-school activities it quickly adds up; $1000-1500/month per kid for e.g Music classes. A typical restaurant dinner with the wife is easily $150-200+.

Yes, can have a great lifestyle. But with 3 kids - come with the expectation that you won't be saving anything for a while.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 06:26
  #9 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Aug 2019
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This is what I was looking for thank you. Like I said above I am planning on selling the house as I have no intention of returning to the country I live in now, so the 'mortgage back home money' will go towards the kids after school activity budget 👍

While I'm here I might as well ask is there any point in waiting to qualify for the accelerated command avenue (in my experience they are usually BS) or just join as an FO? I noticed the command requirements on the website but does seniority play a part or do you just apply when you tick the boxes? Thanks again
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 06:41
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Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Changes
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That’s really a personal choice, but moving countries, companies, aircraft type and operation is a big ask, especially if you have not flown long haul previously. It’s a different beast to LCC Europe. Guys do manage LCC to DEC, but it’s tough, personally it’s a big ask and I wouldn’t like to have done it.

Dont forget your ‘mortgage back money’ isn’t just for back home, it’s for where ever you settle eventually and for any dire emergency, ie pandemic, 9/11, financial crash etc. I also had no intention of returning to the country I am back in now......... read into that. Scratching the long haul itch was an option before we realised our real worth. It is tiring, exhausting in fact, your away from your family much more, and the money wasn’t that great. What the money will be in the future is another matter and somehow I don’t think it’s going up!
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 08:03
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
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I agree with the DEC route being difficult and I would rather join as an FO and learn the ropes hence the original post, if it's survivable as an FO joining with a family already. If I joined in 3 years I would still only be mid thirties with up to 30 years of potential flying ahead of me if they don't burn me out first.

There is more to the decision than just the shiny jet and I wouldn't go if whatever new contracts they ruffle up were not up to scratch. I have a feeling however that we are all going to have to suffer for a few years but natural forces will out things back to normal sooner than we think, but I appreciate I am being optimistic. Anyway the wife has already started her research process so my application is basically already filled in! 😂

Without being a douche I would not be going to the sandpit dreaming of getting rich, I'm fairly comfortable financially as it is and as long as the salary covers the a decent lifestyle without being too flash that would be acceptable. Plus the best man at my wedding runs the biggest bar in Dubai but that's definitely not the reason for joining 🤔

Last edited by Whitemonk Returns; 29th Mar 2021 at 21:19.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 08:16
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 53
I wouldn’t plan too much on what the contract is now, they are probably going to rip the @rse out of it for the rejoiners post-COVID...
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:00
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Advance Planet System
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Whitemonk Returns

Excellent mate, 3 kids, working on buying a new house or car while working as a captain but not a long term job and thinking of joining EK in 3-5 years either fast track or the long route since your best man is running the biggest bar in Dubai! You even filled the alleged non existent application by getting the approval (as if EK is waiting for you with open arms to join and the only hurdle is the approval by the wife)!Wow, living the dream already!
I think we answered all your questions, now let me go back to whatever I was doing figuring out a way to put food on the table for the next 2 years as Im having a really really difficult time these days! I wish you well!

Last edited by Un_Limited; 29th Mar 2021 at 11:34.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:10
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 481
Ignoring what changes might come about post Covid, because no one really knows what they will be.

If it is really about an itch to fly long haul, and not about an itch to have a glitzy lifestyle then stay where you are until things recover, change fleet as soon as you can to get a useful type rating on your licence as a fall back, and then try to join BA as soon as possible. If you can do that in your mid thirties you will have a far more satisfying career than you’ll ever have in the Middle East, and your wife and kids will thank you for it.

If it’s about an itch for a glitzy life style then at the risk of sounding patronising there is a huge difference between visiting Dubai and staying in a smart hotel and visiting your best man’s bar, or living in a villa in the middle of nowhere next to the Al Ain road and flying 100 hours a month of deep nights and multiple time zone changes and minimum days off. There’s plenty about the Emirates / Dubai life style in the Middle East forum to help you make your mind up, but remember that in the Dubai you will experience as an expat pilot nothing that glitters is really made of gold.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 11:41
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Join Date: Aug 2019
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Un_Limited

I think I've played plenty of homage to those who are struggling right now but beating it to death doesn't help anyone. I haven't flown an airplane myself for 12 months and have been hammered financially but looking forward with positivity is all we can do right now. And obviously mentioning my friend was a joke.

Passing assessments and being wanted by a company is obviously not a given but I didn't get this far in life by thinking I can't do things, I hope you figure things out and the next two years are kind to you and your family.

I did consider BA and TUI, solid companies but both would require a long term commitment to the UK and as a foreigner here it has not been a very welcoming country for a long time, people seem to not realise that who are on the outside these days. The only country I have ever been racially insulted actually. UK is not an option for my family growing up beyond the immediate future. As always I appreciate the replies, including the many PM's, and as an insight to them the common theme is stay the hell away from QR but that Emirates can be positive if you make it work.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 19:19
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The middle
Posts: 481
Whitemonk...

I believe I am a colleague of yours, and as such I am deeply saddened by your experience of racism both in the general U.K. population and, although I hope not, in the workplace.

However I also hope that you and your wife do your research well, scratch beneath the surface and you will find few societies as racist and misogynist than Dubai. Unless you are an Emerati by birth then no matter what your race or creed you will always be a second class citizen there.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 21:14
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
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Hey man if you are I hope Furlough has been kind to you the last year! If we do both work in the same place then we both work in a good one. I only mentioned my experience, and it was an isolated one from a particular individual who has been a nuisance to my family, much more of a reflection on them than of the British as a whole who have been very good to us. But there is a difference to being nice and feeling at home, and I only brought it up as an aside that things are not always the same experience for one person as they are for another. Anyways apologies for the thread drift I hope we all get back flying soon!

​​​​​​As for accomodation is it the same for everyone or does it depend on family size/accomodation availability?
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 02:41
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 249
excrab

in the UAE even Arabic speakers (native speakers ) same religion are still only 2nd class people or short said expats
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 02:53
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 249
Fired600

LCC Commander to Long range commander is usually not such a big task as a typical EK pilot thinks - here the problem is EK training, which is not a training rather a checking from day one. EK makes of everything a ******* miracle which isn’t one - they had some high class trainers which would have trained people to success but most of these big picture guys where culled for lot of reasons (expected fail rate, to nice or just redundant)
EK DEC is only though in EK and only because of EK - the most difficult part in EK is just simply you have to talk everything to death in an amount where people stop listening which is corrected by more briefings which is definitive something a typical LCC guy doesn’t do for a lot of reasons, mostly because LCC flying, especially the time on ground does not allow such extensive talking through a flight prep.
the tasks you do on a A320 and a 380 are the same but on a 320 by the procedures of most LCC it’s done in 20 minutes
The cockpit prep video on a 380 is 45 minutes long - this are the differences
but if EK would train instead of constantly checking these are things you can easily manage, providing that you are doing your doing your homework, but that is not how EK works - EK is a company how believes to get better buy constantly putting pressure on their employees and some trainer have adjusted to that and having fun to let you feel how much they hold your live and career in their hands.
if you expect you go there to learn I can assure you, you only learn what you study yourself and what you are interested to know. And EK docs are not giving the answer to everything.
On top of that if a trainer doesn’t know something, there where just a view who would have been honest and would not have taken it personal if you got them. I came from a world before EK where a corrective input on a wrong statement of what a trainer said was never an issue it was always an open discussion to maximize the output of a training Session eventual for both parties. This is definitiv not the case in EK - again some trainers are amazing, unfortunately they are only on the minority side
and the future is gonna be interesting as a considerable amount of emiratisation will also influenz the training department and as an Emirati knows everything better and is just a better person by birth that’s gonna be an interesting training department as Wasta will be higher ranked in the future. The current A380 training manager, according to the rumors, has failed 3 sim checks a commander, but still climbs up the career ladder, where as an expat the show would have ended on fail number 2

Last edited by WB1900; 30th Mar 2021 at 03:20.
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 06:41
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: lagos
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What is name of bar owned by best man ?
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