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EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

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EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

Old 28th Mar 2021, 08:20
  #1461 (permalink)  
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Whitemonk Returns

So I'm a Troll now and an idiot. This for posting an opinion held by the majority. You clearly can't face it.
It doesn't make any difference when you start your career. At 61, you only have 4 years to go. At 61, you should be financially capable of retirement.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 08:31
  #1462 (permalink)  
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kungfu panda

You sound like an immature-spoiled-kid. I am in my early 30s, and can’t accept the idea that someone who may also have struggled to get where he/she is now, after decades of commitment, suffering and working their asses off, now they simply have to “go gracefully” because life is too hard for some moaning kids, and they want less people to compete with...

stop crying, be a man a keep fighting, you will make it as well to the 60s.

I am off, no point discussing something which seems seemingly obvious, with crying babies.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 08:40
  #1463 (permalink)  
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You've got it all wrong mate.

Everyone is suffering during this pandemic. The people who would suffer the least would be those able to choose to go into an early retirement. I'm just sad that too many of those guy's selfishly cling to their position whilst watching their colleagues being put on the street. And that's what they do, I don't think there's any argument with that. That is a clear lack of integrity.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 08:57
  #1464 (permalink)  
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Kung-Fu is Right. Anyone who is NOT in a position to retire at 60 as an airline pilot took wrong turns in their lives and did bad financial decisions.
The Middle East airlines will self regulate this issue, as anyone made redundant over 60 will have absolutely NO chance of reemployment once the situation picks up again.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 09:03
  #1465 (permalink)  
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Well that's not exactly my opinion. I think that under normal (non-Covid) circumstances that everyone has the right to work until 65. Therefore if things normalise, I see no reason why over 60's should not return.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 10:54
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Kungfu, I absolutely understand what you are saying. I am the wrong side of 60 in pretty much that position. I have a son half my age, who is a furloughed Captain and like so many other people, desperately worried about the future for himself and his family. I have a lot of friends who are putting a brave face on their situation and doing whatever they can to minimise the inevitable damage, and again the huge burden of insecurity and worry is something they often try and mask. Not a day goes by when I’m not whatsapping or emailing or otherwise “chatting” with so many colleagues and friends from my past and present whose ages range from their twenties to well ahead of mine, and everywhere in-between. The common factor is fear.

Fear often makes us appear (and sometimes act) very selfish, since it is naturally instinctive to want to put ourselves and our families first. That is just how we are wired and our societal norms require a conscious modification of the natural behavioural response. This crisis (and it is a “biggie” but not the first or last,) is a “Titanic!” There simply aren’t enough lifeboats! The archetypal pilot in their twenties or thirties can make a case for all those above him/her recognising his/hers vulnerability in the career ladder. Those in their Forties with (often) large life debts (mortgages/kids/seniority/etc.) can see the compelling case where the young are flexible enough to start again, and the old have had their day and should be pushed out on the ice flows. Those in their Fifties and Sixties see the career cul-de-sac looming large on the horizon and the need to rectify the realities of what life has actually thrown their way.

We are conditioned to believe the “Sun life” and “Werthers originals” marketing, where we work until the magic day we don our tweed and start clipping the roses outside of our thatched cottage in the country, waiting for the tray of tea and biscuits to provide a natural welcome break. Unfortunately (like every other stage of life) the reality is often something far removed from the cultivated image.

I’m afraid (and often glad) that we don’t always get to choose who sits in the lifeboats. Nevertheless, whoever doesn’t should be shown help and compassion, and as an intelligent generic group (go with me on this!) we have the resources to compromise with our actual solutions.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 11:43
  #1467 (permalink)  
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Kungfu P. Good posts, some people cannot see the realities of life. It was not many years ago retirement age was 60 or younger in the posh carriers. Take the extra years of freedom as a bonus, you never know what downers life might throw up as you age.
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 12:01
  #1468 (permalink)  
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So, we agree on the definition of integrity. However, i don't see how it may be applied in this scenario. I fail to see what integrity has to do with whether a pilot over 60 chooses to stay in aviation or not. Fortunately I am not 60, yet. However, one day I will be, and hope to see out my career until 65.

I started flying later in life and am no way near ready to retire, mentally or financially, none of which is due to 'poor' decisions. Your arrogance in assuming that al pilots of a certain age that are not financially secure have made bad decisions is astounding as well as borderline discriminatory.

What other metrics could we apply to the pilot work force to reduce pilot numbers?
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Old 28th Mar 2021, 16:00
  #1469 (permalink)  
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EK changed CRA from 60 to 65 @2007 when shortage of experienced pilots ( not pilot shortage) was evident. With that change all EK pilots had more choices , should the choices be taken away ? Very hard to go back . My guess is when recall of redundant pilots all over the ME happens it will not include slightly older ones. HR departments will drive the recall not fleet ops.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 03:38
  #1470 (permalink)  
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HR will cherry pick for those who get to return, previous seniority will mean nothing. Unlike the retrenchment exercise which had to be carried out quickly using fairly crude markers to decide who got the chop, in this instance more time is available to review files and prioritise who gets to come back. Younger crew with a decent level of experience and good scores will be at the front of the queue and the airline will simply work back from there.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 05:06
  #1471 (permalink)  
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Arrogant- So I'm arrogant for expressing an opinion which conflicts with your interests.

Discrimination- That card is very loosely thrown around these days. In this case you're using it to stop me from expressing a commonly felt opinion.

Troll: Somebody who disagrees with the opinions of the previous three posters. We're all anonymous, so that can't be a factor.

I reiterate my views:

1. Under normal circumstances we all have the right to work to age 65. As stated this has been true since 2007 and is not historically the case. 60 - 65 are bonus years (in my opinion)

2. When an Airline needs to downsize it should start with the 60 - 65 group. After that work up the seniority list (again, my opinion)

3. All Pilots should target 60 as the age which they have the financial resources to retire. Due to 2 reasons (i) Passing the medical can be difficult after 60 (ii) changing job after 60 is more difficult. If you have not achieved this then normally it is down to poor decision making.

4. Pilots aged 60 - 65 who have the financial resources to retire but choose to cling to the job (like Trump), watching those 45 year old colleagues, with families and fewer resources, put onto the street do lack integrity. That is more fact than opinion. A lack of integrity doesn't stop guys but it costs them the respect which they would normally expect.

In my opinion under the current COVID circumstances the 60-65 group should gracefully retire.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 05:57
  #1472 (permalink)  
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The thing with opinions is that they are like @77holes. Everyone has one and nobody else wants to hear it.

you are entitled to your opinions but my opinion could not be more different to yours.
Old 29th Mar 2021, 06:18
  #1473 (permalink)  
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What exactly is the point of this discussion - I believe HR has spoken

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Old 29th Mar 2021, 06:53
  #1474 (permalink)  
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kungfu panda
Cant help but think that your assumption of poor decision making for someone who can't retire at 60 is coming from a place of substantial privilege. I started late to flying and used the first 10 years paying of the debt I incurred in my training. Managed to save a bit in the following years only to have to lose my job due to covid. I now have to support my family on an income a third of what I have before. With 20 years to your magical 60 number I don't have a hope in hell to have enough to retire on comfortably and will no doubt rely on the extra 5 years.

Don't generalize or paint everyone with the same brush. It only makes you look like an idiot. If someone wants to continue working after 60 then best luck to them. I would much rather sit next to them in the flight deck then you. I'm sure they have way better stories compared to listening to you talk about your amazing financial spreadsheets.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 09:49
  #1475 (permalink)  

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I for one agree with kungfupanda, in so far as those able to afford to retire before 65 should do so. This is morally good, in that it is an action intended to help less financially able. Simply that.

I witnessed the occasional philanthropic act of just this at bmi, back in 2001/2, when Bishop summarily chopped many pilots after 9/11.
It happened again at TCX during the frequent pilot culls. But rarely.

HOWEVER, there were MANY MORE wealthy guys in their early/mid 60's who did not budge. Their reasons they gave were that they simply enjoyed the job and had worked hard to get there. They had massive pension pots, which they often boasted about. They often sought advice on the flight deck.as to where to invest all their extra money. I could name some now, so many years later. They were despised.I believe there are quite a few at BA like this on the 777 fleet, and presumably the 350/787 fleets too. This is a sad state of affairs. Man's inhumanity to man is alive and well in BA.

Greed unfortunately over-rules almost everything in the airline world, from senior managers down to the occasional thieving cabin crew member. Senior pilots are no exception. And this is doubtless also the case in the benighted and godless sandpit.

My best wishes and hopes to the young indebted people, who do need a leg up.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 10:26
  #1476 (permalink)  
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I think the crux is those who have the financial means to retire. A 60 year old who has not been as lucky as others may well need to stay till 65 so that they have a chance of a decent retirement.

Personally I do not think the age has a relevance, in fact the opposite it many ways. An older person may need those few short remaining years to top up a pension where possibly a younger possibly financially shrewd or financially independent individual may well already have the means, be they 40 or 60. It could be argued that a 35-40 year old has plenty of time to investigate a new career, an option a ‘poor’ 60 year old doesn’t have.

Drawing a line in the proverbial sand at an age that you feel fitting, is myopic.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 10:55
  #1477 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by felixthecat
Drawing a line in the proverbial sand at an age that you feel fitting, is myopic.
I agree with that. You need more parameters.

It was done at Swissair when it went broke: All above 52 were released, just as the youngest in the selection, training and probation phase. The parameter was however not essentially age, but the size of the quite nicely bolstered provident fund of these older pilots. With the new T&Cs at the unfriendly-taking over company Swiss, it was extrapolated what the youngest copilot in his new career would have summed up at the age of 60. Most over 52 at Swissair apparently already had way more than that and thus it was deemed fair to release them first.
Up to you to decide what is more fair, but there is a certain logic to target some older ones first. That however applies as well to the very youngest, as they can reroute their aspirations much easier and more successfully than a 45 year old pilot married with kids.
The thing i might add is, that this has to be done in a coordinated way. To expect the individual to go down that road alone is naive and preposterous.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 14:32
  #1478 (permalink)  
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It's a non-starter. There are too many variables at play to force any demographic out. I agree that it'd be nice thought if those wealthy enough, or with other opportunities would step aside; Voluntary retirement was the first step of many airlines during COVID.

But that's the word, voluntary.

You can't judge someones financials on age. Divorce, or redundancy doesn't mean someone failed in their duties of financial planning to the extent of being labelled as having no integrity.
You can't assess who's "rich enough" either. Can't reward people with reckless spending and punish those with diligent savings.

Having said that:
I expect for rejoiners, there will be a 5 year bond in place. And that in itself will rule out anyone over 60, whether or not they are ready for it.
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 14:50
  #1479 (permalink)  
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I did enjoy that discussion. Well done Panda!
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Old 29th Mar 2021, 16:00
  #1480 (permalink)  
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kungfu panda - Age limit is 65. End of story. Leave aviation business and join the Communist Party of your country. This is right place for you.
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