EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

[metro301]

Altruistic acts may have a place at a union shop in a home country, while working under a collective agreement.

However... The ME is based on individual contracts. Every expat here made a choice and weighed the risks. They signed their own contract based on their own circumstances.

What business is it of mine (or yours) to assess the finances of a co-worker in their 60's? Who am I to say they have "enough"? Who are you to say?

They (like you) were hired to complete a job. Move the aircraft safely and efficiently from point A to B. Their finances are their business and none of yours.

[GDAJB]

All Pilots should target 60 as the age which they have the financial resources to retire. Due to 2 reasons (i) Passing the medical can be difficult after 60 (ii) changing job after 60 is more difficult. If you have not achieved this then normally it is down to poor decision making.

Not really! Few long serving pilots will have achieved that landmark by “poor decision making.” You can “target” whatever you like, but unfortunately life tends to throw up a full time obstacle course to most people. When I started airline flying the retirement age was 55. I paid what seemed like a large relative chunk of money into something called a “Defined benefit Pension fund.” My employers claimed that they paid an even bigger chunk of money into it, The “oldies” claimed it was “Gold plated” and I could look forward to retiring on 60% of my best average three years (in the last 10) earnings for the rest of my life, all index linked. My mortgage (with its then 15% interest rate!) would be paid off and I could happily tend to the garden while offering my happy laughing grandkids an endless supply of lint covered toffees from my pocket. Admittedly, my investments in Apple stock was best summed up by buying three fruit trees which yielded far less than the garden centre brochure promised. Nevertheless, I don’t feel I really made bad decisions?

The trouble was that “life” got in the way and governments, lawyers and money markets found our pensions simply irresistible and it turns out that they too weren’t quite as gold plated as they had once promised to be. But never mind, as the years rolled on so 60 became the new retirement bar which gave those who needed or wanted to, the opportunity to repair their retirement shoebox with a longer working longevity. Then came the financial crises and the changes to terms / conditions and job security that resulted. By now the retirement bar was reset to 65, and again, for those who needed to or wanted to and physically could, the option to mitigate the damage was further extended.

When retirement is but a distant prospect, you have the opportunity to prostitute your talents as you see fit. When retirement is visibly on the horizon, the realisation quickly dawns that the “shoebox” is going to have to provide everything for an indeterminate amount of time. If it’s full you can bet your life that you will keel over the month you retire. If it’s not so pretty then the likelihood is that you will live to be older than Methuselah! When you are working, price inflation is eventually balanced by wage inflation. In retirement, inflation is going to be a mortal enemy. A lifetime of good earnings and the dreams of a comfortable retirement becomes a real worry in that last decade. All those promises you made to retire early, start to dissolve into “maybe just another year?” As for the 40 year old who thinks it is morally repugnant that you don’t cast yourself adrift whilst themselves having few moral compunctions about selling his soul for a tax free salary to a regime that treats him/her as nothing more than the hired help.......Meh!... Sell yourself to the Chinese for more, and stop worrying about my morals!

As for medicals...It is obviously true that the older you get the greater the risk of natural attrition, but in reality if you made it this far there is a very good chance that after being told off by the AME for your ever expanding waistline, provided you manage to stay broadly within the published numbers, your ticket will reflect your career decision and go on for another 6 months or a year.

[WB1900]

glofish

what EK did could have been done in a far better way
EK according to the reports is one of the richest companies (cash wise) and did only one thing, while Lufthansa is paying 80% of their salaries during the whole pandemic where pilots where doing 2 flights or less in 6 month, some of them are not even that close to flying while still getting a salary. Which was done with the state aid they received
just to make sure it’s Lufthansa Classic I am Talking about, while this does not count extacly on German wings, while these guys are know parked in Eurowings - so bottomline very few job losses their either - and for those are currently redundant they are preferred on rehire when times get better
was there a different approach which the me3 could have went - yes definitiv and it shows what the value of an expat is - this has nothing to do with the age or retirement age or what so ever
simple - good airlines in countries with some sort of rules managed the Desaster in terms of employees better than others and it’s a shame that a Country which constantly bragging how good they are Show off on the bad side of moral duties and I am sure that hiring a company to run a performance Matrix over the employees cost a fortune - but they rather payed that than investing in their employees to protect them -
and as you said the older ones in Swiss air had a retirement fund of a EK pilot can only dream off - but that’s also because these funds in Switzerland are by far more effektive than what EK offers
but whatever

[nimrodjoe]

This thread is gold.
Just when you think it can’t get any better, Panda drives it out of the park! We have one group of a$$ hats blaming Millennials, and another blaming Boomers! Fantastic stuff boys, keep it up.
Have you ever seen the film Logan’s Run?

[The Outlaw]

kungfu panda

Your badge says you are 40. God forbid you should suffer as some who are approaching 60 may have. You are spouting nothing more than self righteous BS with a hope to push others out of the way for your own benefit going forward.

You are truly a selfish individual, others would call you worse.

The circumstances of those approaching retirement age is none of your god damn business. Perhaps that individual cared for a ill family member or spent time doing humanitarian work with the idea of making his retirement from 60-65.

Who the hell are you to spout your bilge on what YOU think others should do?

Please, just go away and take your selfish views with you.

[kungfu panda]

Just a suggestion. If you don't like to read other people's opinions then don't read the posts on Pprune.

The best thing these days is just to buy the Newspaper which conforms to your views.

[kungfu panda]

GDAJB

That is a really nice post. Thank you for expressing your opinion in such an articulate way.

I do humbly disagree though. I presume that you're a career British Airways Pilot. I also presume that a similar conversation has gone on within your company.

The reason that I would disagree with you is far more profound than the reasons at our company here in the ME.
Whilst you've been with BA, your pension has been degraded, but remains very good. At the same time if you'd have started your career in the late 1970's or the 1980's, all of your property would have seen a phenomenal rise in value. Especially in the London area. I understand that interest rates were high early on but that has been made up now with 25 years of record low interest rates.

The current 45 year old family man will be facing much greater struggles than your age group ever has. Years now of unemployment will effect him and his family's life far more than if you were to take voluntary early retirement.

[felixthecat]

Total myopic drivel !

Now back to the subject of the post.....what was it now?

[NOFLY7773]

Kongfupanda.

You sound like a typical entitled young 🤬 that mummy and daddy probably still stick up for and fund when you are in a tight spot.
People keep their jobs based on merit and we can see why you don’t have yours. Laugh my ass off when you make bad life “choices “ and find yourself at the opposite end of this conversation.

[kungfu panda]

Sorry. I stand corrected. All of the family guys around the world, redundant/on furlough/unpaid leave; they're all talentless fools, like me. We deserve what we get. Those 63 year olds topping up their pensions must be invaluable to the industry.

[NOFLY7773]

Kungfoopanda.

Not at all. I don’t hear them on here saying that certain people should retire. The people that didn’t get made redundant/ furloughed or what ever else. Good luck to them I say. People can choose in this world to retire whenever they want and don’t need some young .... telling them how they should have lived their lives, invested their money or how many people they married.
This isn’t forever, it is just for now.

[kungfu panda]

Sadly, you're wrong. They do need to be told that their inaction is a lack of integrity. You're right, they can make that choice and nothing said here will change anything.

[polax52]

I think basically the Panda is right, though his posts clearly carry too much emotion.

I am 63. I retired from the middle east last summer, not Emirates and not for philanthropic reasons. I thought that the virus would outlast my career and I thought that it was quite demeaning to myself hanging out and hoping that a Middle Eastern company would keep playing ball with my plans. I certainly could have used another couple of years but I decided that I could manage on what I had. Right now, I feel that I made the right decision.

[NOFLY7773]

Kungfu panda

Personally if I’m having to work past 60 I have done something wrong as I wouldn’t want to do this past 55. but that is just my choice, I’ll have to live a cheaper life for that to happen, but at least I’ll be living because I certainly didn’t live whilst at Ek. I am all for freedom of choice, I guess it is up to the airline and not me who goes. Were many over 60’s kept on at Ek?

[felixthecat]

All depends on personal circumstances. Rich 60+ then might be worth heading off, poor 60 and the remaining 5 years may make all the difference, you can be a long time retired! Being 60+ and not financially secure isn’t necessarily due to financial mismanagement, globalising a statement rarely makes it factual.

Statements challenging over 60s integrity due to not taking one for the boys are unjustified.

Now the topic WAS ‘ EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of pilots & Cabin Crew’....

[GDAJB]

Kungfu,

Thats not a correct assumption I am afraid. I’ve never worked for BA, although I have had the pleasure of being a passenger with them on everything from the VC-10 through to Concorde! My recent workplace has been much closer to yours. As for “all of my property”..... truth be told, I’ve only ever had one at a time, and the bank owned most of that until recently. House price inflation has certainly been remarkable over the last few decades but as most people tend to trade up, the paper “profit” is really just an indictment on what you are going to have to pay for the next one.

I am not sure I would agree with your comments about the “current 45 year age group” having it tougher than my generation ever did. I understand where you are coming from on this point, but It is perhaps from a slightly blinkered perspective that I would venture is likely to change as more birthday cards get relegated to the junk cupboard? My oldest kids are already approaching that demographic, and whereas they might agree with you, I am not sure I would. Certainly, the overall degradation in terms and conditions puts a lot of additional pressure on people these days and that effect tends to spread out in time. I’ve been on this site for some 25 years now (clearly not in this particular guise) and I’ve seen how true that is with regards to all stages of a pilots career within that same time period.

Most pilots (or indeed anybodies) motive for uprooting to the Middle East, is broadly to find opportunity and stash some tax free cash away for whatever their perceived needs and wishes are at that point in their lives. I don’t think it really matters if you are 22, 42, or 62. Those reasons will all be valid. If it’s any consolation in the current reality, I very much doubt that older pilots made redundant will ever be invited back, whereas those with a potential decade or more ahead of them very likely will. However, I don’t believe it is incumbent on those who escape this fate to do anything other than thank the gods for smiling on them.

[14 6]

This is just pure nonsense! Are we living in a free society or not? Deciding to fly after 60 or not is nobody else’s business except your own. All decisions however come with consequences. What is worst......retiring too soon without “enough” money (in your opinion)..........or hanging on until 65 and not living long enough to even enjoy a fraction of your “fortune”? Anybody remember that NASA-study?

[Whitemonk Returns]

If I worked in EK management and somebody showed me this thread I would make sure to recall people when the time comes in true seniority order, oldest first, just to piss this 🐼 off

I am in my early thirties and have owned multiple properties in the past, one of which I sold for 100% gains in the space of 3 years as I bought it in 2011 right before prices bottomed out after the financial crash of 2008... Maybe instead of complaining that older people have had all of the advantages in life you should take a look in the mirror and tell yourself you need to get better at the game.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Mr Panda is one of two things:

- winner of the Troll of Year 2021 Award, or
- at a level of bovine stupidity so deep that he seriously expects other pilots to give up their jobs to save his sorry ass, failing to mention that at some time in the past he almost certainly hid behind some union's skirts and let his seniority save his tattered little soul. But now, seniority considerations no longer factor in his tiny, tiny little world....

Neither of this things is a cause for congratulation.

[The Outlaw]

Nailed it.