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Vaccine implications on your licence

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Vaccine implications on your licence

Old 3rd Feb 2021, 14:16
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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aussiefarmer

I appreciate that not everyone can be an immunologist, but to take a stance based on the word of somebody on YouTube who has no background whatsoever in the field is mind boggling in its stupidity.
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Old 3rd Feb 2021, 23:39
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding vaccines.

Some people will get the vaccine and die. I'm told that people do die occasionally from lots of different vaccines very year. A small number. Some also react badly to common medications. Some people simply drop dead for no biological reason who are otherwise fit and healthy.

The irony of the argument was illustrated by a neighbor recently. Picture this, a male, early 50's, weight 140+kg, a pack a day smoker, drinks massively, partakes in waccy tobaccy daily ( other substances), diet consists of takeaway food and nothing else, never exercises. Won't get the vaccine because he is "worried about it's effect my health".

I think people are getting too caught up in this saga and a little perspective is required.

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Old 4th Feb 2021, 17:12
  #43 (permalink)  
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The purpose of the thread was not to create a vax versus anti vax debate but rather to highlight the possibility that some vaccines may not be compatible with some flying licences. I have yet to encounter a colleague that refuses to be vaccinated but I have encountered many that are wary about vaccines which are not recognised in their own home country and have elements of their development and testing shrouded in secrecy.
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Old 4th Feb 2021, 18:12
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Honest question: is there any current vaccine (not covid) that renders your class 1 invalid anywhere in the world?
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 09:52
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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aussiefarmer

In the past, yes, A certain Europe wide H1N1 2009 Swine Flu vaccine did affect some people with side effect of Narcolepsy. That stops operation of most machinery.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...lepsy-flu.html
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 10:28
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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double_barrel

Preventative treatment can affect spread. For example inexpensive Ivermectin has been used widely as a prophylacticand for treatment outside of Western nations to good effect:

https://swprs.org/who-preliminary-re...effectiveness/

Immunity can be increased by vaccines but also naturally as we are seeing in Swedish population (particularly Stockholm). In Spring 2020 they had 500 "cases" (RT PCR positives) per day, now around 7000. However mortality rate is not worse - if anything less than the previous disaster in the care homes (a la NYC, UK, Italy). Anti body testing has revealed increase from 15% in Spring to 40% Jan2021.

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/...-for-covid-19/

https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid...sts-have-shown

This is in part due to following 2019 WHO pandemic guidelines instead of complete national lockdowns and masking up healthy. There is evidence that Lockdowns reduce immunity (lowering Vitamin D and exercise for example) and increase spread in confined spaces - compare Peru with Brazil or South Dakota with N Dakota and EuroMOMO data for EU and UK.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484

On vaccine safety, main players Phase 3 trials have been published:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...KweLxY.twitter

Whilst that should reassure many, they have been released under emergency regulation not the normal FDA like process. Some will not report on their trials until 2023.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04...-the-raw-data/

We would do well to remember most folk who have concerns about novel vaccines are NOT Anti-vax, Flat_Earthers, or climate change deniers. Neither do they hold extreme views. They are just concerned human beings who took a Yellow Fever shot every 10 years (now once for life https://www.who.int/ith/updates/20160727/en/) , Flu jabs every year. They seek transparency in a world that is more confusing that the "goode olde days" of the Cold War but see the dumbing down in the media and polarisation of society, the destruction of jobs and economy, the massive debts from response to this crisis as bad for everybody, especially the future for the least physically affected by SARS-CoV2, their kids.

Meanwhile, the WHO has recommended against forced Vaccine Passports: https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes...-280701-ab/en/
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Old 8th Feb 2021, 16:50
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Ivermectin might prevent Covid Mortality - the verdict is not resounding yet. Great for the general population, but for an aviator to have severe disease/symptoms and get Ivermectin and survive with long term damage to lungs and heart would probably cause a loss of license. Could you risk that?

As for masking, lockdown or not, the following chart paints a grim picture of excess mortality. True there could well have been other reasons for the excess deaths in 2020 - just run the same chart with countries that have strict masking, border closures and stricter measures(NZ, ROK, Taiwan) and do a comparison. You can draw some conclusions. Just a comparison of Sweden and other Nordic countries of similar population but applied other measures lockdowns etc.



https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/e...E&region=World

First spike could well have been all the care home deaths but the 2nd end of year spike, unless they repeated their mistakes. You can paint a similar picture for Italy as well - first spike the terrible toll from Lombardy but another spike at the end of the year, similar in the USA, Belgium, Netherlands, England and Wales. Czech Republic went for a strict masking policy at the beginning of the pandemic - cases were kept low then the summer brought about relaxed masking , the famous party on the Charles Bridge to celebrate - populist government yielding to unmask and you can see the spike at the end of the year.



Vaccinate not because of a particular brand etc. Just use what is available as there's a shortage. Might not be the best but good enough. AstraZeneca is available as well now in Dubai but there won't be enough.

I would love my colleagues who have "left the business" to return. Possibly the quickest way out of this pandemic and for Aviation to revive is for herd immunity through vaccination. Other means may be the perfect solution but will probably result in prolonging job losses, more lockdowns, half vaccinated, more strains to emerge, extended damage to economies, debts - and indeed future of our kids as well.

Last edited by Marcellus Wallace; 9th Feb 2021 at 04:59.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 06:13
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 08:15
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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This is exactly what I am talking about!
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 09:40
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Painful. I'm doing my best but to stick with it, so far it's jumbled mix of fragments of very well known stuff spun to make him sound clever and 'subversive'. My favourite quote so far "Dr Fauci won't talk about interferon" !

He also claims to have invented email and a magical system for understanding biological interaction which seems to be bog standard, and very limited, text mining.

And the live chat shows no-one paying any attention to what he is actually saying.

Good grief, the 1st question he gets is "We know the full genome. How it is regulated via the elite one is still becoming clear" To which he replies "exactly" and then rabbits on with trivial and confused truisms as if they are great revelations. I think this is wicked stuff.

Next question "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human". He has been talking about mRNA vaccines. The answer is absolutely NO for mRNA vaccines!! He has just tried to explain that! But instead of answering this question, he blithers on saying we pass vaccines between ourselves all the time, and throws confused nonsense. This is really, really wicked.

Next Q about "vax shedding"! Good grief! That is exactly the problem with the old vaccines he said were great, it is impossible with mRNA vaccines. Does he say that ? No. He blithers on about it being a concern and scientists keeping it a secret.

OK, his presentation was mostly confused and trite, the way he is working the questions to appear to support nonsense is deeply troubling.

Last edited by double_barrel; 10th Feb 2021 at 10:15.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 10:11
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever!

This is supposed to be a guy with 4 degrees from MIT and you are some anonymous bug-specialist lurking around on a pilot rumour site........can you see my dilemma?

Everyone these days are some kind of a vaccine expert with all sorts of degrees and differing opinions.......and me, pilot........I am sitting on the sideline, head going left and right like I am watching a tennis match........and that is my big problem with this whole lot!
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 10:26
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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So give me a specific to drill down into?

How about the questions on "vax shedding" or "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human".

Look at his answer to those questions. Then look at what he actually says when he is explaining mRNA vaccines in the body of his presentation. Now tel me there is not a complete, 180 degree discrepancy between the facts as HE himself portrays them, and the way he responds to those questions.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 10:36
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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And why should I believe your explanation as opposed to his? By the way, it’s not only Shiva, there are many others.

What I suggest you do, is to contact MIT and report him for spreading fake news whilst bragging about his 4 degrees. Good grief, I thought us pilots can talk crap by using big words and sounding all clever, but you people take the cake.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 10:46
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Don't believe my explanation. Believe his. He is more-or-less correct when he describes how mRNA vaccines work and the advantages they have over the old fashioned vaccines based on live, attenuated virus. He explains that no whole virus is used. He explains that mRNA is taken up by ribosomes which manufacture antigen. He says there is no actual virus associated with the mRNA vaccine. Therefore "vax shedding" is completely impossible with mRNA vaccines. He obviously knows that. Why does he not say that? I suspect because he is focused on winding-up a very specific audience.


BTW. There have been some tragic deaths caused by "vax shedding" from the polio vaccination. The polio vaccine has made a fantastic contribution to human health and we are on the brink of completely eliminating the disease through vaccination, but the risks are not quite zero. mRNA vaccines eliminate that category of risks.

Last edited by double_barrel; 10th Feb 2021 at 10:56.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 10:58
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Suggest if there is so much doubt about the mRNA vaccine, stick to the traditional weakened/attenuated type of vaccine. Edward Jenner used it and the technology is still being used.

I love his analogy about playing in dirt when he was young - perhaps these guys should go work at the morgue or ICU without PPE and "roll around" in the dirt. They sure could need some helping hands.

Speak to your colleagues, some have caught COVID-19 - the ones who've had more than mild symptoms. Ask them how it was. There are more out there these days.

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Old 10th Feb 2021, 11:07
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Good plan. And I suggest that you fliers stick to traditional navigation with sextant and dead reckoning. Ernest Gann used it, and the technology is still being used.

Vaccines based on live virus carry a particular set of risks that mRNA (and other) vaccines completely eliminate. Sure they MAY introduce other risks, like modern nav systems raise the risk of collision as everyone flies the same perfect line between two points. But on the whole, I will take the overall improved performance.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 12:20
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
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I'm pretty convinced about the safety, risks versus benefits. I'll take whatever is available.

We are indeed fortunate here to get the vaccine FREE. You can even choose which particular type if you're willing to wait it out.

Lot's of frontliners working in ICU's dealing with this dreaded disease don't even have that privilege.

If you have a particular license and your CAA has prohibited X brand/type of vaccine then you don't have a choice I suppose. Otherwise for the rest of us it's a no brainer.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 12:42
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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I took the first one available to me which happened to be Sinopharm and in 6-8 months time I can get a booster from one of the other, hopefully either Moderna or Pfizer and get the added benefit of them.
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 04:59
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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How can you or I be sure this guy is a fake? Aren’t these nutty scientists supposed to be rambling on about something without making sense? (joke)

MIT should come out and discredit him, after all he is bringing their good reputation into doubt if he is faking it like you suggest.

I think you should follow your own good advice and talk about aviation rather than calling out fakers in a field you have no knowledge of.
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 06:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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You could have studied at Harvard and still be wrong. I donít understand your point.

Thereís always someone in every discipline that goes against the general consensus. There are scientists that think climate change is not real. That does not mean they are right.

There are very experienced pilots licensed by EASA who think that flying a twin with one engine out for 3 hrs over continental europe is acceptable. That doesnít mean they were right.

Scientific studies are peer-reviewed and have to be verifiable by others to be considered valid or insightful. Thatís what gives science credibility, not which university the scientist carried his studies at.

Last edited by aussiefarmer; 11th Feb 2021 at 07:07.
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