Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK207 Jfk

Old 11th Dec 2017, 08:03
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 2,865
Some inspiring stuff coming out of the chief pilots department with respect these incidents. It would appear they have it well in hand.
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 08:23
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Austria
Posts: 351
Very funny: from our Chief Pilot Muppets, they are all usless like s###.
Talparc is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 08:26
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: MC80 Home One type Star Cruiser
Posts: 146
And the Parkway is a continuous descent and the Canarsie is a step-down to 800'
So in good weather, fly the VOR approach with the profile of the visual.
Approach plate of the parkway in a better scale with more visual cues as well..
EK created FMS coding from the MAP to the threshold after the Canarsie approach. Very useful and you can make it a continuous descent as well, but it may create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until short final. The minima is still 800' and you don't continue unless visual with the runway or lead-in lights. The whole FMS coding to the runway is still a visual segment, which might have been flown on instruments in this case.

Another possibility is that with all the different approaches created by EK, they might have selected the wrong one and/or the wrong minima. The RNAV Visual requires a minima of 300' to be entered in the FMS according the EK procedures. Wrong in my opinion, because this can also create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until 300' on final. It is still a visual approach, but full automation is standard at EK.
If they selected the RNAV Visual instead of the Canarsie approach, selected 300' as minima and thinking that they were flying an instrument approach, then that might explain why they ended up so low.
Bus Driver Man is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 08:41
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Oceanside, CA.
Posts: 155
Possible Solution?

Step 1. Which airlines have the most experience–and least incidents–flying in and out of JFK, or more specifically, flying these nasty arrivals and departures without event?

Step 2. Learn how they do it and try to emulate them.
-

This is not an EK specific problem. I've seen it fd up at two other carriers whose names regularly pop up in the "Best Something" awards and news. Trouble sometimes is simply too many ladder-climbers trying to get their names on the checklist.

Also, flight operations and training management (those who dictate the OM content) are usually the least qualified to dictate procedures since ordinarily, they are the least current on the airplanes. It's always been my opinion that line pilots should be writing the SOP's, and too much chit-chat (including SET, CHECKED, CONFIRMED) is counterproductive or ineffective.
Bonway is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 09:21
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 941
Originally Posted by Bus Driver Man View Post
EK created FMS coding from the MAP to the threshold after the Canarsie approach. Very useful and you can make it a continuous descent as well, but it may create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until short final. The minima is still 800' and you don't continue unless visual with the runway or lead-in lights. The whole FMS coding to the runway is still a visual segment, which might have been flown on instruments in this case.

Another possibility is that with all the different approaches created by EK, they might have selected the wrong one and/or the wrong minima. The RNAV Visual requires a minima of 300' to be entered in the FMS according the EK procedures. Wrong in my opinion, because this can also create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until 300' on final. It is still a visual approach, but full automation is standard at EK.
If they selected the RNAV Visual instead of the Canarsie approach, selected 300' as minima and thinking that they were flying an instrument approach, then that might explain why they ended up so low.
Gees it's almost as if 'minima - FDs off' etc mean that airbus reckon you should turn it off and fly the visual segment visually... Talk about a solution looking for a problem! Well done EK management
maggot is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 11:49
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: xxx
Posts: 63
This is all a total mix up of everything because of this homemade APPR


ATC will never issue that APPR if the WX min is too low


IT IS STILL A VOR with 800Min and a VISUAL SEG FROM DYMHL nothing else
the first guys flew it with FLS - big failure - but induced by SOP as A380 is flying RNAV APPR with FLS - except RNAV RNP, which are not allowed at this time.
What happens if u fly that APPR with FLS - once u come towards the Centerline the imaginary GS will come into capture range as it is lower than u should be the airplane tries to intercept it which leads to being to low at the end.


according to the FCOM
The AP or FD in OP DES or DES mode can be used in approach.


However, its use is only permitted if the AFS CP selected altitude is set to, or above, the higher of:
- MDA/MDH
- 500 ft AGL.


this includes per Airbus also the use of FPA with AP on.
Which means in other words, once u pass the minimum u fly manual to the runway
this limitation is there to avoid CFIT


Again this is and stays a VOR with visual turn segment.


nothing else - our max automation Philosophie leads to false Conclusiones and therefore to such Szenarios
our procedure has created rocket science into this APPR

WB1900 is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 11:58
  #87 (permalink)  
Longtimelurker
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: killington Vt
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post
The sim is perfect to show you the VISUAL clues in minimum wx. To correctly follow the path. It also gives you confidence flying the procedure with an engine failure.
The highway and baseball stadium are the prominent visual clues to identify and to correctly align yourself with the prescribed approach path.
The lead in lights are obviously a help too, but the VOR/GPS approach to rwy13L is flown looking mainly outside, especially once at 800ft. And lower.

But once again, there is absolutely NO valid reason to have to fly such an approach other than politics and unwillingness by the authorities and airlines alike to put Safety first at KJFK.
FYI this approach is in use for two reasons . 1. Noise abatement by keeping the aircraft over the water and highway .Decided years ago after public demonstrations over noise. 2. Allows more airspace for LGA so they can use all runways without traffic conflicts.
BTW that is a race track not a baseball stadium .
filejw is online now  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 11:59
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Moscow Hotel
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Bus Driver Man View Post
EK created FMS coding from the MAP to the threshold after the Canarsie approach. Very useful and you can make it a continuous descent as well, but it may create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until short final.
What about similar approaches elsewhere in the network? 22R at Nice for example?
PorridgeStirrer is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 12:42
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: hang on let me check
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post
The sim is perfect to show you the VISUAL clues in minimum wx. To correctly follow the path. It also gives you confidence flying the procedure with an engine failure.
The highway and baseball stadium are the prominent visual clues to identify and to correctly align yourself with the prescribed approach path.
The lead in lights are obviously a help too, but the VOR/GPS approach to rwy13L is flown looking mainly outside, especially once at 800ft. And lower.

But once again, there is absolutely NO valid reason to have to fly such an approach other than politics and unwillingness by the authorities and airlines alike to put Safety first at KJFK.
It' s the same at Nice and a few other places.
Not mentioning many others where it's not due to noise abatement but for survival purposes close to terrain (turkey has a few of them).
We need to get on with it.

Mistakes are always around the corner no doubt, but are you suggesting that someone who is in command of a 570.000 kg jet (or second in command for that matter) should not be perfectly able to easily hand fly them?
bringbackthe80s is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 13:24
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sunny Bay
Posts: 247
JFK ATC and Canarsie, what a combo.
My Canarsie story....
I was sent to the Holding Point at 13L for departure (Canarsie approaches were in use).
I spent the next 30 minutes watching the air show as the heavies flung themselves at the runway.
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Air France rolled onto finals and touched down - a bit long. The Jetstream lined up and held.
ATC began yelling at Air France to get off the runway - the reason being a Speedbird B747 now rolling onto finals!
As AF finally was clearing, the Jetstream was ordered to “stand up your throttles and release brakes when I tell you” (what kinda BS!). He was then cleared immediate take-off, and started rolling. We watched in amazement - the BA jumbo was now at about 200’.
The Jetstream probably got to 50kts only, then the shout came for him to “abort your takeoff immediately” followed by another order for the BA to GoAround. Which he did, from about 150’ - spectacular! I’m sure the BA crew knew they’d have to throw it away, but were hoping?
So now we had just seen an RTO and a low GA.
With the Jetstream still on the RWY the next up was an American Airlines MD-11 peeling around the Canarsie corner onto finals for 13L.
“American, do you have 13R in sight?”
“Affirmative sir”
“OK you’re cleared land 13R!”
American peels off toward 13R, then quickly realises the staggered runway is closer and he’s too high and too close. He calls Going Around.
Two GAs and an RTO in the space of a minute.
Gobsmacking.
But that’s Kennedy...
Killaroo is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 13:37
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
JFK ATC and Canarsie, what a combo.
My Canarsie story....
I was sent to the Holding Point at 13L for departure (Canarsie approaches were in use).
I spent the next 30 minutes watching the air show as the heavies flung themselves at the runway.
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Air France rolled onto finals and touched down - a bit long. The Jetstream lined up and held.
ATC began yelling at Air France to get off the runway - the reason being a Speedbird B747 now rolling onto finals!
As AF finally was clearing, the Jetstream was ordered to “stand up your throttles and release brakes when I tell you” (what kinda BS!). He was then cleared immediate take-off, and started rolling. We watched in amazement - the BA jumbo was now at about 200’.
The Jetstream probably got to 50kts only, then the shout came for him to “abort your takeoff immediately” followed by another order for the BA to GoAround. Which he did, from about 150’ - spectacular! I’m sure the BA crew knew they’d have to throw it away, but were hoping?
So now we had just seen an RTO and a low GA.
With the Jetstream still on the RWY the next up was an American Airlines MD-11 peeling around the Canarsie corner onto finals for 13L.
“American, do you have 13R in sight?”
“Affirmative sir”
“OK you’re cleared land 13R!”
American peels off toward 13R, then quickly realises the staggered runway is closer and he’s too high and too close. He calls Going Around.
Two GAs and an RTO in the space of a minute.
Gobsmacking.
But that’s Kennedy...
Do Skippy still do JFK? ( I’m assuming Killa that you are at QF...and I only ever saw them landing on 22L due to their western arrival)

HDG SEL and V/S is ALL you need to fly a perfectly good Canarsie onto either runway, why do EK insist on making it so complicated? My argument would be that this is an appropriate level of automation and it works just fine.
falconeasydriver is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 14:43
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,860
Originally Posted by Bus Driver Man View Post
Another possibility is that with all the different approaches created by EK, they might have selected the wrong one and/or the wrong minima. The RNAV Visual requires a minima of 300' to be entered in the FMS according the EK procedures. Wrong in my opinion, because this can also create the false impression that you don't need to be visual until 300' on final. It is still a visual approach, but full automation is standard at EK.

If they selected the RNAV Visual instead of the Canarsie approach, selected 300' as minima and thinking that they were flying an instrument approach, then that might explain why they ended up so low.
Originally Posted by WB1900 View Post
This is all a total mix up of everything because of this homemade APPR


ATC will never issue that APPR if the WX min is too low


IT IS STILL A VOR with 800Min and a VISUAL SEG FROM DYMHL nothing else
the first guys flew it with FLS - big failure - but induced by SOP as A380 is flying RNAV APPR with FLS - except RNAV RNP, which are not allowed at this time.
From the LiveATC.net tapes cited earlier:

EK5KP is cleared for the VOR 13L on approach control. They switch to tower on 119.1 and are cleared to land on 13L.

EK acknowledges 'Cleared to land 13L visual Emirates 5KP'.

Force of habit or were they cleared for the VOR but had the 'homemade visual' in the box?
Airbubba is online now  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 16:30
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
mitigate the risk

EK could mitigate the risk by removing the rotating bid system and apply a true seniority bid system. Reward seniority and allow those who have stuck it out in EK over the years to bid what they want. Why force a 20 year Capt to do night turn to India, they should be able to bid what they can hold. Thus if a Capt want to fly to JFK 3 times a month, let them. If a 20 year Capt want to fly to SYD, then let them. EK then will have subject matter experts. Junior pilots accept this and its carrot to remain in EK as they know some day they will have a roster they can manage at 55 years old, not 5 night turns followed by a ULR to a destination they have never been to more desire to fly.
toilet flush is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 16:57
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,625
JACK

I would like to see a system implemented for now which allows a number of pilots who fly frequently to more challenging destinations, to be the only pilots rostered on those routes.Experience breeds confidence and hopefully not complacency.
Good point because also these Pilots will know what to expect from a fatigue point of view rather than once every now and then, this is what the sleepy folk are beginning to pick up on
Mr Angry from Purley is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 17:24
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 40
This incident is not a surprise. The array of confusing charts versus FMS entries and Approach charts names is staggering and confuses the best of the best. Sadly the company Info on that airport is not really helping. Same applies to NCE and possible other airports with mismatching charts/FMS approaches and ATC procedures.

What is needed to make these curved approaches safe for A380? Bin the complicated technological "solutions" to the "piloting problem". Did everybody know how top fly a visual approach prior to being told it was not the safest option? Well, you know the answer to that...

Let pilots be pilots again and support them in their jobs by people who actually fly the line and understand the needs and risks. In time, they will reward the company with an improved incident record and less unwanted events on the line. My thoughts: Make pilots part of the solution instead of part of the problem. The rewards will not be instant, but they will be big when they finally reach home. Only a sincere attitude in this way will help.
Chinos is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 18:50
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 1,974
It’s not a tough approach. People, or SOP’s, make it a tougher. It’s fun when done correctly.

The next time you’re in the departure lineup for 13R but DYMHL in the fix page and watch the good, and bad, arrvals flown to 13L cross checking with the TCAS. Observe, analyze, then implement on your next arrival. It can be a head shaking experience to observe.

EK 207 was VFR. VMC. Ten miles visibility. They probably could see the entire airport from ASSALT.

Want to make it simple? Cross CRI at 1500’. Start down at 50-100’ FPM. Follow the ground track. At approx 1000’ you’ll pick up the VASI. Transition to a normal visual using the VASI.

The TCAS and visual eye observation will show many US pilots do two continuous descents -
1. CRI to picking up the VASI
2. VASI ‘on glide path’ to impact (landing for some).


Remember crosswinds separate the men from the boys. Have fun.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 20:35
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hafa Land
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Killaroo View Post
JFK ATC and Canarsie, what a combo.
My Canarsie story....
I was sent to the Holding Point at 13L for departure (Canarsie approaches were in use).
I spent the next 30 minutes watching the air show as the heavies flung themselves at the runway.
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Air France rolled onto finals and touched down - a bit long. The Jetstream lined up and held.
ATC began yelling at Air France to get off the runway - the reason being a Speedbird B747 now rolling onto finals!
As AF finally was clearing, the Jetstream was ordered to “stand up your throttles and release brakes when I tell you” (what kinda BS!). He was then cleared immediate take-off, and started rolling. We watched in amazement - the BA jumbo was now at about 200’.
The Jetstream probably got to 50kts only, then the shout came for him to “abort your takeoff immediately” followed by another order for the BA to GoAround. Which he did, from about 150’ - spectacular! I’m sure the BA crew knew they’d have to throw it away, but were hoping?
So now we had just seen an RTO and a low GA.
With the Jetstream still on the RWY the next up was an American Airlines MD-11 peeling around the Canarsie corner onto finals for 13L.
“American, do you have 13R in sight?”
“Affirmative sir”
“OK you’re cleared land 13R!”
American peels off toward 13R, then quickly realises the staggered runway is closer and he’s too high and too close. He calls Going Around.
Two GAs and an RTO in the space of a minute.
Gobsmacking.
But that’s Kennedy...
GOBSMACKING! And also reeks of total rubbish or in New York talk ‘complete bull .’ Line up after landing traffic isn’t a legal clearance in US today and certainly wasn’t when Jetstreams and American MD-11’s flew out of Kennedy (been at least 15 years).
shedsd330 is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 21:14
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 4,860
Originally Posted by Killaroo View Post
A little Commuter Jetstream appeared at the Holding Point on the opposite side of the runway and was given barked instructions to line up after a landing Air France A330 on short finals, and be ready immediate.
Originally Posted by shedsd330 View Post
GOBSMACKING! And also reeks of total rubbish or in New York talk ‘complete bull .’ Line up after landing traffic isn’t a legal clearance in US today and certainly wasn’t when Jetstreams and American MD-11’s flew out of Kennedy (been at least 15 years).
Yep, they don't do 'line up after landing traffic' in the U.S. And he didn't even start the yarn with 'Now, this is no s**t..."

Good story though...
Airbubba is online now  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 21:42
  #99 (permalink)  
Longtimelurker
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: killington Vt
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Yep, they don't do 'line up after landing traffic' in the U.S. And he didn't even start the yarn with 'Now, this is no s**t..."

Good story though...
No but although not recently I have been instructed "AAA 123 XXX on short final taxi into position and hold." I'm sure that wasn't procedure but they did do it at some busy airports.
filejw is online now  
Old 11th Dec 2017, 21:56
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by toilet flush View Post
EK could mitigate the risk by removing the rotating bid system and apply a true seniority bid system. Reward seniority and allow those who have stuck it out in EK over the years to bid what they want. Why force a 20 year Capt to do night turn to India, they should be able to bid what they can hold. Thus if a Capt want to fly to JFK 3 times a month, let them. If a 20 year Capt want to fly to SYD, then let them. EK then will have subject matter experts. Junior pilots accept this and its carrot to remain in EK as they know some day they will have a roster they can manage at 55 years old, not 5 night turns followed by a ULR to a destination they have never been to more desire to fly.
Flush your bright idea down the toilet - Rosters are bad at ek but no one does 5 night turns in a row be real! Plenty of incidents or accidents with senior ans old guys happened as well
Wingman82 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.