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BBC Middle East

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

BBC Middle East

Old 26th Jan 2019, 20:45
  #21 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
TFS-ARN-TFS anyone. That’s about 12-13 hrs flight time in a 737. Add in turnaround plus check in maybe a slot. 14+ hour day easily. EASA says that’s fine.
No they do not. 14 is the limit and you could only do 7 days like that in a month evenly distributed, and end up with 3 months of free time in a calendar year being maxed out at 900 hrs.

If you cannot grasp these simple home rules properly, are you sure your (distant) views on the sandpit pilot existence are accurate?
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 22:20
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Detent, be careful with him, he only has 2000hrs and is trying to catch up . But those 777s are very lage shiny . He knows it it all . We are wasting his time .
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 23:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
No they do not. 14 is the limit and you could only do 7 days like that in a month evenly distributed, and end up with 3 months of free time in a calendar year being maxed out at 900 hrs.

If you cannot grasp these simple home rules properly, are you sure your (distant) views on the sandpit pilot existence are accurate?
I understand it to be 12 hrs but extension of 2 hrs is allowed on top of that?
Not including duties after parking brake is applied.

Last edited by AIMINGHIGH123; 26th Jan 2019 at 23:29.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 08:32
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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This guy is so obviously taking the piss, the only mystery is how everyone has taken the bait. You are likely talking to some bored teen in his attic scratching himself for a living right now.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 15:21
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I bet AH is the type who stops by the supermarket in uniform on his way home just to make sure the laydees know he is a pilot... don't forget the company ID 'casually' on the gym bag so the chicks working out can get a glimpse and go weak at the knees because a skygod is in their mere presence

He counts days off in base like you can actually DO anything with them 98% of the time... lol
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 06:43
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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If nothing else, the BBC reporter certainly has a story in the mental state of pilots (or attic dwelling teens) that would terrify the flying public.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 10:36
  #27 (permalink)  
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Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all of your posts, they've been really helpful.

I fully understand the level of hesitation involved in contacting me.

If you do get in touch, it will be under anonymity.

As previously stated I’m keen to hear regarding people’s experiences with The FTLs, fatigue, and the Middle East.

Many thanks,

Orla



Last edited by poohpooh1; 28th Jan 2019 at 11:44.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 19:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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You will find the FTL's more or less the same with most CAA's. Don't confuse union negotiated FTLs with CAA FTLs. Fatigue is subjective and very individual. Some of the ME boys and girls mistakenly think they are hard done by . There are plenty of options now on the market but they neglect to take advantage of them. Instead just complain and continually look for sympathy.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 06:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you so much for all of your posts, they've been really helpful.
Now you have gleaned such info what do you intend to do with it? What sort of programme do you have in mind? With everything said above it sounds like you could have a 'Jeremy Kyle' type of show on your hands.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 16:38
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post


I understand it to be 12 hrs but extension of 2 hrs is allowed on top of that?
Not including duties after parking brake is applied.
AIMINGHIGH You're a loose cannon. Under CAP371 (old UK) you could do 2 sectors 13.15hrs + 1.15hr variation (level3) and 2 hours discretion.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 16:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fatbus View Post
You will find the FTL's more or less the same with most CAA's. Don't confuse union negotiated FTLs with CAA FTLs. Fatigue is subjective and very individual. Some of the ME boys and girls mistakenly think they are hard done by . There are plenty of options now on the market but they neglect to take advantage of them. Instead just complain and continually look for sympathy.
Fatbus can't wait to see the replies!
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 17:33
  #32 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley View Post
AIMINGHIGH You're a loose cannon. Under CAP371 (old UK) you could do 2 sectors 13.15hrs + 1.15hr variation (level3) and 2 hours discretion.
To complement: EASA is only happy until 13 hrs FDP on a 2 sector day outside of the red eye zone.

Beyond that, through loops and hoops with implications, 15 is the absolute max for 2 pilot ops sans inflight rest. Plannable only up to 14 hrs, however. The last hour is for the unforeseen AFTER the duty would commence.






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Old 30th Jan 2019, 06:49
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Here this should settle it

https://understandingeasa2016ftl.fil...d-ftl-2017.pdf

However they don’t take allowance for after flight duties. Unless you just park brake on and go.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 14:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Orla, I believe this isn't the first thread here on this same topic. What, if anything, came of the previous thread a couple of years ago?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 18:48
  #35 (permalink)  
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Hi there,

Thanks so much for your responses.

I’m totally happy to discuss my previous post with anybody would like to contact me directly.

Many thanks,

Orla
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 23:53
  #36 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
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Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
However they don’t take allowance for after flight duties. Unless you just park brake on and go.
Yes they do. The rest only begins after the post-flight duties are finished. Which must be included in the max weekly duty limit. ORO.FTL.210(a). Here's a better link for future studies https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/general-publications/easy-access-rules-air-operations.

Last edited by FlightDetent; 31st Jan 2019 at 00:03.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 23:42
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by poohpooh1 View Post
Hi there,

Thanks so much for your responses.

I’m totally happy to discuss my previous post with anybody would like to contact me directly.

Many thanks,

Orla

PPRuNe was banned in the Middle East as it was having a negative outcome on positive recruitment. Current pilots in the Middle East are wary of posting here.

Many pilots fly to the maximum permissible hours as dictated by GCAA (Gulf Civil Aviation Authority) “guidelines”.

As pilots fly/operate the aircraft (takeoff and landing), they log Operating hours fully. As pilot gets near to the maximum permissible hours, companies make the pilots Augment which means they become “cruise” pilots. The problem becomes that an Augment pilot is only credited with a much lower credited flight/stick time, even though that pilot is in the aircraft as much as the operating pilots. After 2 Augment sectors, perhaps of 20 hours in the aircraft, the Augment pilot might only be credited with only 12 hours flight time which reduces that pilots overall “perceived” time at work. To summarise, the operating pilots log 20 hours and the previously overworked pilot who is augmenting will now only be able to log 12 hours stick time, even though all pilots spent the same time in the aircraft.

Anotherway for a pilot who is running high on flying hours to be utilised is to put them on simulator standby at any time day or night. This simulator duty is not counted towards flight time maximum limitations, but a simulator duty is actually often more exhausting than a normal flight.

Hence, the practice of making high hour pilots fly Augment flights and become a simulator stand in tires the pilot much more while actually bringing down the pilots hours when he can then operate flights in a potentially more tired state.

To many it’s part of the job but I have heard Pilots in all Airlines say that they wouldn’t drive their car as tired as they fly the plane in certain situations.

Rgds

Jack
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 05:27
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jack schidt View Post



PPRuNe was banned in the Middle East as it was having a negative outcome on positive recruitment. Current pilots in the Middle East are wary of posting here.

Many pilots fly to the maximum permissible hours as dictated by GCAA (Gulf Civil Aviation Authority) “guidelines”.

As pilots fly/operate the aircraft (takeoff and landing), they log Operating hours fully. As pilot gets near to the maximum permissible hours, companies make the pilots Augment which means they become “cruise” pilots. The problem becomes that an Augment pilot is only credited with a much lower credited flight/stick time, even though that pilot is in the aircraft as much as the operating pilots. After 2 Augment sectors, perhaps of 20 hours in the aircraft, the Augment pilot might only be credited with only 12 hours flight time which reduces that pilots overall “perceived” time at work. To summarise, the operating pilots log 20 hours and the previously overworked pilot who is augmenting will now only be able to log 12 hours stick time, even though all pilots spent the same time in the aircraft.

Anotherway for a pilot who is running high on flying hours to be utilised is to put them on simulator standby at any time day or night. This simulator duty is not counted towards flight time maximum limitations, but a simulator duty is actually often more exhausting than a normal flight.

Hence, the practice of making high hour pilots fly Augment flights and become a simulator stand in tires the pilot much more while actually bringing down the pilots hours when he can then operate flights in a potentially more tired state.

To many it’s part of the job but I have heard Pilots in all Airlines say that they wouldn’t drive their car as tired as they fly the plane in certain situations.

Rgds

Jack

Jack,

I worked at EK for 14 years and i can safely say that what you have posted is 100% true. There have been numerous times that I have been so fatigued at work (on a roster that was "legal") that is was difficult to count the fingers on one hand. Interestingly, if given the choice to fly fatigued or fly drunk, I'd pick flying drunk anytime despite never having done so. I have flown fatigued with EK many times, part of the reason I told them it was time to look elsewhere for a pay cheque.

The clock is ticking and their luck will run out....CNN is waiting with the global coverage when it does....because it will be a history making event!


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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:58
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
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i used to work in Europe and i have moved to the middle east
i can speak with you for this matter and why pilots is not interested in Europe anymore
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:08
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by super380 View Post
i used to work in Europe and i have moved to the middle east
i can speak with you for this matter and why pilots is not interested in Europe anymore
after your honeymoon in the middle east is over, you will be interested in europe again...
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