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Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Emirates 3 crew long haul destinations this Summer

Old 21st May 2018, 12:57
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Arakis
Posts: 179
Guys the OMA is written in such a way that it helps operator not the pilot , pointless to keep winging about it and discussing the nitty gritty of what it says in the manual. not going to get you anywhere .

As your boss told you ...this is how much they pay you in the future, this is how they will operate so get over it stop being cry babies..period!!

For expats there are so many opportunities out there you had a good inning now move on. For locals I don’t know they could go down south or maybe not south ok go north then to LC or the other side of the runway 30R. Nothing is forever , stop living in denial, the sooner the reality sets in and you accept the new world order of airline operations ...the sooner you can move forward. You’ve been playing with there shiny jets long enough now Give them back...playtime is over...take the bitter pill and leave.

Remember the old days when other poster on here told you not to come in the first place to the sand pit....hello you did not listen then so..let’s try again a second time you should not have come.....ok? So now go and make a strong coffee and sit on your desk and polish the cv..believe me when you have done that you will feel soooo...much better. Believe me I tried it it’s great feeling Cofffee and CV writing I mean.
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Old 21st May 2018, 13:00
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
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Originally Posted by in freedom View Post
You will have every right to be fatigued at the outstation because these trips will be coupled with a scheduling violation of:

OM-A 7.2.c, the avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights crossing many time zones. 


It is impossible to properly sleep twice on a 24 hour layover, which is exactly what's needed: a proper sleep after and a proper sleep before these cruel duties.
In Freedom. Your right but it depends on the trip. The history of 18-30 hours rest periods and their avoidance was UK Charter carriers flying 757's to Orlando on day / night rotations.
Those were the days of waking up in America and watching Mickey Mouse and Gospel channels in the middle of the night. However for some other trips e.g. night / day and 18-30 hours you do get two sleep opportunities and the ability to recover in the companies time rather than at home. This does however requires crews to stay on local time a big ask depending on the trip / hotel / noise etc. There is some science to support this also.

The biggest problem crews face is they are faced with multiple trips of differing nature with each needing specific sleep plans. If EK wanted to do it properly they would do data gathering as well as listen to the crews. This is FRM at its best.
Judging by the amount of feedback on this topic I suspect this may not be the case.
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Old 21st May 2018, 14:24
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 45
Well well well - there you go the position is out:

FLIGHT OPERATIONS RISK MANAGER - 180000T3
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Old 21st May 2018, 14:39
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: free Europe
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Originally Posted by GKOC41 View Post
This does however requires crews to stay on local time ..........a big ask depending on the trip / hotel / noise etc. There is some science to support this also.

The biggest problem crews face is they are faced with multiple trips of differing nature with each needing specific sleep plans. If EK wanted to do it properly they would do data gathering as well as listen to the crews. This is FRM at its best. Judging by the amount of feedback on this topic I suspect this may not be the case.
The Fatigue Risk Management at EK is a farce. It's only there to pretend this is a properly regulated airline. It's not.

I don't think EK crews are ever on local time. A daytime departure or landing at the home base is sort of an abnormal situation. I am sure they will introduce a special checklist for day light landings eventually.
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Old 21st May 2018, 15:14
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Springfield
Posts: 282
3 months worth of ASR data to the regulator and the rule usually changes. Standard modus operandi, look back at 24hr US layovers, three months later 48hr, only for the next new destination to be 24hrs, and so on... 3 months buys a lot of time for the bouncy castle to solve the shortage. BM in regulatory affairs was a master at it. It appears the technique lives on...
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Old 21st May 2018, 15:41
  #106 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Originally Posted by glofish View Post
Fuzuma

The argument that calling in sick, as pointed out here, is not fair because you put strain on a colleague is bullocks. You call in sick because you are not fit for flight, basta. If someone else is called out, it is his assessment if he's fit or not, not yours!
I presume all on here agree, that calling in sick, for the sake of not rested enough or fatigued, on the outbound leg should not happen. Normally we get enough rest before. What is propagated, is not to refrain from calling in fatigued or not rested enough when you feel like that down the route. This is unsafe and contradicts the OMA. The new proposed rules will very rapidly and very regularly put you in exactly this position. On a normal day we all might go for such FTLs, but on too many occasions there are parameters that go against a normal day and lead to more fatigue and exhaustion.
Now that is the exact scenario where we say "grow balls" and call in sick. You are basically obliged to do so, in the name of safety! Yours and the one of our crew and customers. You will have ammunition for your sick/fatigued report. Use them, point them out on your report and get more rest.
This is a legal and efficient way to fight this outrageous breach of safety precaution by the company. It is also almost the only way the company and the eunuchs at the regulators will listen.
You make very good points Gloyee..except one. i don't believe on the rosters you fly you can ever be properly rested (even if you take leave the rest of the month is compressed). The problem is you dont realise just how tired you actually are...the state you live in becomes the "new normal". And it is not until you leave and stop flying the ridiculous hours and rosters you actually work out how tired you really were. So I truley believe.that crews, even departing DXB are never properly rested. And this crazy new 3 man crewing idea will only make the whole thing worse.
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Old 21st May 2018, 17:07
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai
Posts: 218
Cant see much changing

PJ your incorrect
3 months worth of ASR data to the regulator and the rule usually changes.
ORD (Chicago) had 20 months worth of ASRs before the short 24 hr or so lay over was changed to around 48hrs this despite nearly half the ASRs submitted complaining of tiredness , fatigue and noise issue. There should not be a set limit on time or required number of ASRs to trigger corrective action. Yes BM was the Master unfortunately the Master's Apprentice remains as his prodigy and life went on becoming just as creative in his interpretations as BM

GKOC41 your correct regarding the 18 -30 hr the GCAA FTLs were based around the UK CAAP 371 . Emirates stated "commercial reasons" when questioned by the GCAA. So nothing changed .
We don't have a FRMS system and will never see one in Emirates.Has to supported top down.
Will never happen.
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Old 21st May 2018, 17:21
  #108 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,915
Hate to bring up Train Driving again...Harry might get upset. However we have a FRMS system that works. Start at 4.00 am...must be finished by !0.00 am..(including 40 minute meal beak)..I wont go on with the rest..just to say..If I start at 8.00 am in the morning the longest shift I can do is 8 hours 30 minutes..including meal breaks....now lets talk about the 9 weeks annual leave.....
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Old 21st May 2018, 19:26
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 139
Letís talk about the salary after tax?
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Old 21st May 2018, 20:03
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Money of course , here comes the real motivation in this place….
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Old 21st May 2018, 20:07
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 200
Letís talk about long term health as the motivation to leave. All the tax free dollars in the world canít buy back ill health, which is a possible and potential outcome of the rosters that are being flown.
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Old 21st May 2018, 20:24
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norway
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Originally Posted by Xulu View Post
Letís talk about the salary after tax?
Letís talk about the cost to your family of you dying young, or ahead of your ďtimeĒ anyway.
Not one medical professional has a good word to say about these rosters.

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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:01
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: i'm in the parking lot
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My friend, a doc at ek clinic, said to me back in 2013!!! that they knew these rosters were unlike any tried before in the history of aviation. That, as in many things ek, they wished to be the pathfinder, the new paradigm....

I could go on and on, all things said above and before.....

get out she said.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 03:21
  #114 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Turtle just got in front of me. What EK pilots are, are a part of a large experiment, the likes of which has never been attempted before in aviation.

No other group of pilots have ever flown the hours and/or the rosters under the conditions that EK pilots have been suffering for several years now.

And every time you think they canít make it worse, they do.

Nobody has an idea what it is doing to your health.

Nio amount of $$$ can make up for that.

Stay safe out there.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 10:16
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Turtle just got in front of me. What EK pilots are, are a part of a large experiment, the likes of which has never been attempted before in aviation.

No other group of pilots have ever flown the hours and/or the rosters under the conditions that EK pilots have been suffering for several years now.

And every time you think they canít make it worse, they do.

Nobody has an idea what it is doing to your health.

Nio amount of $$$ can make up for that.

Stay safe out there.
Same as everywhere else, you think anybody whoís 65 now ever tried LCC 4 sectors 12 hours days with almost minimum rest, for 4/5 days in a row before?
Thatís what April to November looks like in most companies in Europe.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:01
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In the back of a bus
Posts: 954
Yeah but when you're slogging for an LCC or short haul doing a ton of sectors they're generally in the same time zone and you're back in your own bed (even if it is min rest) Ultra long haul can't be compared to that.

I've flown extremely short haul (2-7 sectors in a day, repeatedly), medium haul and EK rosters. EK rosters are like nothing else, it's a whole different kind of "tired"
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:08
  #117 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,915
GMW... was just about to say the same thing.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:16
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 207
LCC is hard work in the summer. But you also have to remember that in winter you hardly fly. So basically every year you're getting 4-5 months to recharge your batteries. There is no comparison between LCC and the kind of tiredness you experience in some 'long haul' airlines these days.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 13:27
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Old 22nd May 2018, 16:49
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 415
Are hotel rooms really quiet to get a good night sleep? I somehow feel there is always something going on like construction or noisy guests or kids.
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