EK207 Jfk
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The visual cues are available on another chart - Parkway Visual 13L/R LIDO 7-350 also highlights the track miles CRI to the different thresholds. No stopping anyone from referring to various sources for info. Yes it's extra work for the pilot. Just saying.
You can still do "pilot type sh*t" ...if you want.
You can still do "pilot type sh*t" ...if you want.
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The visual cues are available on another chart - Parkway Visual 13L/R LIDO 7-350 also highlights the track miles CRI to the different thresholds. No stopping anyone from referring to various sources for info. Yes it's extra work for the pilot. Just saying.
You can still do "pilot type sh*t" ...if you want.
You can still do "pilot type sh*t" ...if you want.
That's some real pilot's sh***!
MS
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Where, in all the pages of words and hours of online videos about how to fly this approach, does EK reference the Parkway Visual chart? If you messed up while looking at a chart that the company doesn't "approve" (for a visual approach! The horror!) you really would be in deep trouble.
Anyway, the problem is solved. We now have not one but two online courses to complete (within the next three days, so God help anybody on holiday) telling us how to do the approach. That will fix it!
Anyway, the problem is solved. We now have not one but two online courses to complete (within the next three days, so God help anybody on holiday) telling us how to do the approach. That will fix it!
Last edited by BigGeordie; 17th Dec 2017 at 14:44.
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The fact of the matter is that when “pilots were pilots” and did a whole lot of “pilot sh!t”, incidents and accidents still happened (arguably more so). Neither visually flying every approach, nor blindly following the magenta are the solution. There is a lot of great aids available In modern airliners; a smart pilot will understand and utilise all the techniques and procedures available to him to plan and execute a safe and efficient approach.
Similarly, any professional aviator knows that behind every bad event are a series of contributory and causal factors... it’s never as simple as blame the crew, the management, ATC, the met...(Swiss cheese model blah blah).
There is no doubt that EK have a potentially serious problem in how they select, train and manage their pilots. I’m not smart enough to know the exact solution to turn such a huge juggernaut around, but I do know that with the right people in key leadership positions it can be done. It wasn’t that long ago that QR was regarded a basket case... but a few years later they arguably have the best management and training of their pilots in the region (just a shame Doha is such a dump).
Just my $0.02
Similarly, any professional aviator knows that behind every bad event are a series of contributory and causal factors... it’s never as simple as blame the crew, the management, ATC, the met...(Swiss cheese model blah blah).
There is no doubt that EK have a potentially serious problem in how they select, train and manage their pilots. I’m not smart enough to know the exact solution to turn such a huge juggernaut around, but I do know that with the right people in key leadership positions it can be done. It wasn’t that long ago that QR was regarded a basket case... but a few years later they arguably have the best management and training of their pilots in the region (just a shame Doha is such a dump).
Just my $0.02
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Utilize whatever resources you can to get the job done. CRI DME, look outside, charts of visual cues, video on technique from training, your own experience, augment crew’s experience, FMS progress page, SND fix, PAPI, VDEV.... we owe it to ourselves. This problem ain’t going away unless both the company and pilots do some soul searching ... recognizing there are areas to improve.. have we done our best.. in providing the training, the resources, amending the fatiguing schedules, promoting a just culture. Recognizing human factors which cause these mistakes/gotchas and how to trap them ...
When we mess up..we mess up doesn’t matter it’s one chart/two charts this technique or that technique. I’m sure we (both pilots and company) want to learn how to avoid messing up..ultimately.
When we mess up..we mess up doesn’t matter it’s one chart/two charts this technique or that technique. I’m sure we (both pilots and company) want to learn how to avoid messing up..ultimately.
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.... and let's not forget to tell our passengers why two highly trained pilots needed two calls from the controllers and an automatic warning not to drive their highly sophisticated flying marvel into the ground with 10 miles visibility and the cloud ceiling at 35 hundred feet!
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
.... and let's not forget to tell our passengers why two highly trained pilots needed two calls from the controllers and an automatic warning not to drive their highly sophisticated flying marvel into the ground with 10 miles visibility and the cloud ceiling at 35 hundred feet!
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
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.... and let's not forget to tell our passengers why two highly trained pilots needed two calls from the controllers and an automatic warning not to drive their highly sophisticated flying marvel into the ground with 10 miles visibility and the cloud ceiling at 35 hundred feet!
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
Feel free to call me whatever comes to your mind, but i really have a hard time to explain this to my non aviation indoctrinated friends and family. Unfortunately even more so when they ask me what the company is doing to avoid such incidents in the future. They wouldn't be able to believe .....
It's a very, very sad state we are in.
Paaalease... it’s a great concern. But let’s not forget the job is harder than ever with poorly designed systems, less crew, less training and more frequent fatigue...
It remains to be seen whether the GPWS or ATC prompts the crew to recover. It’s an immensely and responsible difficult job to consistently nail down
Poor buggers
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Mr Drop Pilot.If "too low terrain" is not a warning of imminent death then what would you call it? "HAVE A NICE DAY"?? Semantics is very silly when you are getting too close to the ground and are not about to arrive at a runway.......
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Mr Pirate Pete
My wish for you is that when you next travel as a passenger your flight crew know the difference between a GPWS caution and a warning, know what to do in the event of either, and do what is required promptly without having a group discussion.
What you call "semantics" professionals would call "procedures".
My wish for you is that when you next travel as a passenger your flight crew know the difference between a GPWS caution and a warning, know what to do in the event of either, and do what is required promptly without having a group discussion.
What you call "semantics" professionals would call "procedures".
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Dogma
Don't even try to insinuate for one second that i want to simply blame the crew. I know by own experience that there is more company trash to it than we can even describe on here. But for just one second put yourself in the position of a simple appendicitis patient wheeled into an emergency room. You would at the very least expect the night shift surgeon to be able to execute this since some 50 years basic procedure without any notable side effects. Right? Or you'd sue him big time! You would not take any excuse like long working hours, stupid management, inadequate training as relevant for your law suit -> and rightfully so. The hospital, health care system and the politicians should look after adequate training, service and qualification, after all you are paying for that crap, aren't you?
Now compare this with this quite routine approach into JFK by a self proclaimed legacy carrier and its equally proud pilots.
Very little room for excuses, unfortunately.
I expect the same professionalism and intolerance to the level of failure of the health care system, legal system and reigning political system, wherever i am, if they expect the same level of respect and by that renumeration as they allow me.
But by that, i have to deliver on my own job. If we can no longer deliver, we have to stand up and say so immediately, irrespective of the consequences.
On our level of responsibility, there is little room for excuses or blaming others in the aftermath.
I know a lot companies in this region play with that and shove down on us their inadequacy, accompanied with the threat and fear factor, simply because they can and it suits their profits.
It's unfortunately up to us to resist, and i admit it's difficult. But we have to.
Paaalease... it’s a great concern. But let’s not forget the job is harder than ever with poorly designed systems, less crew, less training and more frequent fatigue...
Now compare this with this quite routine approach into JFK by a self proclaimed legacy carrier and its equally proud pilots.
Very little room for excuses, unfortunately.
I expect the same professionalism and intolerance to the level of failure of the health care system, legal system and reigning political system, wherever i am, if they expect the same level of respect and by that renumeration as they allow me.
But by that, i have to deliver on my own job. If we can no longer deliver, we have to stand up and say so immediately, irrespective of the consequences.
On our level of responsibility, there is little room for excuses or blaming others in the aftermath.
I know a lot companies in this region play with that and shove down on us their inadequacy, accompanied with the threat and fear factor, simply because they can and it suits their profits.
It's unfortunately up to us to resist, and i admit it's difficult. But we have to.
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I would love to be able to agree with what you just wrote Glofish but there is one big difference between the 2 professions you describe.
When I started flying many, many years ago, a wide body jet Captain held the same status as a Judge, a Consultant Surgeon etc and was treated as such.
Nowadays, with HR rather than pilots running airlines it is all about cost, and the financial and social status of those joining the wide body fleet now is deemed by many to be that of a blue collar worker, marginally better than a bus driver. Hardly surprising, therefore, that the attitude taken into the flight deck is, in most cases, but not all, consistent with the way people are treated.
Whenever there is an incident or an accident our elders and betters jump up and down and remind us of our very serious responsibilities and obligations. But when it's time for a pay rise or recruitment drive to try to mitigate the brutal and incessant fatigue, then we are just button pushers who live the high life. A half decent lawyer, I am told, would have little difficulty in building a sound corporate manslaughter case if the situation ever arose.
The people in red braces who run this industry need to first take a long hard look at themselves and start treating professionals with the respect and $ that they deserve before they start preaching about our responsibilities.
When I started flying many, many years ago, a wide body jet Captain held the same status as a Judge, a Consultant Surgeon etc and was treated as such.
Nowadays, with HR rather than pilots running airlines it is all about cost, and the financial and social status of those joining the wide body fleet now is deemed by many to be that of a blue collar worker, marginally better than a bus driver. Hardly surprising, therefore, that the attitude taken into the flight deck is, in most cases, but not all, consistent with the way people are treated.
Whenever there is an incident or an accident our elders and betters jump up and down and remind us of our very serious responsibilities and obligations. But when it's time for a pay rise or recruitment drive to try to mitigate the brutal and incessant fatigue, then we are just button pushers who live the high life. A half decent lawyer, I am told, would have little difficulty in building a sound corporate manslaughter case if the situation ever arose.
The people in red braces who run this industry need to first take a long hard look at themselves and start treating professionals with the respect and $ that they deserve before they start preaching about our responsibilities.
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Originally Posted by Dropp
"too low terrain" is not a warning
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W.K This is my point.Drop would rather debate the meaning of the aural message, however the important issue is as you point out....this is not a good position to be in is it when (some level of alert/caution/warning) is busy telling you that you are in danger of hitting the ground but are not yet at an airport......
Let's get something straight, "TOO LOW TERRAIN" is GPWS CAUTION. It's not a warning. The manoeuvre is to simply correct the flightpath or deviation, and, as those who fly will know, under certain conditions can be ignored, unlike a GPWS WARNING.
Your reply 256 piratepete was that of an arrogant w@nker who doesn't understand the difference. Are you a journalist? You're sensationalist and incorrect reply would indicate that you have the ability to be, and Dropp correctly put you in your place afterwards.
Back to topic........
Your reply 256 piratepete was that of an arrogant w@nker who doesn't understand the difference. Are you a journalist? You're sensationalist and incorrect reply would indicate that you have the ability to be, and Dropp correctly put you in your place afterwards.
Back to topic........
Pretty key difference being a go round may be the fix vs an all out pull up/toga party.
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Mr Pirate Pete
My wish for you is that when you next travel as a passenger your flight crew know the difference between a GPWS caution and a warning, know what to do in the event of either, and do what is required promptly without having a group discussion.
What you call "semantics" professionals would call "procedures".
My wish for you is that when you next travel as a passenger your flight crew know the difference between a GPWS caution and a warning, know what to do in the event of either, and do what is required promptly without having a group discussion.
What you call "semantics" professionals would call "procedures".
The guys flew into JFK at nighttime. There is no difference in actions at nighttime between the caution and the warning. The caution can only be ‘corrected’ in daytime VMC. Any other conditions warrant a terrain escape manoeuvre at the moment you get the caution...
MR8
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Let's get something straight, "TOO LOW TERRAIN" is GPWS CAUTION. It's not a warning. The manoeuvre is to simply correct the flightpath or deviation, and, as those who fly will know, under certain conditions can be ignored, unlike a GPWS WARNING.
Your reply 256 piratepete was that of an arrogant w@nker who doesn't understand the difference. Are you a journalist? You're sensationalist and incorrect reply would indicate that you have the ability to be, and Dropp correctly put you in your place afterwards.
Back to topic........
Your reply 256 piratepete was that of an arrogant w@nker who doesn't understand the difference. Are you a journalist? You're sensationalist and incorrect reply would indicate that you have the ability to be, and Dropp correctly put you in your place afterwards.
Back to topic........
MR8
MR8.
Do you understand the meaning of 'Under certain conditions.'?
Correct the flightpath or configuration means just that. If at night, then a Missed Approach it is. And it still isn't a Warning. Bud.
Do you understand the meaning of 'Under certain conditions.'?
Correct the flightpath or configuration means just that. If at night, then a Missed Approach it is. And it still isn't a Warning. Bud.