Things to ponder when considering EK
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 33
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not even going to attempt to argue that there is nothing wrong with the ME3. I know people working on the ground for one of them and have an idea of what things are like.
However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing their points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?
I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.
However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing their points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?
I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.
Last edited by MaverickPrime; 23rd Jan 2018 at 19:44.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Far, Far Away
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not even going to attempt to argue that there is nothing wrong with the ME3. I know people working on the ground for one of them and have an idea of what things are like.
However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing there points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?
I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.
However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing there points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?
I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
greenfields
If people leave a Company, then surely they must be unhappy with that Company? Unless of course it's family reasons. I'm not disagreeing with WHY they leave, just that they'd still be here if life was acceptable to them, both personally in Dubai and professionally within EK. I also don't accept the argument that negative posts paint an accurate picture. Accurate posts paint an accurate picture and all of our viewpoints will be unique. From experience, the majority of those in the unhappy camp fall into three categories. Firstly, those mainly from the US that came here for work in 2008-2009 and never really intended staying long term. The second, and perhaps most aggrieved, are the 'victims' of fleet/training, whether justified or not and the third are pilots with personal issues. This will be those with bitter or acrimonious divorce especially where young kids move away. It makes life bloody difficult and commuting now becomes a big stressor too. My point being that our impression of the airline will be based directly on how it effects your own personal well being and lifestyle. There are many genuine concerns and not for one minute would anyone think this place is perfect, far from it. But, and maybe I'm wrong, your post alludes to the fact that these sometimes emotional and embellished posts are justified. Justified in the hope of significantly reducing new joiners and, therefore, force the Company into improving the package? Well, my argument to that is it's not necessary. Just the facts alone are enough to prove we're already falling way behind what other airlines are offering. Post such as that from Yorkshire pudding do us no favours. Is that really from a professional pilot? I shan't even start on Talparc!
TyphoonPilot
Yes, as with a lot of your posts, I agree. However, the reason for highlighting the two US individuals was exactly as you stated. Because that region is now recruiting heavily again, the number of US pilots in EK has reduced dramatically. There were almost 20% here in 2011. Now there are around 11%. The bond is a contentious issue but I would have to ask myself that if their intention was to leave, and they must have known approximately when, is it right to accept the course ahead of someone who would be staying? It's cost in time, precious training manpower and simulator resources that those individuals took when they could have been better utilised for a longer term upgrade candidate. I'm not looking at it entirely from the Companies perspective, more from a selfishly shafting your colleague one, but I can see why the airline imposed it. One individual leaving in 2006 is slightly different to 4 in quick succession in 2017. That statistic clearly reflects how EK is no longer the airline of choice. Unless something dramatic is done within the next 12-18 months, conditions here will only deteriorate further.
YP
Why not spend half an hour looking through the outstation briefs. I think you'll find plenty of hotels away from the airport to make your sad life happier!
Just off the top of my head on the Boeing fleet alone, SEA, MCO, FLL, EZE, BNE, SIN, RGN, HKT, VIE, MUC, GLA, NCL, BUD. There are plenty more.
Harry
If people leave a Company, then surely they must be unhappy with that Company? Unless of course it's family reasons. I'm not disagreeing with WHY they leave, just that they'd still be here if life was acceptable to them, both personally in Dubai and professionally within EK. I also don't accept the argument that negative posts paint an accurate picture. Accurate posts paint an accurate picture and all of our viewpoints will be unique. From experience, the majority of those in the unhappy camp fall into three categories. Firstly, those mainly from the US that came here for work in 2008-2009 and never really intended staying long term. The second, and perhaps most aggrieved, are the 'victims' of fleet/training, whether justified or not and the third are pilots with personal issues. This will be those with bitter or acrimonious divorce especially where young kids move away. It makes life bloody difficult and commuting now becomes a big stressor too. My point being that our impression of the airline will be based directly on how it effects your own personal well being and lifestyle. There are many genuine concerns and not for one minute would anyone think this place is perfect, far from it. But, and maybe I'm wrong, your post alludes to the fact that these sometimes emotional and embellished posts are justified. Justified in the hope of significantly reducing new joiners and, therefore, force the Company into improving the package? Well, my argument to that is it's not necessary. Just the facts alone are enough to prove we're already falling way behind what other airlines are offering. Post such as that from Yorkshire pudding do us no favours. Is that really from a professional pilot? I shan't even start on Talparc!
TyphoonPilot
Yes, as with a lot of your posts, I agree. However, the reason for highlighting the two US individuals was exactly as you stated. Because that region is now recruiting heavily again, the number of US pilots in EK has reduced dramatically. There were almost 20% here in 2011. Now there are around 11%. The bond is a contentious issue but I would have to ask myself that if their intention was to leave, and they must have known approximately when, is it right to accept the course ahead of someone who would be staying? It's cost in time, precious training manpower and simulator resources that those individuals took when they could have been better utilised for a longer term upgrade candidate. I'm not looking at it entirely from the Companies perspective, more from a selfishly shafting your colleague one, but I can see why the airline imposed it. One individual leaving in 2006 is slightly different to 4 in quick succession in 2017. That statistic clearly reflects how EK is no longer the airline of choice. Unless something dramatic is done within the next 12-18 months, conditions here will only deteriorate further.
YP
Why not spend half an hour looking through the outstation briefs. I think you'll find plenty of hotels away from the airport to make your sad life happier!
Just off the top of my head on the Boeing fleet alone, SEA, MCO, FLL, EZE, BNE, SIN, RGN, HKT, VIE, MUC, GLA, NCL, BUD. There are plenty more.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 24th Jan 2018 at 07:40.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hotels by the numbers
There are 115 listed in Chap 5 of Per Diem Manual with associated contract expiry dates - roughly 20% are airport hotels. (23/115)
Lost of hysteria here lately - can we try to keep it objective.
There are 115 listed in Chap 5 of Per Diem Manual with associated contract expiry dates - roughly 20% are airport hotels. (23/115)
Lost of hysteria here lately - can we try to keep it objective.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can you share with us the source of information on this new policy?
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South America
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That bad compared to FZ?
Hello guys, I’ve been following this thread and first I want to thanks everyone for giving us outside the job the the big picture about working for EK beyond flying shiny widebody airplanes.
I recently passed the screening at FZ but to be honest I’m having second thoughts about not considering EK, and since I will be going to the ME, I’m thinking why don’t apply to EK anyway..
I’m very aware of the working conditions you all posted here, however I can’t go anywhere else and I can’t stay home. I might be able to work in EU in the future (I have passport but not EASA license) so I'm planning to be at the ME at least 3-5 years or longer if family is happy and I can keep up with the roster. I think there are not good salaries in EU at least for FO.
So considering this, is it EK that bad comparing it with FZ and not with Europe? There is not much difference in pay, at FZ upgrade is possible within 2-3 years, which means saving more in the short-term (less that 5 years) and get PIC experience to get a better salary in EU afterwards. BUT, what about the experience? I don’t mind flying narrow body that much, it might be more fun and more time at home, but I do care about the experience talking about routes and operation! And of course is nice to get to know places around the world.
I’m considering all this because it might be a good time to get in since they are doing some heavy recruitment, maybe chances are better now. But is it worth it just for the routes and operation? Is it sustainable at least for 5 years with wife and kids? Is the experience and routes worth it more than PIC time on a popular type like the 737 to get a job in Europe as a possible exit plan out of the ME? Is it still allowed to opt out of company accommodation?
Thanks for your comments guys. Safe flights everyone.
I recently passed the screening at FZ but to be honest I’m having second thoughts about not considering EK, and since I will be going to the ME, I’m thinking why don’t apply to EK anyway..
I’m very aware of the working conditions you all posted here, however I can’t go anywhere else and I can’t stay home. I might be able to work in EU in the future (I have passport but not EASA license) so I'm planning to be at the ME at least 3-5 years or longer if family is happy and I can keep up with the roster. I think there are not good salaries in EU at least for FO.
So considering this, is it EK that bad comparing it with FZ and not with Europe? There is not much difference in pay, at FZ upgrade is possible within 2-3 years, which means saving more in the short-term (less that 5 years) and get PIC experience to get a better salary in EU afterwards. BUT, what about the experience? I don’t mind flying narrow body that much, it might be more fun and more time at home, but I do care about the experience talking about routes and operation! And of course is nice to get to know places around the world.
I’m considering all this because it might be a good time to get in since they are doing some heavy recruitment, maybe chances are better now. But is it worth it just for the routes and operation? Is it sustainable at least for 5 years with wife and kids? Is the experience and routes worth it more than PIC time on a popular type like the 737 to get a job in Europe as a possible exit plan out of the ME? Is it still allowed to opt out of company accommodation?
Thanks for your comments guys. Safe flights everyone.
short flights long nights
HAMMER
You realise you are bonded in EK for five years as an FO. And then bonded again as a captain? You only plan to stay 3 years? That is going to cost you $$$$
You realise you are bonded in EK for five years as an FO. And then bonded again as a captain? You only plan to stay 3 years? That is going to cost you $$$$
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're thinking of returning to the EU to fly after a stint in the ME, at the very least I would definitely acquire your EASA license before leaving the EU. Trying to complete it with EK rosters and a family will be pretty much impossible and then you're stuck in the ME or resigning to obtain it. Neither scenario is pretty.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South America
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello guys, thank you for answering.
You are right, and this is something I'm actually aware of. It would be a lot easier to get the EASA license before the tour to the ME. Unfortunately, I'm not in EU, I don't have the money to pay for it, and I will never save it where I am. I can barely save enough to go to the screenings after months of work.
The plan is to stay as long as I can to save money, learn and enjoy from the experience there and jump to EU as an exit strategy. It would be better if I can make it to 5 years and get the upgrade on the popular NG. Or, IF I can get into EK, then maybe I could have a better overall professional experience committed to at least 5 years and see what happens from there. Having EU again as back up plan if things doesn't improve.
I really get you guys, but staying at home is just not an option. If I had a stable job in US or EU, I would never think about leaving. Over there I might have to deal with days off and night shifts, but where I am, family and income are in danger. Because of situations like mine, these airlines just keep getting pilots. 
How´s that?
I have no idea how you guys operate there. How it affect family and personal life. I fly mostly day time flights with good WX and plenty of days off. No stress. Which is actually a little boring sometimes. The reason I post here, is one of the ways to get as much information as I can about both jobs to make the best decision I can.
So, since I have to go there anyway, what works best considering operational experience and keeping family happy?
You are right, and this is something I'm actually aware of. It would be a lot easier to get the EASA license before the tour to the ME. Unfortunately, I'm not in EU, I don't have the money to pay for it, and I will never save it where I am. I can barely save enough to go to the screenings after months of work.
You realise you are bonded in EK for five years as an FO. And then bonded again as a captain? You only plan to stay 3 years? That is going to cost you $$$$
You have to be desperate to apply for a job at Emirates. Are you kidding me? Wake up man.
You will get hired at EK. Don’t worry.
Using PPrune to formulate your decision ? You failed already!
So, since I have to go there anyway, what works best considering operational experience and keeping family happy?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Up North….
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hammer, this is PPRUNE and as such, it is generally somewhere to come when your not happy about something and you want to vent. I don't think I know of a single post where someone has just come to say "WoW this is so great'.
There are pros and cons to every airline you look at joining. The longer you are anywhere the more the cons weigh on your shoulders because when you joined you accepted the baseline conditions as Ok and acceptable for you. Generally, it should be better than where you were since by definition the cons where you are are outweighing the pros or you wouldn't leave.
EK is no different, there are pros and cons. The longer you remain the more candid your thoughts become. In any company, this will happen, even with no changes made to the contract, little niggles thought of as nothing to start become sores after a few years. It is like a marriage, it's wonderful to start with but few are happy after many years.
Unfortunately, there are changes to the contract made regularly and your original baseline is eroded. One day you wake up in the morning and want to bite your arm off as you open your eyes.
Everyone has different reasons and needs. If it is better today and safer for you and your family, then come. Come with your eyes open though and not because you have been swayed by the shiny pictures in the glossy magazines.
There are pros and cons to every airline you look at joining. The longer you are anywhere the more the cons weigh on your shoulders because when you joined you accepted the baseline conditions as Ok and acceptable for you. Generally, it should be better than where you were since by definition the cons where you are are outweighing the pros or you wouldn't leave.
EK is no different, there are pros and cons. The longer you remain the more candid your thoughts become. In any company, this will happen, even with no changes made to the contract, little niggles thought of as nothing to start become sores after a few years. It is like a marriage, it's wonderful to start with but few are happy after many years.
Unfortunately, there are changes to the contract made regularly and your original baseline is eroded. One day you wake up in the morning and want to bite your arm off as you open your eyes.
Everyone has different reasons and needs. If it is better today and safer for you and your family, then come. Come with your eyes open though and not because you have been swayed by the shiny pictures in the glossy magazines.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: DESDI and hold
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm.....Brazilian guy trying to improve his chances for bidding GIG?!
Oh, ummmm...by the way, JFK is also very, very dangerous...stay away, stay away.
I hear HYD is nice though.
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: dubai
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi prospect joiners.
A few new confirmed demotions and failed upgrades have recently reached my ears.
I regrettably do not have access to data, but the numbers some of the posters here are publishing are either old or a lie. Full badges of 6 captain upgrades have failed. To make that a 90% pass rate, EK would have to pass 67 guys in a row without a fail. And as it stands now, 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 6 is pretty much the usual fail rate.
The bar to access the course has also been raised, so that the simulators 2 years in advance of the upgrade are already a pre-command assesment. Some guys are waiting their turn for years now, with no reply to their queries from management.
Then demotions. On Training grounds. Or on the line. In the first or second or third PPC. Not one or two guys.
I flew this year with a handful of demoted fellows.
Looking at the seniority list will problably not help. A good number leave. Can't blame them.
What is the final count then? Add the three:
1 Guys waiting their chance forever
2 Guys Failed
3 Guys demoted soon after
A company has to defend its business, and only put in the left seat a capable individual. Noted. But something is obviously missing. Is it recruiting? Is it training? Is it motivation? Is it fear? Is it too difficult? (answer to the last is NO)
The least experienced badges recruited are soon due to upgrade. We are talking ATPL + 4 EK Years. Then upgrade in a biiiig jet with a large Sheikh painted on it that goes literally everywhere. What then? New sessions and courses have been implemented already. Nil fix.
As someone already said, this company is Hire and Fire. You are recruited whatever your standards, then through the grinder, if you pass, fine, if not, disposed of. Initial, PPC, or Upgrade. You wanna leave? I sure hope you are not bonded right now.
Aiming to be fair, most trainers try to do just that, train. So if the trainers are not purposely failing trainees, does it mean we are just not good enough? How is that so? I do not see anyone either in training or fleet trying to reverse the situation. They have failed.
But ultimately it is us that take the strain.
A few new confirmed demotions and failed upgrades have recently reached my ears.
I regrettably do not have access to data, but the numbers some of the posters here are publishing are either old or a lie. Full badges of 6 captain upgrades have failed. To make that a 90% pass rate, EK would have to pass 67 guys in a row without a fail. And as it stands now, 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 6 is pretty much the usual fail rate.
The bar to access the course has also been raised, so that the simulators 2 years in advance of the upgrade are already a pre-command assesment. Some guys are waiting their turn for years now, with no reply to their queries from management.
Then demotions. On Training grounds. Or on the line. In the first or second or third PPC. Not one or two guys.
I flew this year with a handful of demoted fellows.
Looking at the seniority list will problably not help. A good number leave. Can't blame them.
What is the final count then? Add the three:
1 Guys waiting their chance forever
2 Guys Failed
3 Guys demoted soon after
A company has to defend its business, and only put in the left seat a capable individual. Noted. But something is obviously missing. Is it recruiting? Is it training? Is it motivation? Is it fear? Is it too difficult? (answer to the last is NO)
The least experienced badges recruited are soon due to upgrade. We are talking ATPL + 4 EK Years. Then upgrade in a biiiig jet with a large Sheikh painted on it that goes literally everywhere. What then? New sessions and courses have been implemented already. Nil fix.
As someone already said, this company is Hire and Fire. You are recruited whatever your standards, then through the grinder, if you pass, fine, if not, disposed of. Initial, PPC, or Upgrade. You wanna leave? I sure hope you are not bonded right now.
Aiming to be fair, most trainers try to do just that, train. So if the trainers are not purposely failing trainees, does it mean we are just not good enough? How is that so? I do not see anyone either in training or fleet trying to reverse the situation. They have failed.
But ultimately it is us that take the strain.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: guess where
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desert witch
I do not have the numbers about demotions and/or failures. There is just a few things, I would like to shed another light on. Trainer don't fail anyone. It's examiners that fail. Trainers conduct a training session and if unable to train to a minimum required standard they have to give a developing grade in order to allow training management to assign additional training. If too many additional trainings are required, fleet gets involved to decide if training should be continued or not. It's not even Training Management to do this.
If a developing grade is awarded it could be the trainers inability to train properly or, from what I have experienced more likely, the "material" to work with is not trainable in the time available.
Certainly some of the newer joiners are not of the same average standard as about 10+ years ago. We still get excellent pilots which never have a problem. But we get more than before of the other type as well. Career prospects, roster issues, leave issues... you name it, makes it more difficult to attract the required quality. Don't blame the trainers, nor the examiners if they don't lower the bar.
Unfortunately not all pilots are quite as good as they think they are.
Should the company provide more time to train? Yes absolutely (and thinking back to my upgrade preparation, or lack of, they do). But this is not the trainer's nor Training Management's decision. That goes to OPS Management and is all about money. How much can safety cost....
Not trying to defend anyone's position, just a few thoughts from the inside.
I do not have the numbers about demotions and/or failures. There is just a few things, I would like to shed another light on. Trainer don't fail anyone. It's examiners that fail. Trainers conduct a training session and if unable to train to a minimum required standard they have to give a developing grade in order to allow training management to assign additional training. If too many additional trainings are required, fleet gets involved to decide if training should be continued or not. It's not even Training Management to do this.
If a developing grade is awarded it could be the trainers inability to train properly or, from what I have experienced more likely, the "material" to work with is not trainable in the time available.
Certainly some of the newer joiners are not of the same average standard as about 10+ years ago. We still get excellent pilots which never have a problem. But we get more than before of the other type as well. Career prospects, roster issues, leave issues... you name it, makes it more difficult to attract the required quality. Don't blame the trainers, nor the examiners if they don't lower the bar.
Unfortunately not all pilots are quite as good as they think they are.
Should the company provide more time to train? Yes absolutely (and thinking back to my upgrade preparation, or lack of, they do). But this is not the trainer's nor Training Management's decision. That goes to OPS Management and is all about money. How much can safety cost....
Not trying to defend anyone's position, just a few thoughts from the inside.