Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer
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This is from the SINGAPORE AOC regulations pertaining to FDP:
The maximum permitted (rostered) Flight Duty Period may be extended when the Normal Flight Crew complement is augmented with Augmented Flight Crew according to the following:
a) Up to a maximum FDP of 15 hours if augmented with one flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for one pilot.
b) Up to a maximum FDP of 18 hours if augmented with two flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for two pilots.
Bear in mind that the Regulator also allows a maximum of 3 hours duty extension (at commander's discretion).
The maximum permitted (rostered) Flight Duty Period may be extended when the Normal Flight Crew complement is augmented with Augmented Flight Crew according to the following:
a) Up to a maximum FDP of 15 hours if augmented with one flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for one pilot.
b) Up to a maximum FDP of 18 hours if augmented with two flight crew (each flight crew member can leave their assigned post and be replaced by another appropriately qualified flight crew member for the purpose of in-flight rest) and appropriate rest facilities are available for two pilots.
Bear in mind that the Regulator also allows a maximum of 3 hours duty extension (at commander's discretion).
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Have read the new rules for LRVs, I stand corrected, the max duty is 18hrs!
Unless, in exceptional circumstances, however it can be extended with management approval, nothing about crew approval required.
What constitutes exceptional circumstances? Diversion? Delayed ex DXB for fog/sand?
Normal FTL limits don’t apply!
Unless, in exceptional circumstances, however it can be extended with management approval, nothing about crew approval required.
What constitutes exceptional circumstances? Diversion? Delayed ex DXB for fog/sand?
Normal FTL limits don’t apply!
At least that's how I read it.
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Right now the most recent line in the OM-A that counts is:
For 3 man crew operations, no extension is allowed beyond the FDP of 18 hours.
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Going to Oz is much trickier on FTLs than the states. If you go into CAR-OPs 1, the following limits apply:
900 block hours in a year (there is no definition of stick time)
100 in 28
Non-acclimatised longest possible duty without relief 13 hours on return
Extension possible 1/2 rest so 14hr flight, 3 crew best you’ll do is 2.15
So max duty 15.15
Max flight time 14.15
Block today 14.00 hours
So we exceed annual limit and monthly limit and push daily limits used by other operators who have sufficient crew.
But SAFE, a program that assumes robotic sleep and rest patterns, designed by an OA firm says it is fine.
Still our new SVP who has flown 2 hour sectors for the last few years says it is safe....so it must be😱
You couldn’t make it up😳
900 block hours in a year (there is no definition of stick time)
100 in 28
Non-acclimatised longest possible duty without relief 13 hours on return
Extension possible 1/2 rest so 14hr flight, 3 crew best you’ll do is 2.15
So max duty 15.15
Max flight time 14.15
Block today 14.00 hours
So we exceed annual limit and monthly limit and push daily limits used by other operators who have sufficient crew.
But SAFE, a program that assumes robotic sleep and rest patterns, designed by an OA firm says it is fine.
Still our new SVP who has flown 2 hour sectors for the last few years says it is safe....so it must be😱
You couldn’t make it up😳
Dear Brian
Dear Brian,
Well its been an interesting week to say the least, all vestiges of a new broom or breath of fresh air have been well and truly dispelled, exactly as many predicted including most regular posters on here.
I believe it must be clear to you by now that our employer has very little interest in safety if it impacts negatively on the bottom line or worse, shows how inept the standard of management is, a state of affairs I'm certain a great many of my colleagues will have communicated to you at various moments.
The latest level of "acceptance" you have described is yet another erosion in safety standards masquerading its legitimacy behind a flawed and some might infer corrupt process, moreover its also clear that scant regard has been paid to the previous lessons that were learnt along with the more recent lessons relating to cumulative fatigue, safety margins and pilot retention.
As ever, pilots being pilots, the vast majority will attempt to complete the mission, the vast majority will complete the mission successfully, until one crew doesn't and that Brian is a great deal closer to occurring on your watch.
Make no mistake, if you continue to roll the dice and reduce margins luck eventually runs out.
I hope Brian that you can see that amongst the flight-crews who are still here, you can see a determination to maintain professional standards and keep doing the job to the best of our abilities, I also hope you can now see that the goodwill you sought to foster has in one decision been lost.
Best of Luck.
Well its been an interesting week to say the least, all vestiges of a new broom or breath of fresh air have been well and truly dispelled, exactly as many predicted including most regular posters on here.
I believe it must be clear to you by now that our employer has very little interest in safety if it impacts negatively on the bottom line or worse, shows how inept the standard of management is, a state of affairs I'm certain a great many of my colleagues will have communicated to you at various moments.
The latest level of "acceptance" you have described is yet another erosion in safety standards masquerading its legitimacy behind a flawed and some might infer corrupt process, moreover its also clear that scant regard has been paid to the previous lessons that were learnt along with the more recent lessons relating to cumulative fatigue, safety margins and pilot retention.
As ever, pilots being pilots, the vast majority will attempt to complete the mission, the vast majority will complete the mission successfully, until one crew doesn't and that Brian is a great deal closer to occurring on your watch.
Make no mistake, if you continue to roll the dice and reduce margins luck eventually runs out.
I hope Brian that you can see that amongst the flight-crews who are still here, you can see a determination to maintain professional standards and keep doing the job to the best of our abilities, I also hope you can now see that the goodwill you sought to foster has in one decision been lost.
Best of Luck.
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short flights long nights
One thing is for sure, T and C's keep going only one way...and it aint good.
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900 BLOCK HRS is a CAR OPS requirement a year
You have normal FTLs then you have variations then you have LRV (Long Range Variation)
LRV MUST be of a higher standard or equivalent to normal FTLs they can not be of less standard.
Normal 3 man crew can go max 18 hours duty however as that is all-ready a variation you can not have further extension.
If by some chance you do go over the 18 hours Duty then a local nights rest is a requirement.
Incorrect of the company to state that your 900 limit is based on Stick time. Absolute fairy dust
If you are one of those pilots flying over 900 BLOCK hours in 12 months at the end of the previous month you are not legal, period.
Emirates have a lot of issues they are not admitting to. Flying pilots over 900 Block hours and saying stick time applies instead is yet another.
Check CAR-OPS 1 sub section Q copied below
LRV MUST be of a higher standard or equivalent to normal FTLs they can not be of less standard.
Normal 3 man crew can go max 18 hours duty however as that is all-ready a variation you can not have further extension.
If by some chance you do go over the 18 hours Duty then a local nights rest is a requirement.
Incorrect of the company to state that your 900 limit is based on Stick time. Absolute fairy dust
If you are one of those pilots flying over 900 BLOCK hours in 12 months at the end of the previous month you are not legal, period.
Emirates have a lot of issues they are not admitting to. Flying pilots over 900 Block hours and saying stick time applies instead is yet another.
Check CAR-OPS 1 sub section Q copied below
CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period
a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or
(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or
(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
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Posting the below after seeing several inaccurate statements re USA Flight Time - Crew complement maximums.
Below is the actual published rules for flight time. The duty time limits, that is the cumulative time between work show to work end vary based on the pilot's start time.
Depending on the start time the window of allowable duty can be very small for flight times approaching 13 hours to fly with only 3 pilots. This is why many US pilots
think that 12 is the maximum for 3 pilot complement. If one is rostered for an morning westbound flight it's legal, and usual, at my airline to fly with 3 pilots. If there is
a delay we have bumped up on the duty limits and have had to cancel the segment.
============================================================ ==================================================
(1) Will exceed the limits specified in Table A of this part if the operation is conducted with the minimum required flightcrew.
(2) Will exceed 13 hours if the operation is conducted with a 3-pilot flightcrew.
(3) Will exceed 17 hours if the operation is conducted with a 4-pilot flightcrew.
- 3 pilots can fly up to 13 flight hours max
- 4 pilots can fly up to 17 flight hours max
Below is the actual published rules for flight time. The duty time limits, that is the cumulative time between work show to work end vary based on the pilot's start time.
Depending on the start time the window of allowable duty can be very small for flight times approaching 13 hours to fly with only 3 pilots. This is why many US pilots
think that 12 is the maximum for 3 pilot complement. If one is rostered for an morning westbound flight it's legal, and usual, at my airline to fly with 3 pilots. If there is
a delay we have bumped up on the duty limits and have had to cancel the segment.
============================================================ ==================================================
FAR 117.11 Flight time limitation.
(a) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment or continue an assigned flight duty period if the total flight time:(1) Will exceed the limits specified in Table A of this part if the operation is conducted with the minimum required flightcrew.
(2) Will exceed 13 hours if the operation is conducted with a 3-pilot flightcrew.
(3) Will exceed 17 hours if the operation is conducted with a 4-pilot flightcrew.
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By the way, where is Harry telling us that we got it all wrong? Another misunderstanding of the company‘s well intended rostering options. A good way for guys to build stick time quicker than before.
Or have they gone too far this time?
Or have they gone too far this time?
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short flights long nights
I to have been wondering where Harry is. He was very quiet on the ( non) pay review and now we have this little gem of safety enhancement and productivity gain for no extra $$$$ ( BBJ must have got tips from TCAS), and still no comment from our Harry.
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I can bet my 5 weeks that Flight Dispatch will be asked allot by NCC to speed up the flights so that the FDP is still legal before dispatch.
I feel for you okes. Good luck. Keep it safe!
I feel for you okes. Good luck. Keep it safe!
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I do hope many of the posters on here have backed up their venting with action.
Yes, It may not get it reversed but God forbid if there is an accident and subsequent investigation and presumably a civil trial - and it was shown that many had voiced their concerns but were ignored... you can at least hold your head up and say:
“I tried”
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Bravo Monarch Man, well written. Expessed how I feel precisely. We took Harry’s advice and gave the bloke a chance, and low and behold, we’re in than same position we’ve been in with every other shackled ‘leader’. Commercial vs Safety and we know who the winner is every time.
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[email protected]
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After reading all these posts it makes me worry! Does Bryan come from easyJet? Perhaps he should remind the top management who after all have the final say so, about the most famous statement that Stelios made in the early easyJet days.
”IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT”!!!
After reading all this and what’s happening it seems they end up with the leftover experienced guys flying with cadets who just graduated which effectively would almost be a single pilot operation flying widebody jets in a state of exhaustion. Trying to keep the vigilance and alert levels up???
I can’t help it but with my common sense but this seems to me that they are playing a game of Russian roulette. Effectively sowing the seeds for something I don’t want to mention.
Good luck to all of you!
”IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT”!!!
After reading all this and what’s happening it seems they end up with the leftover experienced guys flying with cadets who just graduated which effectively would almost be a single pilot operation flying widebody jets in a state of exhaustion. Trying to keep the vigilance and alert levels up???
I can’t help it but with my common sense but this seems to me that they are playing a game of Russian roulette. Effectively sowing the seeds for something I don’t want to mention.
Good luck to all of you!