EK207 Jfk
Join Date: Sep 2015
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the FCI is now the response to the recent events!
The application of the intercept from above - even it is a approved SOP - is not allowed because it is unsafe to descend into an certified and approved ILS GS signal - which has been certified to the ICAO specs - and serving as the safety net for such a procedure.
on the other hand it is safe to fly an aircraft below the charted minimum - using the Autopilot outside of its limitations (on an APPR other than ILS below MDA or charted Miniums in a selected DES mode) ignoring an amber PFD MSG " DISENGAGE AUTOPILOT FOR LANDING" - without any safety nets.
reason is because of signal fluctuations, inside the granted signal quality of the beam.
this is a very amusing approach to the problem
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Just last week at LGA
“Traffic on crossing runway on short final and landing traffic has yet to clear be ready Delta”.....
Since I’m not a dumb ass and have common sense I stood the throttles up and when ATC cleared us for takeoff we were rolling in no time.
Has common sense left the cockpit or do we need everything spelled out for us?
I have always loved the CRI approach since it gives us a chance to do something different. The River Visual into DCA is another fun one but some of the posters on this forum should stay away from those approaches. Please!
“Traffic on crossing runway on short final and landing traffic has yet to clear be ready Delta”.....
Since I’m not a dumb ass and have common sense I stood the throttles up and when ATC cleared us for takeoff we were rolling in no time.
Has common sense left the cockpit or do we need everything spelled out for us?
I have always loved the CRI approach since it gives us a chance to do something different. The River Visual into DCA is another fun one but some of the posters on this forum should stay away from those approaches. Please!
Looks like you and Airbubba gonna be busy dancing on your Delta buddies graves also, almost landed on an occupied taxiway.
But you said it better than me : “some of the posters on this forum should stay away from those approaches.“
As against a straigh in ILS at Home base.
Karma buddy, told ya.
Last edited by fliion; 14th Dec 2017 at 19:32.
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
The issue in Moscow could never have occurred if 1000’ AAL was set, and JFK wouldn’t have happened if the crew had a clue as to their distance to fly from touchdown.
This is a bandaid applied to a knee that has jerked into an obstruction, and it won’t solve the ROOT cause.
Two things will now happen.
1. Forget flying CDAs, it’s dive and drive, the risks associated with being high outweigh the benefits to crews of flying efficiently.
2. There will now be more events related to high RODs as crews who get hung out to dry by ATC try to get to platform ALT, which despite the missive of a decision to GA from a higher ALT being safer neglects to consider the greater energy and reduced margin to make that decision as some crews will invariably be pushed further into a corner.
Just my immediate thoughts whilst enjoying a rare few days off.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
I don't think the VASI was a player in this JFK incident, however.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Olster, that's right. Blame the evil trainers and checkers for 'promulgating' this. While I acknowledge there are many other factors, it's a cheap shot to blame the trainers etc.
Woah, sluggums, you misinterpret my post. I was an SFI for 3 years until I had enough. The vast majority of trainers are good guys with the best of intentions including some very good friends of mine. However, there is an element of over complication where the basics get ignored. It is interesting that you are defensive about the training dept when the other stuff, warning letters etc are an integral part of the overall morale or lack of it. The joys of pprune where out of context is the norm. And just where does the responsibility for the recent spate of near misses lie?
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Looking at the event I think the looking out part was forgotten.
Every pilot knows that when a runway moves up in yr windscreen you're actually descending too fast if yr on profile, and that its time to check what you missed. Both pilots ofcourse.
Imho JFK ATC was on the ball. Yes they can be harse, but this time they were the saving guardians, good stuff.
Every pilot knows that when a runway moves up in yr windscreen you're actually descending too fast if yr on profile, and that its time to check what you missed. Both pilots ofcourse.
Imho JFK ATC was on the ball. Yes they can be harse, but this time they were the saving guardians, good stuff.
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Totally agree fliion. This new procedure is a mess. turning one problem into another
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Just my 2c......
1. ATC did not cause this. I don't think anyone really said that.
2. In any incident investigation, it is appropriate to look at ATC actions.
3. It is possible that they were using the canarsie when an easier and better approach was available. It is not unreasonable to ask ATC to look at this aspect.
4. US/JFK are seriously unfriendly at times. Their clipped, harsh and ambiguous instructions are a problem. Maybe it works for them and local pilots. TBH, I don't have a problem with it.....however, I feel very uncomfortable having to ask for clarification on something.....often the response leaves me feeling stupid and red-faced. That lies at their feet and doesn't foster a comfortable and safe working environment. Give me India ATC anyday......at least they are friendly, even if I ask them to repeat 10 times.
5. In their defense, they don't go running to the authorities at the drop of a hat(unlike the Aussies).
6. Those that think the pilots should simply have looked out are over-simplifying. This could easily have happened to me. I know it would not have happened to many of the pilots here because you guys never screw up.
7. If they were not looking in the right place, there is a reason for that. Probably trying to make sure the fmc & fcu setting were correct, as that is what is monitored and will land you in doo doo, not what you are looking at.
8. Note that the response from the company so far has been to emphasize SOP and that autoflight settings are being monitored. Further emphasis on consequences for SOP deviance, in the interest of flight safety and brand reputation. Make of this what you will.....I know what my take away is(hint : it's not that I can expect further training.......)
1. ATC did not cause this. I don't think anyone really said that.
2. In any incident investigation, it is appropriate to look at ATC actions.
3. It is possible that they were using the canarsie when an easier and better approach was available. It is not unreasonable to ask ATC to look at this aspect.
4. US/JFK are seriously unfriendly at times. Their clipped, harsh and ambiguous instructions are a problem. Maybe it works for them and local pilots. TBH, I don't have a problem with it.....however, I feel very uncomfortable having to ask for clarification on something.....often the response leaves me feeling stupid and red-faced. That lies at their feet and doesn't foster a comfortable and safe working environment. Give me India ATC anyday......at least they are friendly, even if I ask them to repeat 10 times.
5. In their defense, they don't go running to the authorities at the drop of a hat(unlike the Aussies).
6. Those that think the pilots should simply have looked out are over-simplifying. This could easily have happened to me. I know it would not have happened to many of the pilots here because you guys never screw up.
7. If they were not looking in the right place, there is a reason for that. Probably trying to make sure the fmc & fcu setting were correct, as that is what is monitored and will land you in doo doo, not what you are looking at.
8. Note that the response from the company so far has been to emphasize SOP and that autoflight settings are being monitored. Further emphasis on consequences for SOP deviance, in the interest of flight safety and brand reputation. Make of this what you will.....I know what my take away is(hint : it's not that I can expect further training.......)
Join Date: Jul 2009
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SLF here
EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.
I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207
The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.
I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.
I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207
The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
Join Date: May 2005
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Don’t worry, this is why Aviation is safe, mistakes get discussed!
Crew cocked up, realized late, went round. Still had another slice of cheese (hopefully cheddar) that wasn’t used the ground proximity warning system. Pilots on pprune suffer from the god complex and love to explain why it wouldn’t have happened to them.
Crew cocked up, realized late, went round. Still had another slice of cheese (hopefully cheddar) that wasn’t used the ground proximity warning system. Pilots on pprune suffer from the god complex and love to explain why it wouldn’t have happened to them.
SLF here
EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.
I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207 The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.
I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
EK poor training, JFK crappy airport, JFK ATC poor.....nutshell disaster waiting to happen as per comments.
I fly into JFK once a month if not more. All of them on EK & several flights on EK 207
The holes in my swiss cheese seem all lined up.I am scared stiff after reading comments of the professionals here......
Exactly what schnowser said. Rantings on an anonymous forum, particularly when some seem to have an agender can't be relied on.
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BTW if some one from EK is reading this please do upgrade me as I am getting to old to sit 14 hours with my Knees in my chin & my pocket has not gotten any deeper.......
Last edited by Wannabe Flyer; 15th Dec 2017 at 09:27.
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So, an EK 380 with four pilots in the cockpit nearly crashes short of runway 13L in JFK.
Hardly anyone are pointing their fingers at the pilots, but blame: ATC, trainers, the procedure, the airport, USA, training, the FMC, fatigue.
The pilots scrxxed up and ATC had to tell four pilots that they were very low.
Maybe they guys were not up to the job? Maybe the guys in Moscow were not up to the job? Maybe the EK 777 that crashed had a captain who should not have been in the cockpit in the first place?
I was at the holding in DUS when EK landed a 380. Eeeh, EK xxx, runway vacated? EK xxx, you are supposed to call ground by yourself, but contact them on 121.xxx. So, after flying for 6-7 hours, none of the pilots had bothered to read up on the airport procedures.
Just rantings on an anonumus forum, nothing wrong here. Move along and have a nice flight.
Hardly anyone are pointing their fingers at the pilots, but blame: ATC, trainers, the procedure, the airport, USA, training, the FMC, fatigue.
The pilots scrxxed up and ATC had to tell four pilots that they were very low.
Maybe they guys were not up to the job? Maybe the guys in Moscow were not up to the job? Maybe the EK 777 that crashed had a captain who should not have been in the cockpit in the first place?
I was at the holding in DUS when EK landed a 380. Eeeh, EK xxx, runway vacated? EK xxx, you are supposed to call ground by yourself, but contact them on 121.xxx. So, after flying for 6-7 hours, none of the pilots had bothered to read up on the airport procedures.
Just rantings on an anonumus forum, nothing wrong here. Move along and have a nice flight.
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Nobody goes to work thinking, “Today I will screw up and see how close to the ground I can get”. Yes, the pilots messed up in the above incidents and got a perfectly serviceable aeroplane too close to the ground. In order to stop it happening again we need to go back and find out why they messed up. Fatigue, training, ATC, experience- any or all of those things could be factors. I hope accident and incident investigation has progressed from the days when it could all be put down to ‘Pilot Error, case closed’.
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