EK207 Jfk
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Longtimelurker
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[QUOTE=Meester proach;9989232]In this day and age the fact an offset VOR to circling minima is seen as acceptable at a major airport is the first problem. It’s the first hole in the cheese.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “[/QUOTE
Well you guys could move all your flights to Newark but then again ATC may ask you to fly an ILS to 04R circle to runway 29 . That for sure would cause consternation having to set up your own base leg with nothing better than needle ball and airspeed to navigate on to the final for 29.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “[/QUOTE
Well you guys could move all your flights to Newark but then again ATC may ask you to fly an ILS to 04R circle to runway 29 . That for sure would cause consternation having to set up your own base leg with nothing better than needle ball and airspeed to navigate on to the final for 29.
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Disclaimer: I don't have the plate in front of me, going by memory.
Just about all non precision approaches that are flown today are CDA, with no level off segments.....
This is one is different. If you fly it to minimums, you have to level off once you reach the MDA, and look for the strobes, make the turn and then continue on the vasis/papis, once you have them in sight.
One can figure out that its not a 3 degree slope from the MDA to the threshold by looking at the the ground distance to cover the 800 feet of height, but is there a warning anywhere on the plate that it's not a real CDA approach beyond the MDA ?
Just about all non precision approaches that are flown today are CDA, with no level off segments.....
This is one is different. If you fly it to minimums, you have to level off once you reach the MDA, and look for the strobes, make the turn and then continue on the vasis/papis, once you have them in sight.
One can figure out that its not a 3 degree slope from the MDA to the threshold by looking at the the ground distance to cover the 800 feet of height, but is there a warning anywhere on the plate that it's not a real CDA approach beyond the MDA ?
In this day and age the fact an offset VOR to circling minima is seen as acceptable at a major airport is the first problem. It’s the first hole in the cheese.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
GF
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In this day and age the fact an offset VOR to circling minima is seen as acceptable at a major airport is the first problem. It’s the first hole in the cheese.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
4runner.
There are many American pilots at EK. All the ones I know are great people and good operators. The quote Bubba is using refers to some of the DEC applications and joiners from 13yrs ago. The quote has been used out of context.
There are many American pilots at EK. All the ones I know are great people and good operators. The quote Bubba is using refers to some of the DEC applications and joiners from 13yrs ago. The quote has been used out of context.
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Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
Last edited by FlyingUpsideDown; 14th Dec 2017 at 06:17. Reason: spelling
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Something interesting and worth noting is that Runway 13L used to have a 2 Bar VASI on the left hand side. The B777 FCTM prohibits the use of the 2 Bar VASI. I see that they've upgraded to the PAPI however, recently I flew a simulator with JFK visuals which had the old 2 Bar VASI. I wonder if the EK sims have been updated? Also is a 2 Bar VASI allowed in the A380?
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There’s this little problem of nearby airports that have equally heavy traffic volume—KLGA, KEWR, KHPN, KTEB, KFRG. It’s do this or go elsewhere when there’s a strong SE thru S wind. Or, be able to fly by looking out the window, perhaps aided by a HUD.
They don't use it due to airspace blogsy.
Totally agree fliion. This new procedure is a mess. turning one problem into another.
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In this day and age the fact an offset VOR to circling minima is seen as acceptable at a major airport is the first problem. It’s the first hole in the cheese.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
I know it may be hard to imagine but maybe, just maybe he prevented a CFIT event.
Last edited by HM79; 14th Dec 2017 at 12:53. Reason: Grammatical correction
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"The FCTM prohibits?"
Yeah it does. Handy little document many of you may might want to have a little look into some time.
It will tell you that if a B777 follows the guidance from a 2 bar VASIS the main gear will cross the threshold at 13'. It's those little tidbits that keep me coming back.
Yeah it does. Handy little document many of you may might want to have a little look into some time.
It will tell you that if a B777 follows the guidance from a 2 bar VASIS the main gear will cross the threshold at 13'. It's those little tidbits that keep me coming back.
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Straight from the USDOT FAA ATO Policy Document
Chapter 2 General Control
2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT
Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.
NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.
2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.
3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.
a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:
PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),
CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.
THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),
or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),
or the outer marker,
or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),
and, if known, issue
THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).
Seems pretty close to by the book
Chapter 2 General Control
2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT
Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.
NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.
2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.
3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.
a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:
PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),
CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.
THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),
or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),
or the outer marker,
or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),
and, if known, issue
THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).
Seems pretty close to by the book
Straight from the USDOT FAA ATO Policy Document
Chapter 2 General Control
2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT
Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.
NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.
2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.
3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.
a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:
PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),
CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.
THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),
or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),
or the outer marker,
or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),
and, if known, issue
THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).
Seems pretty close to by the book
Chapter 2 General Control
2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT
Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.
NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2, Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft. Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety alert when the situation is recognized.
2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.
3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.
a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/initiate an alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the alert as follows:
PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),
CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.
THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR AREA IS (altitude),
or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix (nonprecision approach),
or the outer marker,
or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),
and, if known, issue
THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).
Seems pretty close to by the book
JFK TOWER may have saved the ship!
It should be obvious to all that whatever the unique style of jfk ATC, how an A380 got into this position is hardly their fault. Over complicated pseudo rocket science procedures promulgated by not as clever as they think trainers / checkers, debilitating rosters, time zone changes, inadequate rest facilities and of course the oft quoted ‘culture’ where normal mistakes result in ludicrous and punitive diciplinary measures. Quite pathetic how it has come to this. My view: the vast majority of ek pilots are a good or above standard, badly let down by the system from all angles. There is patently no honest and just safety culture and the wrong people perpetuate this nonsense. Oh and as an aside, the sister outfit over the road killed 70 plus people but still no explanation.
