Vaccine implications on your licence
14 6
I'm also a (very) amateur pilot. Although I have no idea how I found myself n the Middle East section of PPrune!
I am not sure that I do entirely understand your reluctance to accept what the experts are telling you. I could perhaps understand it if the recommendation was in the face of some trivial inconvenience, but this advice is in the face of an economy-wrecking, people-killing pandemic. When I step on a commercial aircraft, I trust that appropriate experts have ensured that it is fit to fly and that an appropriately qualified crew are sitting at the front, even though this may be the first time they have met each other or been on board this particular aircraft.
It is certainly possible (probable) that each of the vaccines will have some very rare adverse effects on some people, just like some aircraft very rarely fall out of the sky. But I do not see any way that there can be some mysterious long-term devastating consequence from some of the new technologies such as mRNA. The concept has been around for decades and we understand pretty well how it works. The other vaccines are bog standard in their methods. Personally, I would take any of the vaccines in a heartbeat if it was offered to me.
There are some interesting theoretical population level 'risks' that are a bit harder to explain. All viruses mutate very easily, and a lot of weakly immune people can select for resistant mutants. That's why it is so important to get as many people effectively vaccinated as fast as possible. If we imagine we can hide behind a wall in our own little vaccinated country, we would actually be constantly exposed to a soup of variants from outside that will eventually break through. If anything ever did, this needs global cooperation to fix.
I'm also a (very) amateur pilot. Although I have no idea how I found myself n the Middle East section of PPrune!
I am not sure that I do entirely understand your reluctance to accept what the experts are telling you. I could perhaps understand it if the recommendation was in the face of some trivial inconvenience, but this advice is in the face of an economy-wrecking, people-killing pandemic. When I step on a commercial aircraft, I trust that appropriate experts have ensured that it is fit to fly and that an appropriately qualified crew are sitting at the front, even though this may be the first time they have met each other or been on board this particular aircraft.
It is certainly possible (probable) that each of the vaccines will have some very rare adverse effects on some people, just like some aircraft very rarely fall out of the sky. But I do not see any way that there can be some mysterious long-term devastating consequence from some of the new technologies such as mRNA. The concept has been around for decades and we understand pretty well how it works. The other vaccines are bog standard in their methods. Personally, I would take any of the vaccines in a heartbeat if it was offered to me.
There are some interesting theoretical population level 'risks' that are a bit harder to explain. All viruses mutate very easily, and a lot of weakly immune people can select for resistant mutants. That's why it is so important to get as many people effectively vaccinated as fast as possible. If we imagine we can hide behind a wall in our own little vaccinated country, we would actually be constantly exposed to a soup of variants from outside that will eventually break through. If anything ever did, this needs global cooperation to fix.
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Can the Einsteins on here please show us the data from the Sinopharm trials? Last i heard was Sinopharm refused to publish any public data on their trials. If that is not enough to make people question the safety and efficacy in this modern medical world, then i don't know what is!
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double_barrel
That's a really interesting point about selection for resistance. Thank you. Wow. Scary. So this is kind of a second derivate problem. If you don't strengthen immunity in everyone simultaneously then you start selecting for resistance and the whole thing starts over again with a second need for a new vaccine and a whole new set of vaccinations against the mutation for everyone. I think what you just said was analagous to the whole lockdown thing. If you immunised everyone overnight then there would be no transmission and no selection/amplification of mutants. If you immunise half the population, the second half remains vulnerable, prone to mutation, and thus still the first half remains vulnerable, with no vaccine ready for the mutant strain. Can I ask, as a generality, whether the mechanisms invoved in vaccination produce some immunity to mutant strains ? I know there isn't a straightforward answer because mutants are unpredictable but is there any sort of normal distribution about the answer or just unpredictable?
That's a really interesting point about selection for resistance. Thank you. Wow. Scary. So this is kind of a second derivate problem. If you don't strengthen immunity in everyone simultaneously then you start selecting for resistance and the whole thing starts over again with a second need for a new vaccine and a whole new set of vaccinations against the mutation for everyone. I think what you just said was analagous to the whole lockdown thing. If you immunised everyone overnight then there would be no transmission and no selection/amplification of mutants. If you immunise half the population, the second half remains vulnerable, prone to mutation, and thus still the first half remains vulnerable, with no vaccine ready for the mutant strain. Can I ask, as a generality, whether the mechanisms invoved in vaccination produce some immunity to mutant strains ? I know there isn't a straightforward answer because mutants are unpredictable but is there any sort of normal distribution about the answer or just unpredictable?
ClassCbird
I would not trust a vaccine that could not show transparent and high quality trials data which had been examined and approved by an effective regulator. That would be the equivalent of flying with certain Nigerian low cost airlines that are not approved to operate in Europe - probably OK, but not a risk I need to take.
I would not trust a vaccine that could not show transparent and high quality trials data which had been examined and approved by an effective regulator. That would be the equivalent of flying with certain Nigerian low cost airlines that are not approved to operate in Europe - probably OK, but not a risk I need to take.
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double_barrel
If everyone in the world stayed at home for a month, (including those who are infected) the virus would also die out. But that would require CCP levels of population management, and it ain't gonna happen. No, what is needed is a medical treatment that reduces the effect of the virus, which in turn would reduce hospitalisations/ long COVID / deaths. Sadly the much-vaunted monoclonal antibody treatment seems not to work against the new variants, so that's still away away. Vaccines actually should come later, once the illness can be treated effectively.
If everyone in the world stayed at home for a month, (including those who are infected) the virus would also die out. But that would require CCP levels of population management, and it ain't gonna happen. No, what is needed is a medical treatment that reduces the effect of the virus, which in turn would reduce hospitalisations/ long COVID / deaths. Sadly the much-vaunted monoclonal antibody treatment seems not to work against the new variants, so that's still away away. Vaccines actually should come later, once the illness can be treated effectively.
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ClassCbird
I agree with you. The Wikipedia on BBIBP-CorV/Sinopharm reads like a Stephen King horror story, especially the Controversies section. Yes, I just googled it, but what else can we do?
I agree with you. The Wikipedia on BBIBP-CorV/Sinopharm reads like a Stephen King horror story, especially the Controversies section. Yes, I just googled it, but what else can we do?
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rcsa
Apparently there is such a medicine, but I am not dumb enough to discuss it on this forum. Anecdotal evidence exists and court orders obtained will now allow doctors to start treatment with it. Early days, but let’s see what happens.
Apparently there is such a medicine, but I am not dumb enough to discuss it on this forum. Anecdotal evidence exists and court orders obtained will now allow doctors to start treatment with it. Early days, but let’s see what happens.
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double_barrel
That is just the thing, over the last 12 months I have listened to numerous interviews with credible scientists, researchers and doctors warning us of the dangers and flaws associated with vaccines, especially the new ones. All the interviews started with a long list of credentials and qualifications of each speaker, so honestly, as a layman I don’t know what to believe anymore.
That is just the thing, over the last 12 months I have listened to numerous interviews with credible scientists, researchers and doctors warning us of the dangers and flaws associated with vaccines, especially the new ones. All the interviews started with a long list of credentials and qualifications of each speaker, so honestly, as a layman I don’t know what to believe anymore.
14 6
I strongly disagree. Treatment will never defeat it, but it will keep big pharma raking in the money. The only solution is to go after the virus not disease. That is how successful countries kept their deaths down.
I strongly disagree. Treatment will never defeat it, but it will keep big pharma raking in the money. The only solution is to go after the virus not disease. That is how successful countries kept their deaths down.
But doesn't prevent its spread! You would have to allow everyone on the planet to get infected and treated. Vaccination combined with tracking and tracing is the only way to eliminate the disease.
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I know there are colossal epidemiological and biochemical differences, but I would observe that twenty years ago another virus, HIV, had an almost 100% fatality rate. Now, managed with a relatively cheap daily anti-retroviral medication, most HIV patients lead long and healthy lives, and are mostly/largely non-infectious. There is still no vaccine for HIV.
Don't shout at me - I know they are totally different beasts. But HIV medication shows that medical science can come up with a compound that drastically reduces the impact of a virus.
Vaccination, treatment, acquired immunity - they all play their part.
Don't shout at me - I know they are totally different beasts. But HIV medication shows that medical science can come up with a compound that drastically reduces the impact of a virus.
Vaccination, treatment, acquired immunity - they all play their part.
Last edited by rcsa; 2nd Feb 2021 at 16:43.
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custardpsc
Your understanding is correct. The longer we stay unvaccinated, the more chances we have for the virus to mutate its way out of the vaccine. If the global population is only partially vaccinated, that puts immense selective pressure on the virus to develop into a strain that is "resistant" to the vaccine.
The sooner we get these vaccines, the better our chances of getting past COVID19.
Your understanding is correct. The longer we stay unvaccinated, the more chances we have for the virus to mutate its way out of the vaccine. If the global population is only partially vaccinated, that puts immense selective pressure on the virus to develop into a strain that is "resistant" to the vaccine.
The sooner we get these vaccines, the better our chances of getting past COVID19.
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custardpsc
We won't know until we see the specific mutation. Think of the virus as having a lock (spike protein), and your immune system has to find a key (antibodies). What the vaccine has done is given your immune system a head start in finding the correct key. A mutation in the virus can change any number of things. If the mutation changes the lock on the virus, the key that the vaccine delivered may become less effective if shape of the lock changes significantly. The combinations are practically endless.
We won't know until we see the specific mutation. Think of the virus as having a lock (spike protein), and your immune system has to find a key (antibodies). What the vaccine has done is given your immune system a head start in finding the correct key. A mutation in the virus can change any number of things. If the mutation changes the lock on the virus, the key that the vaccine delivered may become less effective if shape of the lock changes significantly. The combinations are practically endless.
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14 6
This is a fair point. I'll say this though, there will always be a few scientists that will go against the grain. Sometimes, that's useful, but not usually. What you need to see is the consensus opinion of the experts in that particular field. This is a new disease, and as with all scientific endeavours, opinions change as understanding grows. So sure, one or two people may be expressing views contrary to the consensus, but usually you'll find that their views are based on poor quality data from a single study. I'm betting that the 99% are right, and the 1% are wrong. That's been proven over and over again with this pandemic (man-made virus, hydroxychloroquine, inverrectin).
This is a fair point. I'll say this though, there will always be a few scientists that will go against the grain. Sometimes, that's useful, but not usually. What you need to see is the consensus opinion of the experts in that particular field. This is a new disease, and as with all scientific endeavours, opinions change as understanding grows. So sure, one or two people may be expressing views contrary to the consensus, but usually you'll find that their views are based on poor quality data from a single study. I'm betting that the 99% are right, and the 1% are wrong. That's been proven over and over again with this pandemic (man-made virus, hydroxychloroquine, inverrectin).
14 6
To be perfectly honest, I doubt that you have seen comments like that from credible people who are aware of the state of the art. I agree that it's a potential problem that if you are directly involved in the current state-of-the-art, you tend to focus on the benefits of your pet project, but there are plenty of very knowledgable people who understand the principles but have no dog in the fight. For a start, anyone who is described only as a Dr, surgeon etc can be discounted if they stray out of straightforward clinical matters. I seem to remember a bunch of mad medics claiming that hyrdroxychloroquin was a certain cure for COVID and that we were being lied to for political reasons! That was disgraceful behaviour by people who I presume really are medics.
It is a simple fact that vaccines in general have had massive beneficial impact - they are one of the 3 or 4 most important medical developments that have transformed our lives. That really is indisputable, the anti-vax movement is criminally stupid and/or irresponsible. Sure, there are legitimate questions about details of new methods and the necessary risk/benefit equation, and we can and should be able to discuss them openly. In fact, that is exactly what the various national approval bodies attempt to do. But the noise of nonsense out there with as much credibility as the flat earthers or moon landing deniers are doing huge damage.
To be perfectly honest, I doubt that you have seen comments like that from credible people who are aware of the state of the art. I agree that it's a potential problem that if you are directly involved in the current state-of-the-art, you tend to focus on the benefits of your pet project, but there are plenty of very knowledgable people who understand the principles but have no dog in the fight. For a start, anyone who is described only as a Dr, surgeon etc can be discounted if they stray out of straightforward clinical matters. I seem to remember a bunch of mad medics claiming that hyrdroxychloroquin was a certain cure for COVID and that we were being lied to for political reasons! That was disgraceful behaviour by people who I presume really are medics.
It is a simple fact that vaccines in general have had massive beneficial impact - they are one of the 3 or 4 most important medical developments that have transformed our lives. That really is indisputable, the anti-vax movement is criminally stupid and/or irresponsible. Sure, there are legitimate questions about details of new methods and the necessary risk/benefit equation, and we can and should be able to discuss them openly. In fact, that is exactly what the various national approval bodies attempt to do. But the noise of nonsense out there with as much credibility as the flat earthers or moon landing deniers are doing huge damage.
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DB; Thanks. "Works" was the term you used. Not me.
14 6 : On side throughout. I and others here, and many others outside of this site have simply doubted the numbers & method of delivery of all the info. we have not taken a specific view but have expressed doubt. We have been subjected to much vitreol and even banned although the latter, a warning device for method of articulation rather than freedom of speech.Possibly. I remain very sceptical and very wary and more inclined to look at cold hard evidence. Not getting any of it convincing enough for me to make an action decision. But that is what we professional pilots (site aimed at us) do before we,for example, disengage, stuff the nose down, decompress and head for the nearest suitable.
I am inclined to disengage, stuff the nose down, de-distress and head for the nearest suitable bar ! Oh, NWO won't let me.
14 6 : On side throughout. I and others here, and many others outside of this site have simply doubted the numbers & method of delivery of all the info. we have not taken a specific view but have expressed doubt. We have been subjected to much vitreol and even banned although the latter, a warning device for method of articulation rather than freedom of speech.Possibly. I remain very sceptical and very wary and more inclined to look at cold hard evidence. Not getting any of it convincing enough for me to make an action decision. But that is what we professional pilots (site aimed at us) do before we,for example, disengage, stuff the nose down, decompress and head for the nearest suitable.
I am inclined to disengage, stuff the nose down, de-distress and head for the nearest suitable bar ! Oh, NWO won't let me.
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By all means do your own study and make an informed decision based on facts. Never has an introduction of vaccines received this much "noise".
For years, science has proved beyond doubt the risk/benefit arguments for or against vaccination. Sure science has stuffed up along the way but for humankind it has done tremendous good.
This time round - it's every grandma and auntie's WhatsApp/Tik Tok/YouTube Video that has muddied the field. So much so mainstream media needs to dedicate a page just to debunk the myths and present the facts. Information overload or social media has really worked against Public Health policies. Not forgetting some World Leaders, if you call them that piling on to the misinformation - only takes a minute to do a deep cleansing.
Influencers or anyone with a voice doing a disservice whilst publishing half baked facts and distorting the facts to fit a narrative. Prostate surgeons sending viral tweets how the number of excess deaths are a mistake.
National pride working at finger pointing, trumpet sounding rather than working together to solve this for humanity.
National pride preventing acceptance of vaccines from an "enemy state" because of border disputes.
It would certainly be embarrassing to LAND ASAP based on half investigated rumour about "smoke" in the cabin.
For years, science has proved beyond doubt the risk/benefit arguments for or against vaccination. Sure science has stuffed up along the way but for humankind it has done tremendous good.
This time round - it's every grandma and auntie's WhatsApp/Tik Tok/YouTube Video that has muddied the field. So much so mainstream media needs to dedicate a page just to debunk the myths and present the facts. Information overload or social media has really worked against Public Health policies. Not forgetting some World Leaders, if you call them that piling on to the misinformation - only takes a minute to do a deep cleansing.
Influencers or anyone with a voice doing a disservice whilst publishing half baked facts and distorting the facts to fit a narrative. Prostate surgeons sending viral tweets how the number of excess deaths are a mistake.
National pride working at finger pointing, trumpet sounding rather than working together to solve this for humanity.
National pride preventing acceptance of vaccines from an "enemy state" because of border disputes.
It would certainly be embarrassing to LAND ASAP based on half investigated rumour about "smoke" in the cabin.
. (In fact we have one; it’s called scientific literacy. But some people simply refuse to take the jab.)Join Date: May 2019
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