EK207 Jfk
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Falcon you're stretching it a bit, My point was not to rely on the FMS where as you suggested the fix page to the threshold was a good idea. How do you know you're at DYHML When it is an FMS waypoint, you xcheck 3 miles using the same FMS?? I referred to the CRI VOR which is on the chart and independent of the FMS. I'm not a fan of the approach but as long as you have a system to check distance v altitude then well done.
Last edited by Praise Jebus; 15th Dec 2017 at 12:23.
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Praise, in a word no, I wouldnt be flying the RNAV approach as its IMHO an EK fudge, itd be the VOR 13L with the visual segment, as I know from experience this works far better and has a lot less in the way of subtle traps.
Last edited by falconeasydriver; 13th Dec 2017 at 10:04.
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I am shocked we are even discussing these things talking about a huge passenger jet.
Like I said mistakes are always around the corner, but it’ s a vor approach with a little bit of A/P off A/THR off FD off please thrown at the end. In good weather at a major western airport.
Like I said mistakes are always around the corner, but it’ s a vor approach with a little bit of A/P off A/THR off FD off please thrown at the end. In good weather at a major western airport.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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DYHML is 3.6 nm to the threshold. At 300:1, and VFR a normal glide slope, you would cross DYHML at 1080’.
Why people descend to 800’, level off, then re-establish the descent in VFR conditions puzzles me. Why make it harder?
Why people descend to 800’, level off, then re-establish the descent in VFR conditions puzzles me. Why make it harder?
New York ATC is some of the best in the world; scapegoating the controllers is definitely misplaced, when its quite evident that the UAE suffers from a significant lack of training and ability to learn from its mistakes. Spoken by someone who has been based in both arenas....
Notice, US pilots aren't flying fatigued anymore and receive non-jeopardy AQP training and are overseen by a governmental body that is able to critique itself and its own rules. EK and FZ will continue to threaten their passengers safety until they learn from their mistakes by developing truthful self-reflection and proper CRM application.
Don't blame New York controllers because you don't know how to fly a visual approach...
Notice, US pilots aren't flying fatigued anymore and receive non-jeopardy AQP training and are overseen by a governmental body that is able to critique itself and its own rules. EK and FZ will continue to threaten their passengers safety until they learn from their mistakes by developing truthful self-reflection and proper CRM application.
Don't blame New York controllers because you don't know how to fly a visual approach...
Join Date: Aug 1998
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Falcon is on the right track in identifying that most of the "procedures" and "techniques" that are sent our way originate from people who are daunted by the task of manipulating an airplane. To them, it is beyond comprehension that any pilot should find it a simple matter of pleasure and pride to be able to confidently direct an airplane towards the threshold during the last two minutes of the flight.
These are the people who produce diagrams that show how to fly a visual circuit, timing the downwind leg past the threshold, correcting for wind of course, so that the pilot does not forget to turn base.
To paraphrase Woody Allen, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach design procedures".
These are the people who produce diagrams that show how to fly a visual circuit, timing the downwind leg past the threshold, correcting for wind of course, so that the pilot does not forget to turn base.
To paraphrase Woody Allen, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach design procedures".
The article appears to be a journalistic view of a particular incident and then associates it with other issues involving a particular operator which are already under investigation.
Did the aircraft crash - no.
Could it have - depends on the chosen viewpoint. Aviation has safety back ups from EGPWS, crew cross checks, MSAW, none of which were discussed from the journalist’s point of view.
Did the aircraft crash - no.
Could it have - depends on the chosen viewpoint. Aviation has safety back ups from EGPWS, crew cross checks, MSAW, none of which were discussed from the journalist’s point of view.
Ehrm, even tower relized they goofed it up....
Maybe tower safed the ship!?
Incident: Emirates A388 at New York on Dec 4th 2017, at about 200 feet in the middle of turn to runway 13L
Maybe tower safed the ship!?
tower to warn EK-207 "you appear to be extremely low on approach"
Aviation has safety back ups from EGPWS, crew cross checks, MSAW, none of which were discussed from the journalist’s point of view.
EGPWS - given circumstances ( configuration/position) - not sure but might not ever come into play.
Crew cross checks - good question - given the approach was "blown" well before the go-around what happened to those.?
MSAW - Sorry not my aisle so can't comment on whether that would or could have produced a "save"...
Fundamentally this was a visual approach ( albeit at night) that appears to have gone badly amiss...? As has been mentioned elsewhere essentially you fly to Dymhl and then follow the lights... No good blaming the journalist for the account and/or assume all would have been eventually saved by the technology, and also imply so it's sort of OK because there wasn't a crash..this was pretty darned serious, but we really need to know human factors were at play here...
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These two 380 incidents smell a lot like ASIANA in SFO.
The aircraft flying the pilots, not the other way around. At least they managed to go around.
Well, the EK 777 didn’t manage to do that either.
How many more like this before various CAAs start to ask questions? A 380 will make a very big hole if it decides to land in a big city.
The aircraft flying the pilots, not the other way around. At least they managed to go around.
Well, the EK 777 didn’t manage to do that either.
How many more like this before various CAAs start to ask questions? A 380 will make a very big hole if it decides to land in a big city.
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Emirates had quite a few 20 year+ captains from major U.S. airlines who could not even pass the initial course or who later made serious operational errors resulting in their downgrade to First Officer. There were also a number who could not pass the upgrade course after being a first officer for 3 years. A large percentage of those were from Delta and Northwest Airlines. The pilots who tended to do well, with a few exceptions, came from USAirways, American, and United. There were, of course, a few good ones from Delta and Northwest but they were a minority.
short flights long nights
Excellent post Dropp...nail head hit on. In my time there, it seemed to me that those that dwelled in cubicles on the third floor did so because they were not that good at sitting in the front of aeroplanes. It was easier for them to hide in cubicles, think up rubbish to force down the throats of the minions, and take delight in berating the said minions, when things went wrong.
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In this day and age the fact an offset VOR to circling minima is seen as acceptable at a major airport is the first problem. It’s the first hole in the cheese.
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
And if you think JFK ATC is some of the best in the world - well only if the criteria is “ rudest “ or “ fastest talking , least intelligible “
Re: the training department. There should be massive warning signals being flagged for a company as large as EK that needs to drop the requirements to a mere 400hrs in the left seat to fill positions in what has been a prestigious role in aviation.
So is this a contributing factor in the EK incident? I'd say definitely. The system is now box ticking, with little or no development/reinforcement of skills. A pilot who has been able to get through the system by playing the right notes, now ends up in the training department playing the same tune, but their overall knowledge and real experience is lacking. Knowledge/skills/HowToGetOutOfaPickle is no longer being passed down because the day of box ticking robots is upon us in the department.
Emirates has a very real and serious problem, and unfortunately those who have caused it, can't see it.
So is this a contributing factor in the EK incident? I'd say definitely. The system is now box ticking, with little or no development/reinforcement of skills. A pilot who has been able to get through the system by playing the right notes, now ends up in the training department playing the same tune, but their overall knowledge and real experience is lacking. Knowledge/skills/HowToGetOutOfaPickle is no longer being passed down because the day of box ticking robots is upon us in the department.
Emirates has a very real and serious problem, and unfortunately those who have caused it, can't see it.
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Bubba, I don’t believe this for a second. It sounds like propoganda of the anti-American variety that I have experienced. I can see a Skipper that had some difficulty adapting to new procedures during training, and certain nationalities using this difficulty as an excuse to Yank bash or further their own agenda. I can see a gulf or Asian carrier smugly try to show how their own procedures are far superior to what delta or northwest used. I can see a technocrat pilot with a sweater tied around his neck explain to his colleagues how inferior a Yank was and congratulate themselves at Costas.